Date   

Re: Illinois Coal industry, was: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Southeastern Wyoming contains the Medicine Bow Range, Vedauwoo, Sherman Hill
and portions of other high plains mountains; all beautiful and a spectacular
setting for RR action. Southwestern Wyoming is "challenged" for "pretty"
scenery, but has some interesting RR backdrops, particularly as it approaches
the long drop into Utah. I wish I could have seen it while it was still in
steam!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
asychis@...
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 9:30 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Illinois Coal industry, was: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset
Twins



I don't think too many would call southeastern WY "pretty".

Now, now Mike. Speak for yourself! Maybe it's because I now live in the
Texas High Plains, but southeastern Wyoming is beautiful! All of Wyoming is
beautiful, it simply depends on your perspective. Following a FtW&D
freight north out of Cheyenne to Chugwater or a UP train over Sherman only
sweetens the deal.

Jerry Michels

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: missing instructions

Brian Ehni <behni@...>
 

I can send tonight, but if someone can fulfill his request soonerŠ

Thanks!
--

Brian P. Ehni




From: Gerald Glow <jerryglow@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:17:30 -0500
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] missing instructions








Does anyone happen to have the instructions from an Intermountain
ATSF
stock car? I seem to have lost mine. I can't find any on their site. A
PDF would probably work best.

TIA

--
Jerry Glow
The Villages FL
sent from a real computer - no I-anythings or any color berries


Re: Sloss-Sheffield Steel & Iron

water.kresse@...
 

Try the Hagley Museum in Greenville Delaware digital collections for photos . . . start with the AISI Collection and then check others.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Greene" <jason.p.greene@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:25:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sloss-Sheffield Steel & Iron

I have researched the railroad thoroughly. There is very little that has been written about this railroad. I have been working on a history, the Sloss Furnace Museum in Birmingham has the first edition, and have found very few pictures of the operation.

I have dug through old books on Birmingham and Sloss both. I have been to train shows looking for pictures. I have not had a chance to speak with Bob from Bob’s Photo because I can’t seem to get a working phone number for him. I have looked through several books and very little has shown up.

That is why I am looking for help. The railroad utilized nearly all second hand hoppers from what I can tell. I am hoping that some of you may have pictures or sources that may show cars being sold to Sloss. Company name followed this sequence: Sloss Company, Sloss-Sheffield Steel & Iron Co., US Pipe & Foundry Co., Jim Walter Industries, Jefferson Warrior and now it is Alabama Warrior.

Thank you for your help.

Jason Greene





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


missing instructions

jerryglow2
 

Does anyone happen to have the instructions from an Intermountain ATSF
stock car? I seem to have lost mine. I can't find any on their site. A
PDF would probably work best.

TIA

--
Jerry Glow
The Villages FL
sent from a real computer - no I-anythings or any color berries


Re: Illioins Coal industry, was :IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins

Andy Laurent
 

Al, the route on the waybill is the same...but the back half of that information was taken off the station stamps at the bottom of the bills. So, same route, different station/yard stops?

Andy L.

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

Am I mis-reading this, or are both shipments from the same shipper to the same receiver, by different routes?

-- confused --

-- Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Illinois Coal industry, was: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins

asychis@...
 

I don't think too many would call southeastern WY "pretty".

Now, now Mike. Speak for yourself! Maybe it's because I now live in the
Texas High Plains, but southeastern Wyoming is beautiful! All of Wyoming is
beautiful, it simply depends on your perspective. Following a FtW&D
freight north out of Cheyenne to Chugwater or a UP train over Sherman only
sweetens the deal.

Jerry Michels


Re: IC GS gons

 

I was fortunate to find an IC GS gon at a show. My plan is to make it into a "cob" loading gon (I know wrong group, because they were converted in the 60's) . When they were converted the drop doors were welded shut and the chain mechanisms removed.
 
Rich Christie

--- On Fri, 1/28/11, soolinehistory <destorzek@...> wrote:


From: soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
Subject: [STMFC] IC GS gons
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:10 AM


 





--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

Now I can use that D/A GS gon that I bought years ago (this kit is wrong for CN Enterprise-design GS gons) AND model an IC loco car carrying loco coal.

Serendipity?

Steve Lucas.
Not quite. The big problem with the Detail Associates GS gon for those of us who model the mid-west is DA only ever modeled the Enterprise "link" door mechanism. This featured custom roller chain style chain on the door closing shafts that wound over itself, looking like disks when the doors were closed.

Most of the mid-western roads used the somewhat older "chain" mechanisms, where standard logging chain style chain was wound around a worm gear shaped casting as it pulled the doors closed. A small point, but one that looks distinctly different.

Red Caboose made alternate shafts with a pretty decent rendition of the chain on the spiral castings that they packed in their IC, Soo Line, perhaps other kits, but I don't know if the parts were ever available separately. If so, I imagine they could be made to fit the DA car.

Dennis











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


IC GS gons

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

Now I can use that D/A GS gon that I bought years ago (this kit is wrong for CN Enterprise-design GS gons) AND model an IC loco car carrying loco coal.

Serendipity?

Steve Lucas.
Not quite. The big problem with the Detail Associates GS gon for those of us who model the mid-west is DA only ever modeled the Enterprise "link" door mechanism. This featured custom roller chain style chain on the door closing shafts that wound over itself, looking like disks when the doors were closed.

Most of the mid-western roads used the somewhat older "chain" mechanisms, where standard logging chain style chain was wound around a worm gear shaped casting as it pulled the doors closed. A small point, but one that looks distinctly different.

Red Caboose made alternate shafts with a pretty decent rendition of the chain on the spiral castings that they packed in their IC, Soo Line, perhaps other kits, but I don't know if the parts were ever available separately. If so, I imagine they could be made to fit the DA car.

Dennis


Re: Illinois Coal industry, was: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins

Benjamin Hom
 

Steve Lucas wrote:
"Ironically, were I modelling seven years earlier than 1956, I'd instead
need models of B&O hoppers that carried coal to Lindsay and Peterborough,
Ontario across Lake Ontario on the car-ferry from the former BR&P near
Rochester, NY! Of course, THOSE are available RTR... :("

In which plane of existence? I challenge you to produce said RTR B&O
hoppers - outside of the Class N-17 cars offered by Intermountain, there
aren't any on the market. Kadee won't offer B&O as one of their offset
twins because the great majority of the B&O's cars had Duryea cushion
underframes and end detail differences from their model. The huge Class
N-12 and subclasses aren't available in any form.


Ben Hom


Re: needed cars

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Tim--

I can only agree with your post. I consider myself very lucky to have a decent-paying job and other benefits that go with it. Even if I often find myself working nights and weekends.

Very respectfully, I think that if we collectively want a specifc STMFC, this is the time to ask for it. When you mention "diminshing returns", the likelihood of producing X-3 tank cars and IC hoppers, diminishes with each passing day, as the modelling demographic shifts to modellers that want more modern equipment than our STMFC's in RTR. Might an on-line survey and/or poll be of use in finding out what we want??

By the way, I'm one of those "average" modellers, born in 1960 myself. My exposure to steam has been (to mention a few) CN 6060, CP 1057, British Columbia Railway ex-CPR 4-6-4 2860, N&W 611, Cass Scenic, and the Huckleberry Railroad in Flint, MI.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Steve, as much as I'd like to see some of these steam era cars
made available in RTR plastic, like the X-3, I wonder if the law
of diminishing returns increasingly applies.

Consider, when the 'revolution' in freight car modeling really
built up steam was around 1990 -- now 20 years ago.

The era favored by most members of STMFC, 1940-1950, now starts
70 years ago! The "average" model railroader was born around 1960
at the present time, and never witnessed steam powered trains.

Consider: Intermountain's two biggest selling HO models represent
prototype freight cars first built around 1980 (Canadian cylindrical)
and 1970 (Pullman Standard), and they are both covered hoppers. The
third best selling model was built in the late 1940's (PFE reefer).

Athearn and Atlas and BLMA have all recently produced models whose
prototypes first appeared after 1990 -- Just as Irv Athearn produced
contemporary models in the 1960's, we may be seeing a return to that
idea, because the prototype cars will be around for a long time.

I was shocked to read that a high quality RTR freight car model is
only expected to sell 15,000 (more or less) copies. I mean, do the
math -- if there are 50,000 HO modelers out there, and maybe only
10% of them or less buy such a model? Is it the Great Recession or
something else at work? (Unemployment has impacted white 50+ year
old males more than twice as hard as other groups -- this is the
"sweet spot" of the model railroad market.)

Tim O'Connor


Re: Illinois Coal industry

Tim O'Connor
 

I have this vague memory, that I read somewhere that the
largest mine on the Wabash in the postwar era was somewhere
in Indiana, not Illinois... Does that ring a bell with anyone?

The Wabash for years 1937-1939 inclusive:

Bituminous Coal:

originated-and-terminated-on-line: 1,343,053 tons
originated-and-delivered-to-others: 1,186,661 tons
received-from-others-and-terminated-on-line: 6,136,093 tons
received-from-others-and-delivered-to-others: 2,383,201 tons
total 11,049,008 tons

Most of the above numbers are significantly depressed compared
to the period 1928-1930, reflecting the effect of the depressed
economy which didn't end until WWII.

I have data for the above categories for these years for Alton,
Wabash, C&EI, and CGW for coal, wheat, and corn, and partial data
for a number of other cargos.

I have ORIGINATING TONNAGE numbers for 17 cargo categories for
Illinois in 1937-1939 (and 1928-1930) for 12 railroads (Alton,
AT&SF, C&EI, C&NW, CB&Q, CGW, CMStP&P, CRI&P, IC, IT, TP&W, WABASH).

FYI -- total ORIGINATING TONNAGE for all commodities from Illinois:

1928-1930 -- 171,626,367 tons
1937-1939 -- 128,211,981 tons -- a 25% decline!

I can also tell you how many cars the B&O interchanged with 'western'
railroads at Chicago, Peoria, and St Louis annually 1937-1939... but I
digress.

Tim O'Connor

----------------------------------------------------------

From the WRHS, Coal on the Wabash by Mark Vaughn, from Illinois State Mine
Inspector's Annual Report

Millions of tons Originated:

1900: IC 5322, CBQ 1799, C&EI 1789, Wab 1586, NYC 1287
1910: IC 7488, CBQ 5096, NYC 3812, C&EI 3812, Wab 2906
1940: IC 8993, CBQ 6104, C&IM 5120, MP 4343, NYC 4159 Wab 1342
1950: IC 11533, C&IM 7384, CBQ 7003, MP 5312, NYC 3876 Wab 0.767
1960: IC 8390, CBQ 4850, MP 4599, NYC 4351, C&IM 3877 Wab 0

In 1947, Wabash received 13788 loads of mostly coal from the C&O at Toledo,
11571 from WLE, and 12133 from C&IM at Taylorville.

Allen Rueter
StLouis MO


Re: Illinois Coal industry, was: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Ray--

A number of other Canadian modellers of CN steam operation in Southern Ontario, as well as I, will--I'll go out on a limb by including them as in this asssertion--buy good RTR HO models of Illinois Central hoppers.

Ironically, were I modelling seven years earlier than 1956, I'd instead need models of B&O hoppers that carried coal to Lindsay and Peterborough, Ontario across Lake Ontario on the car-ferry from the former BR&P near Rochester, NY! Of course, THOSE are available RTR... :(

So it's more than "nine" of us that'd like to see these IC hoppers produced, and I'll buy good RTR X-3's and H21's, too, if they ever come out. I may be modelling a line east of Toronto, Ontario, but it's amazing just how many of these cars made it to Lindsay. A 1953 photo of a CN Consol at the engine terminal there has behind it...an IC hopper. Not to mention stuff in other Lindsay photos like a Southern Railway boxcar. (Geez...another car to build...)

I'm not holding my breath either, but we can dream, ask, and advocate for the models we want, can't we?

Let's keep trying!

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:

Tim O'Connor wrote:
IC owned more than 19,000 open hoppers in 1950, and a few
thousand gondolas too. This was about 40% of IC's freight
car fleet. IC operated in Kentucky and Tennessee, and
interchanged with many other coal haulers. IC's core
business has always been coal, just like the L&N.

Hi Tim,

Let's put the IC into sharper focus. In 1950, the IC owned the seventh largest fleet of open hoppers in North America, with 28,625 cars (12,678 of them being these short taper offsets). They had the 11th largest gondola fleet with 8582 cars, which were about evenly split between composite and all steel GS gons (with a few mill gons thrown in for fun). That's a grand total of over 37,000 coal carrying freight cars, not including the few hundred cars on the C&IW or on long term lease to the C&IM.

The IC operated in 14 states, and was a dominant road in over half of them. The road serviced hundreds of coal mines in IL, KY and TN, and at one time even served mines in IA, WI and IN. Coal from IC hoppers served most of the Commonwealth Edison powerplants in the Midwest, along with C&IM hoppers (the C&IM leased hoppers short term from the IC during peak seasons, as well as from the NYC). IC coal went EVERYWHERE, and especially on the N-S spine: engine coal in Canada, steel mills and power plants on the Great Lakes, and export coal in New Orleans.

Illinois has the third largest proven coal reserves in the USA, and in 1950 was churning out more coal than West Virginia (check the USGS Bureau of Mines report for 1950, available online). During the 1950s the world's largest strip mine was in Illinois (on the P&E).

By any metric, the IC was a MAJOR coal player, and in many areas was the DOMINANT one.


Unfortunately, we're running in the "odd little men playing choo-choo" syndrome here. The hobby is biased towards the coasts where the scenery is "pretty", rather than towards the rust belt where all of the action is. Even those few hearty souls who DO model the Midwest don't concentrate on the production centers or major mining operations, but on bridge traffic routes where reefers dominate. So nobody in the hobby even KNOWS about this traffic, let alone about the IC. If it wasn't for their Orange and Chocolate streamliners, nobody would even be modeling that road (although what I think is the world's largest home layout is all IC. HOW big is Bob Perrin's empire again?)

So I'm not holding my breath waiting for anything close to resembling IC hoppers to come out of the mass market manufacturers, so long as all they stare at are mountain railroads. I'll be happy with my Atlas and Accurail stand ins, with a few of Chad Boas' Red Caboose conversion kits thrown in for fun (thanks for those Chad!). I had three of Sunshine's IC twins at one time, but sold them; even Frank isn't about to build many of them for his freight car fleet, since he thinks he needs more than 30 of them. He MAY have one piece hoppers cast with cast-on grabs done if he can find someone to do the molds, but they're a few years away.

Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Re: Illinois Coal industry, was: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Now I can use that D/A GS gon that I bought years ago (this kit is wrong for CN Enterprise-design GS gons) AND model an IC loco car carrying loco coal.

Serendipity?

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Mike, the Red Caboose/Detail Associates GS gondolas are pretty
close to IC GS gondolas -- both steel and composite styles. I think
Red Caboose released models decorated for IC. So you really have no
excuse to have no IC "coal cars". :-)

Tim O'Connor

--------------------------------

I have to blame IC for the lack of model hoppers. Mike Brock


Re: Illinois Coal industry, was: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins

Tim O'Connor
 

Ray, this is starting to feel comical. Are we looking at the same
July 1950 Official Railway Equipment Register??

The "Total" listed in my copy is 53,640 cars. If I add up the tallies
of cars in your list below, I get 53,640.

So how did you get 56,516???

Tim O'Connor

Anyway, the 7/1950 ORER says that the IC had a total of 56,516 cars, broken down into
the following general categories:

X - 20,868
G - 6939 (the recapitulation in back says 6937)
H - 20,581
S - 1100
LO - 476
LP - 1161
F - 1498
R - 1017


Re: Sloss-Sheffield Steel & Iron

al_brown03
 

In the 1/43 ORER, US Pipe & Foundry (UPFX) is shown with three tank cars as their whole fleet. None of the companies listed appears in the 1/53 ORER. Were the hoppers not used in interchange?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

I have researched the railroad thoroughly. There is very little that has been written about this railroad. I have been working on a history, the Sloss Furnace Museum in Birmingham has the first edition, and have found very few pictures of the operation.

I have dug through old books on Birmingham and Sloss both. I have been to train shows looking for pictures. I have not had a chance to speak with Bob from Bob’s Photo because I can’t seem to get a working phone number for him. I have looked through several books and very little has shown up.

That is why I am looking for help. The railroad utilized nearly all second hand hoppers from what I can tell. I am hoping that some of you may have pictures or sources that may show cars being sold to Sloss. Company name followed this sequence: Sloss Company, Sloss-Sheffield Steel & Iron Co., US Pipe & Foundry Co., Jim Walter Industries, Jefferson Warrior and now it is Alabama Warrior.

Thank you for your help.

Jason Greene

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Illinois Coal industry

Allen Rueter
 

From the WRHS, Coal on the Wabash by Mark Vaughn, from Illinois State Mine
Inspector's Annual Report
Millions of tons Originated:
1900: IC 5322, CBQ 1799, C&EI 1789, Wab 1586, NYC 1287
1910: IC 7488, CBQ 5096, NYC 3812, C&EI 3812, Wab 2906
1940: IC 8993, CBQ 6104, C&IM 5120, MP 4343, NYC 4159,...Wab 1342
1950: IC 11533, C&IM 7384, CBQ 7003, MP 5312, NYC 3876, ..., Wab 0.767
1960: IC 8390, CBQ 4850, MP 4599, NYC 4351, C&IM 3877,...., Wab 0

In 1947, Wabash received 13788 loads of mostly coal from the C&O at Toledo,
11571 from WLE, and 12133 from C&IM at Taylorville.

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO




________________________________
From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 3:37:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Illinois Coal industry, was: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset
Twins


Tim O'Connor wrote:
IC owned more than 19,000 open hoppers in 1950, and a few
thousand gondolas too. This was about 40% of IC's freight
car fleet. IC operated in Kentucky and Tennessee, and
interchanged with many other coal haulers. IC's core
business has always been coal, just like the L&N.
Hi Tim,

Let's put the IC into sharper focus. In 1950, the IC owned the seventh largest
fleet of open hoppers in North America, with 28,625 cars (12,678 of them being
these short taper offsets). They had the 11th largest gondola fleet with 8582
cars, which were about evenly split between composite and all steel GS gons
(with a few mill gons thrown in for fun). That's a grand total of over 37,000
coal carrying freight cars, not including the few hundred cars on the C&IW or on
long term lease to the C&IM.

The IC operated in 14 states, and was a dominant road in over half of them. The
road serviced hundreds of coal mines in IL, KY and TN, and at one time even
served mines in IA, WI and IN. Coal from IC hoppers served most of the
Commonwealth Edison powerplants in the Midwest, along with C&IM hoppers (the
C&IM leased hoppers short term from the IC during peak seasons, as well as from
the NYC). IC coal went EVERYWHERE, and especially on the N-S spine: engine coal
in Canada, steel mills and power plants on the Great Lakes, and export coal in
New Orleans.

Illinois has the third largest proven coal reserves in the USA, and in 1950 was
churning out more coal than West Virginia (check the USGS Bureau of Mines report
for 1950, available online). During the 1950s the world's largest strip mine was
in Illinois (on the P&E).

By any metric, the IC was a MAJOR coal player, and in many areas was the
DOMINANT one.

Unfortunately, we're running in the "odd little men playing choo-choo" syndrome
here. The hobby is biased towards the coasts where the scenery is "pretty",
rather than towards the rust belt where all of the action is. Even those few
hearty souls who DO model the Midwest don't concentrate on the production
centers or major mining operations, but on bridge traffic routes where reefers
dominate. So nobody in the hobby even KNOWS about this traffic, let alone about
the IC. If it wasn't for their Orange and Chocolate streamliners, nobody would
even be modeling that road (although what I think is the world's largest home
layout is all IC. HOW big is Bob Perrin's empire again?)

So I'm not holding my breath waiting for anything close to resembling IC hoppers
to come out of the mass market manufacturers, so long as all they stare at are
mountain railroads. I'll be happy with my Atlas and Accurail stand ins, with a
few of Chad Boas' Red Caboose conversion kits thrown in for fun (thanks for
those Chad!). I had three of Sunshine's IC twins at one time, but sold them;
even Frank isn't about to build many of them for his freight car fleet, since he
thinks he needs more than 30 of them. He MAY have one piece hoppers cast with
cast-on grabs done if he can find someone to do the molds, but they're a few
years away.

Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Sloss-Sheffield Steel & Iron

Jason Greene
 

I have researched the railroad thoroughly. There is very little that has been written about this railroad. I have been working on a history, the Sloss Furnace Museum in Birmingham has the first edition, and have found very few pictures of the operation.

I have dug through old books on Birmingham and Sloss both. I have been to train shows looking for pictures. I have not had a chance to speak with Bob from Bob’s Photo because I can’t seem to get a working phone number for him. I have looked through several books and very little has shown up.

That is why I am looking for help. The railroad utilized nearly all second hand hoppers from what I can tell. I am hoping that some of you may have pictures or sources that may show cars being sold to Sloss. Company name followed this sequence: Sloss Company, Sloss-Sheffield Steel & Iron Co., US Pipe & Foundry Co., Jim Walter Industries, Jefferson Warrior and now it is Alabama Warrior.

Thank you for your help.

Jason Greene


Steam & Transition Era Layouts Available To Tour (So. Calif.) Feb. 17-20

Bob C <thecitrusbelt@...>
 

If you live in Southern California here is an opportunity for you to see steam and transition era model railroads and meet some great layout owners. Some of the layouts include:

Rick Graves – Rick models the Tehachapi Loop in the spring of 1950. His layout completely occupies a 14' x 12' spare bedroom. The layout is DCC controlled (Digitrax) and the locomotives are sound equipped. Rick runs run both steam and diesel appropriate to the Santa Fe and Southern Pacific motive power in use over the line at that time. One interesting and extremely well done feature of this layout is the use of shallow relief hills to duplicate the Tehachapi loop area. The hills are painted and sceniced using a shading technique which gives them depth well beyond their quarter-inch thickness. Up to five trains are staged behind the hills and in other areas to allow a parade of Southern Pacific and Santa Fe consists typical for the time modeled. Rick's layout was featured in Great Model Railroads 2009 published by Kalmbach Publishing Co., publisher of MODEL RAILROADER

Bob Grech – Bob Grech's Western Pacific layout is a prime example of how excellence can be achieved in a fairly small space. Bob is modeling a free lance railroad set in the years 1935-37 that happens to use the name of the well-know Western railroad. The primary commodities hauled by the railroad include coal and lumber, with the coal industry modeled from the mine to harbor-side loading facilities. This HO scale layout originally occupied a 10' x 12' spare bedroom. Bob moved it to a newly-constructed room measuring 28' x 18'. Scenery is about ninety percent complete and features two new dramatic waterfalls. He also has added a large classification yard and turntable. Trains require more than fourteen minutes to make a complete loop on the new 350-foot long mainline. Almost all the structures are scratch-built of wood, have interior detailing and lighting, and reflect careful attention to weathering. Several structures feature live sound and lighting effects, including a gun fight in the town saloon. All track is hand-laid Code 83 and 70 on real wood ties. Bob's WP was the Third Place winner in MODEL RAILROADER's 2006 Small Layout contest and was featured in the November issue that same year. Website: http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g300/engineerbob/

Mike Murphy – This layout is located in a dedicated 26' x 30' room and features many nice structures, including an 18-stall roundhouse. It's a free lanced transition era railroad featuring Santa Fe, Southern Pacific and Union Pacific trains and operations. At prototypical speeds a train requires thirty-five minutes to travel the mainline. Several branch lines and a fiddle/staging yard feed the mainline operations. Mike's has incorporated many details to give the various layout scenes a very realistic feeling. The layout features a detailed backdrop, weathered structures and an expansive harbor area with a dock, sea wall, dredge and other marine features.

Larry Stark – The Lariat Lines represent a fictitious Southern California short line connecting with a major Class 1 transcontinental railroad. Incorporated in 1926, the Lariat Lines utilizes existing Southern Pacific trackage through the San Fernando Valley and Los Angeles. It is the summer of 1937 and having survived the Great Depression, this cash-strapped short line still leases most of its road power but owns some cabooses and locos. Service to nineteen industries provided a good traffic base for generating sufficient cash flow which sustained the Lariat Lines through the Depression. The railroad is 12' x 17' and located in a converted garage. The design features a duck under and twice around route with Code 83 track glued to Micor which was then glued to ¾" plywood. The track plan features hidden storage tracks, a fifteen-foot long yard and an interchange. A center peninsula is planned but not yet started. Eventually the short line will connect to a harbor via the peninsula. After six months in design and six years of construction wiring and track are now approximately ninety percent complete. All fifty-two Tortoise-powered turnouts are No. 6s, with the points "wired around'. Traditional block wiring includes about 1 mile of wire. The 130 foot mainline has minimum 30" radius curves, five cab controls, three of which are tethered walk-arounds. The railroad eventually will operate with a car card system. All steam and cabooses are brass and the freight cars are brass, resin or craftsman kits. Near term goals are to have car card forwarding and DCC systems in place before the February tour.

Jay Styron – This layout occupies a fully finished room built under Jay's house for the railroad. He has recreated the Southern Pacific's Friant Branch in the Fresno, California, area. The design of the layout includes careful consideration of aisle space, layout access, storage and lighting. Industries modeled include wineries and fruit packing houses. Over the past year, the Fresno staging yard has been redesigned and reconstructed with the addition of a turntable and small engine terminal. Operations are DCC controlled.

The tour is sponsored by Model Railroads Of Southern California (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Model_Railroads_Of_Southern_California/
). This is our twenty-third layout tour on Thursday through Sunday, February 17-20. This will be a free self-guided tour of fifty layouts (twenty eight home and twenty-two club layouts) at forty-seven sites throughout Southern California.

By scale and gauge, there will be twenty-eight HO scale standard gauge layouts, nine N scale layouts, two O scale layouts, three HO scale narrow gauge layouts, four O scale narrow gauge layouts, two S scale narrow gauge layouts and two live steam facilities. The details for this free tour are available now in the Model Railroads Of Southern California Files Section (for members), including complete descriptions and two maps for every layout. Below is a basic schedule for all 50 layouts with the scale noted. If you wish to receive a schedule with descriptions for all 50 layouts (nearly 30 pages in length), please contact me at chiefbobbb@... .

HOME LAYOUTS

Marty Bradley (HO)
Sat. 12:00 to 6:00
Sun. 10:00 to 4:00
11802 Davenport Road, Los Alamitos

John Bruce (HO)
Fri. & Sat. 12:00 to 3:00
2327 Nella Vista Avenue, Los Angeles

Al Daumann (HO)
Sat. 1:00 to 5:00
443 Valley Gate Road, Simi Valley

Tim Dickinson (HO)
Sun. 10:00 to 5:00
1002 Eastglen Drive, La Verne

Joe Enos (HO)
Thur. to Sun. 12:00 to 5:00
2808 Ashmont Avenue, Arcadia

Jeff Gorjans (HO)
Sat. 12:00 to 6:00
1251 Calle Estrella, San Dimas

Rick Graves (HO)
Fri. 1:00 to 6:00
5212 Redwillow Lane
La Canada

Bob Grech (HO)
Sat. 11:00 to 6:00
17302 Elm Street, Fountain Valley

Steve Harris (HOn3)
Thur. 10:00 to 4:00
Sun. 12:00 to 5:00
12424 Sierra Rojo Rd., Valley Center

Mike Komosinski (N)
Sun. 10:00 to 3:00
12315 Banuelo Cove, San Diego

Jim Lancaster (HO)
Thur. 1:00 to 5:00
Fri. 1:00 to 5:00
14241 Galy Street, Tustin

Lloyd Lehrer (HO/HOn3)
Fri. 1:00 to 6:00
401 9th Street, Manhattan Beach

Burton Maxwell (HOn3)
Sun. 1:00 to 5:00
318 Rose View Place, Chula Vista

Jeff McKee (On3)
Thur. 3:00 to 8:00
Sat. 10:00 to 4:00
21271 Bristlecone, Mission Viejo

Mike Murphy (HO)
Sat. 10:00 to 4:00
13015 Rancho Vista Court,
Santa Rosa Valley (Camarillo)

Jim O'Connell (N)
Sun. 10:00 to 3:00
7467 Mission Gorge Rd., #80 On Fernridge,
Santee

Mike Osborne (HO)
Sat. 12:00 to 6:00
24460 Shadeland Dr., Newhall

Doug Ramos (On3)
Fri. 12:00 to 3:00
Sat. 12:00 to 6:00
4236 Inverness Dr., Corona

Randy Scott (On3)
Sat. 10:00 to 5:00
7908 E. Horseshoe Trail, Orange

Joel Shank (Sn3)
Thur. 11:00 to 4:00
Sun. 1:00 to 5:00
5005 Highway 115, Brawley

Ron Sipkovich (N)
Sat. 1:00 to 6:00
24121 Becard Drive, Laguna Niguel

Jim Spencer (HO)
Sat. 12:00 to 6:00
424 California Terrace, Pasadena

Larry Stark (HO)
Fri. & Sat. 12:00 to 4:00
922 E. Palm Street, Burbank

Larry Stewart (HO)
Sat. 9:00 to 4:00
23226 Dune Mear Road, Lake Forest

Jay Styron (HO)
Sun. 12:00 to 5:00
1647 Colina Vista, Fallbrook

Dick Trotter (HO)
Sat. 12:00 to 4:00
9245 Rock Acre Drive, Lakeside

Ron Varnell (HO)
Thur. & Fri. 12:00 to 8:00
2741 Plaza Del Amo, Suite 211, Torrance

Al Wallace (HO)
Thur. 1:00 to 5:00
Fri. & Sat. 12:00 to 5:00
2146 Countryman Lane, La Canada

CLUB LAYOUTS

Angels Gate Hi-Railers (O)
Sat. 10:00 to 4:00
3601 South Gaffey Street, San Pedro
(Angels Gate Park)

Belmont Shore MRC (N)
Sat. 12:00 to 4:00
3601 South Gaffey Street, San Pedro
(Angels Gate Park)

Coachella Valley Model Railroaders (HO)
Fri. – Sun. 10:00 to 9:30
82503 Hwy 111, Indio
(Riverside County Fairgrounds)

Glendale Model RR Club (HO)
Sun. 12:00 to 6:00
619 Hahn Avenue, Glendale

Highland Park Soc. Of RR Engineers (HO)
Sat. 12:00 to 5:00
854 E Broadway, San Gabriel

La Mesa Model RR Club (HO)
Sat. & Sun. 11:00 to 4:00
1649 El Prado, San Diego
(Balboa Park)

Los Angeles Live Steamers (7½", 4¾", 3½")
Sun. 11:00 to 4:00
5202 Zoo Drive, Los Angeles

Los Angeles Model Railroad Society (HO)
Sun. 10:00 to 4:00
14005 S. Crenshaw Boulevard, Unit G, Hawthorne

N-Land Pacific Model RR Club (N )
Thur. 1:00 to 5:00
Fri. 12:00 to 6:00
Sat. 12:00 to 6:00
Sun. 10:00 to 5:00
1495 W. 9th Street, Unit 501, Upland

North County Model Railroad Society (HO)
Sun. 12:00 to 5:00
1820 Oceanside Blvd., Oceanside
(Above Boney's Market)

Pasadena Model Railroad Club (HO)
Sat. 1:00 to 5:00
5458 Alhambra Ave., Los Angeles

Poway Station (N)
Sun. 12:00 to 4:00
14134 Midland Road, Poway

San Diego 3-Railers O
Sat. & Sun. 11:00 to 4:00
1649 El Prado, San Diego
(Balboa Park)

San Diego Model RR Assoc. (HO & O)
Sat. & Sun. 11:00 to 4:00
1649 El Prado, San Diego
(Balboa Park)

San Diego Society of N Scale (N)
Sat. & Sun. 11:00 to 4:00
1649 El Prado, San Diego
(Balboa Park)

Santa Susana Model Railroad Club (HO)
Sat. & Sun. 12:00 to 4:00
6503 Katherine Road, Simi Valley

Short Track Club (N + N)
Sun. 10:00 to 4:00
2040 N. Santa Fe Ave., Vista

The Slim Gauge Guild (Sn3, HOn3)
Thur. Evening (Symposium Attendees Only)
300 S. Raymond Ave., Pasadena

Southern California Live Steamers (Live Steam)
Sat. 12:00 to 3:00
2100 Washington Ave., Torrance

NOTES:
Please observe individual hours of operation for the layouts. No smoking at any of the layouts.
Information current as of 1-23-11
Coachella Valley Model Railroaders – Admission required to Riverside Co. Fairgrounds/National Date Festival
Lloyd Lehrer – Upstairs location. Parking limited to two cars at a time or up at end of block.
Randy Scott – Gated community. All guests must enter at the Chapman Ave entrance, just west of Newport Ave. (Note: If you use your navigation system, it will lead you to the wrong entrance!) There is a call box on the left. Scroll through the directory until you see "Scott, R." and then push CALL. Randy will buzz you in.
San Diego Model Railroad Museum – Admission required to Museum where La Mesa San Diego 3-Railers, San Diego Model RR Assoc., and San Diego Society of N Scale clubs are located.
Slim Gauge Guild – As of 1/23/1 this club will only be open to Sn3 Symposium attendees. Check website for change in status.

Persons taking this tour assume all risks and liability for their personal safety. Although I am the Moderator of this group, I am not responsible for personal loss or injury to those taking this tour.

Be sure to check the Files Section and the group website the day before the tour to see if any changes to the schedule or layout lineup have occurred.

If you cannot make this tour, more tours are being planned, including a Riverside-San Bernardino tour on March 19 of this year.

If you wish to open your home layout for an upcoming tour, please contact me off list.

Bob Chaparro
Moderator
Model Railroads Of Southern California
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Model_Railroads_Of_Southern_California/


Re: Illinois Coal industry, was: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins

Ray Breyer
 

Hi Tim,
I'll double check the ORER when I get home tonight. For the
record, I did a complete car type count of the 1919, 1930
and 1950 ORERs several years ago, which is where my numbers
came from.
My list includes 62,153 IC cars, including 21,248 X, 28,625
H, 8582 G, 1362 F, 1117 S, 202 L, and 1017 R classified
cars.
Regards,
Ray Breyer

Hi again Tim,

Wow, were my numbers off. Guess I need to ash-can them and do a recount! (I may have gotten the numbers from the IC's 1/1951 list of stations & equipment. A quick check shows the boxcar tallies to be nearly identical)

Anyway, the 7/1950 ORER says that the IC had a total of 56,516 cars, broken down into the following general categories:

X - 20,868
G - 6939 (the recapitulation in back says 6937)
H - 20,581
S - 1100
LO - 476
LP - 1161
F - 1498
R - 1017

13,175 of their hoppers were the chisel-side cars we were talking about, which was a pretty hefty number. That figure is actually a bit higher, but these are all identical cars. If my other numbers aren't all messed up as well, that still gives the IC the seventh largest hopper fleet (#6 as the B&O with 33,706 and #8 being the Reading, with 16,627).

So I still don't see why we can't see one of these cars mass-produced, especially considering all of the FAR more unique cars we can get these days in plastic. But I suppose I'm just venting; I have no idea how manufacturers pick what they pick to make, but it sure doesn't seem like they listen to the heartland modelers. All nine of us.

Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Re: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins - Other Roads

David Sieber
 

Gentlem,

Agree completely that the UTLX X-3 (X-4,X-5), AAR Alternate Standard, and IC and similar nonstandard offset side twin hoppers would be welcome. I also hope that some manufacturer does them, despite the lack of colorful roadnames and the unfortunate likely inability of non-RPM buyers to perceive enough differences from what's already on the market to make them desirable, marketable, and profitable.

Reading Dennis' comments carefully, he did not categorize the IC and similar hoppers as AAR Standard, but noted they were of similar size, with straight top chords and with what's been termed "chiseled" or "stepped" rather than smoothly tapered ends on the sides. To me, the most obvious visual differences that distinguish an AAR Standard vs. Alternate Standard vs. nonstandard all-steel offset twin hopper is the construction/configuration of the sides *between* the bolsters.

The IC twin has sides between the bolsters comprised of 3 sheets mounted on only 7 evenly spaced hat-shaped side stakes, with double rivets, paired on heavy exterior rivet panels on the side at the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th side stakes, and with zig-zagged double riveting at the 2nd, 4th, and 6th side stakes. See photo (ignoring the top extension) at http://gelwood.railfan.net/ic/ic80142alx.jpg

Compare this to the AAR Alternate Standard twin offset hopper's sides between the bolsters that are 2 sheets mounted to 9 evenly spaced hat-shaped side stakes with double rivets, paired on exterior rivet panels at the 1st, 5th, and 9th side stakes, and zig-zagged at the intermediate side stakes. I don't have a good photo link or photos for which I have the rights, but here's a diagram:
http://research.nprha.org/NP%20Hopper%20Cars/Hopper%20Cars%2070200.jpg

On the other hand, the AAR Standard twin has offset sides between bolsters that are also 2 sheets, but mounted to 9 unevenly spaced L-shaped side stakes with single rivets, even on the overlapped center joint between the 2 side panels; this presents a smooth appearance in comparison to the protruding separate rivet panels on the sides of both the Alternate and IC-style twins. As others have noted, the ends of the sides are evenly tapered, with tapered top chords. Again, I found no good prototype photo link; just pick up any Kadee twin hopper, or Accurail 7700-series, or Athearn, or Train-Miniature, etc.

Perhaps the best source of great photos and detailed information on classic 50-ton offset side twin hoppers is the extensive series of articles in RP Cycs; unfortunately, several issues are out of print.

Regards, Dave Sieber, Reno NV

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