Date   

Re: Kadee PS-1s

Tim O'Connor
 

Dave, I think some of the expanded metal rb's were TRANSCO rather
than GYPSUM*. Unfortunately, as far as I know the etched TRANSCO rb's
from Plano only fit the Intermountain PFE and SFRD ice reefers.

Tim O'Connor

* e.g. ATSF Bx-57


Three prime examples from my replace-the-running-boards bin: Kadee #s 4822, 4917 & 4924, as WP 19521, 21068 & 20834 respectively; the prototypes were built 10-51 in PS lot#8027, all with Morton Open-Grip (round-hole) running boards. The WP was one of several roads that specified Morton running boards for most boxcars. Unfortunately, Kadee hasn't tooled any of the common transition era alternatives to their beautiful Apex running board, which also could stand in for Blaw-Knox, late Gypsum, and Kerrigan. Kadee puts Apexes on all their boxcars, even where incorrect for the prototype. Other roads who reportedly received 40ft PS-1s with either Morton or early Gypsum (expanded metal honeycomb) running boards included: ATSF, BS, C&EI, C&O, CGW, CIL, D&H, DL&W, FDDM&S, KCS, L&N, LS&I, LV, MSC, N&W, NC&StL, NYS&W, RF&P, RI, SA. SAL, SLSF, SRR (& subsidiaries), SSW, UP, and USAX. Reference: "Pullman-Standard PS-1 40' Box Car List" by Ed Hawkins at http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/
frtcars/protofrtcarsmain.html
Happily, Plano makes both the Morton and early Gypsum running boards, leaving us only to match Kadee's paint - or weather the car heavily.
Regards, Dave Sieber, Reno NV


Re: B&O Wagontop

rwitt_2000
 

To the Group,

What Bruce stated is what I always believed to be the case until about 6
months ago I purchased an Al Armitage print of a as-built M-53 (#381303)
in service still lettered with "NEW-9-37" that does not have the Kuhler
emblem on the left side of the door. So now the early use and placement
of the Kuhler emblem on B&O boxcars is less clear. So based on this
single photo I will have to say the FVM lettering appears correct, but
for what batch of cars and how many remains unknown.

I believe the post-WWII "13 States" cars should be painted oxide red not
the earlier dark brown. Maybe Ed Hawkins can find the bill of materials
to verify the paint specifications for the 500 class M-58a built by AC&F
in 1947 for the B&O.

Regards,

Bob Witt

Bruce Smith replied:

Are you referring to the plain B&O capital dome that is seen on the
left
side of these cars? Yep, it is missing from the artwork! But hey,
that's what decals are for ;^) and at least this baby comes with the
correct flat panel door for those of us who want the original
configuration...

Gene Green wrote:
I immediately pulled out RP CYC #9 to compare FVM
illustrations with the photos in the M53 article. It appears to me
that
the as-delivered scheme is missing a small round emblem to the left of
the door. What am I missing?


Re: B&O Wagontop

Andy Harman
 

At 04:53 PM 1/28/2011 +0000, you wrote:

Apparently Matt at Fox Valley Models has announced a new B&O wagontop boxcar in N and HO scales.
How many M-53s have been done? Sunshine, F&C, who else? This is the first in styrene I think.

Andy


Re: GS gons

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:


I wondered about the strength of the side assemblies get the loads thru the body bolster when being clamped in a dumper and then tilted or rotated.  The earlier cars had very rigid, continuous stable timbers along their side assemblies.  With a steel side structure we are looking beams and shear plates to handle these loads.

Here is the link to the image I wanted earlier:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/9682?size=_original

I'm sure these dumpers were hard on the cars, that seems to be a recurring comment that the Salida dumper did a lot of damage to the top plank of the D&RGW NG cars.


Re: IC GS gons

water.kresse@...
 

David,



I wondered about the strength of the side assemblies get the loads thru the body bolster when being clamped in a dumper and then tilted or rotated.  The earlier cars had very rigid, continuous stable timbers along their side assemblies.  With a steel side structure we are looking beams and shear plates to handle these loads.



Was there an angular center sill cap to divert the coal thru the openings or was it flat a foot plus across?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "jaydeet2001" <jaydeet2001@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:50:14 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: IC GS gons

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:

The 1905 era gons with drop doors didn't have doors over the trucks, so weren't "self clearing" and still required men to shovel about half the load out through the doors.
That depends on the car in question. The Ralston GS gons certainly did have doors over the trucks, as did some Cambria cars of that era.

The broader point about the volume used by the customer is valid, though it should be tempered by era. The stereotypical GS gondola with a full complement of drop doors appeared just after 1900 (once steel framing made it practical), and initially found buyers in coastal New England, the Midwest, and most roads that made it to the Pacific. After 1915 or so, the range of purchasers steadily retreated westward so that the Pacific roads were about the only large buyers after 1950.

David Thompson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: IC GS gons

David
 

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:

The 1905 era gons with drop doors didn't have doors over the trucks, so weren't "self clearing" and still required men to shovel about half the load out through the doors.
That depends on the car in question. The Ralston GS gons certainly did have doors over the trucks, as did some Cambria cars of that era.

The broader point about the volume used by the customer is valid, though it should be tempered by era. The stereotypical GS gondola with a full complement of drop doors appeared just after 1900 (once steel framing made it practical), and initially found buyers in coastal New England, the Midwest, and most roads that made it to the Pacific. After 1915 or so, the range of purchasers steadily retreated westward so that the Pacific roads were about the only large buyers after 1950.

David Thompson


Re: FVM to do the B&O wagontop in HO & N

Q1xaMacArthur1@...
 

That looks like it will be a nice model in either HO or N
if the do it right.

If you look at that prototype photo you can see the Tatum slack
adjuster there on the right side sill of car near the truck at E end.

On their artwork it appears to be on the left side of car there
near left end just below the side sill.

I hope this is just an error in the artwork. I know the B&O didn't
have those on both sides.

The early scheme they offer would be for cars as built new
in 1937-38. And then they jump to post war with the Linking
13 Great States logo. Nothing for the WWII era.

Ed Kirstatter,
B&O Modeler.

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Re: B&O Wagontop

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Marty, no I was asking about the plain B&O capital dome in a circle.

Bruce, thanks for confirming that the plain B&O capital dome should be on the cars in the as-delivered scheme.

And Denis, good to know a source of decals is available.

Finally, would the second Fox Valley paint scheme have been in use before 1950? If I understood a caption in RP Cyc 9 correctly, it would have.

Gene Green


Re: B&O Wagontop

seaboard_1966
 

Let me remind folks that WrightTRAK has custom decals for these M53's that cover ALL the paintschemes as applied to these cars.


Denis Blake




2011 Central Ohio Prototype Modelers Meet, May 19-21

http://www.facebook.com/pages/manage/#!/pages/Central-Ohio-Prototype-Modelers-Meet/326645470797

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Smith
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 7:10 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: B&O Wagontop

Gene,

Are you referring to the plain B&O capital dome that is seen on the left
side of these cars? Yep, it is missing from the artwork! But hey,
that's what decals are for ;^) and at least this baby comes with the
correct flat panel door for those of us who want the original
configuration...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

"Gene" <bierglaeser@...> 01/28/11 3:14 PM >>>
Three of the B&O M53 box cars show up on the Landmesser hot box list so
I "need" some. I immediately pulled out RP CYC #9 to compare FVM
illustrations with the photos in the M53 article. It appears to me that
the as-delivered scheme is missing a small round emblem to the left of
the door. What am I missing?
Gene Green



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Re: B&O Wagontop

Bruce Smith
 

Gene,

Are you referring to the plain B&O capital dome that is seen on the left
side of these cars? Yep, it is missing from the artwork! But hey,
that's what decals are for ;^) and at least this baby comes with the
correct flat panel door for those of us who want the original
configuration...

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

"Gene" <bierglaeser@...> 01/28/11 3:14 PM >>>
Three of the B&O M53 box cars show up on the Landmesser hot box list so
I "need" some. I immediately pulled out RP CYC #9 to compare FVM
illustrations with the photos in the M53 article. It appears to me that
the as-delivered scheme is missing a small round emblem to the left of
the door. What am I missing?
Gene Green



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Kadee PS-1s (was B&O twin offsets)(was Illinois Coal industry)

Benjamin Hom
 

Dave Sieber wrote:
"Three prime examples from my replace-the-running-boards bin: Kadee #s 4822,
4917 & 4924, as WP 19521, 21068 & 20834 respectively; the prototypes were
built 10-51 in PS lot#8027, all with Morton Open-Grip (round-hole) running
boards. The WP was one of several roads that specified Morton running boards
for most boxcars. Unfortunately, Kadee hasn't tooled any of the common
transition era alternatives to their beautiful Apex running board, which
also could stand in for Blaw-Knox, late Gypsum, and Kerrigan. Kadee puts
Apexes on all their boxcars, even where incorrect for the prototype. Other
roads who reportedly received 40ft PS-1s with either Morton or early Gypsum
(expanded metal honeycomb) running boards included: ATSF, BS, C&EI, C&O,
CGW, CIL, D&H, DL&W, FDDM&S, KCS, L&N, LS&I, LV, MSC, N&W, NC&StL, NYS&W,
RF&P, RI, SA. SAL, SLSF, SRR (& subsidiaries), SSW, UP, and USAX. Reference:
"Pullman-Standard PS-1 40' Box Car List" by Ed Hawkins at
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/protofrtcarsmain.html
Happily, Plano makes both the Morton and early Gypsum running boards,
leaving us only to match Kadee's paint - or weather the car heavily."

Dave, thanks for sharing your work. It's much more helpful than responding
"Do your own research."


Ben Hom


Re: Incorrect Kadee PS-2 covered hoppers

rwitt_2000
 

Plain bearing trucks are correct for the as-built B&O PS-2 offered by
Kadee.

Bob Witt

Larry Kline wrote:

The plain bearing trucks on Kadee 8632, P&WV Road #1955, are correct.

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Oh and I forgot, every one of the Kadee PS-2 covered hoppers to date
with plain bearing trucks, has the wrong trucks.


Re: B&O Wagontop

Marty McGuirk
 

Gene,

If the lettering you're referring to is a small round "T" in a circle to the left of the number that indicates the car is suitable for B&O LCL "T"imesaver service.

So it wouldn't have been on every car.

Marty

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

Three of the B&O M53 box cars show up on the Landmesser hot box list so I "need" some. I immediately pulled out RP CYC #9 to compare FVM illustrations with the photos in the M53 article. It appears to me that the as-delivered scheme is missing a small round emblem to the left of the door. What am I missing?
Gene Green


Mather Reefer Photos

Richard Hendrickson
 

The first photo I sent of RPRX 571 was taken at Fayetteville, NC by
Col. Chet McCoid in 10/51 (Bob's Photo Collection). The photo below
of MUNX 3483 was taken in 1940 and is from the Joe Collias
collection. The photo of HPAX 1415 is one I think you are familiar
with, as it is was taken at the Decker packing plant and the photo
was retouched to show "Decker" on the side. However, the HPAX
reporting marks and number 1415 are visible on the end.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Mathers reefer info needed

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 28, 2011, at 1:33 PM, Clark and Eileen wrote:

I have a friend that models in 1 1/2" gauge, he's building a
Mathers reefer and has some questions I how you fellas can answer?
So I can pass them along to him and take the credit of course : )
Any help is greatly appreciated !
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

"Mather Car company leased a fleet of 37 foot Meat cars to Rath
Packing co.- I got lots of pictures of sides of cars- the model in
question is a 800 series numbered car with what appears to be
tar/canvas roof with some type lap seam boards---anyone have photo
showing any parts of roof, roof walk-running boards -Ice hatch
covers?"

"I have a HO Red Caboose car kit-about useless to determine car
details on a model 12 times bigger...additional confusion---some
cars seem to have a sheet metal roof -but most of those, also have
been upgraded with dreadnought ends--I am building the early model-
with four vertical "Z" bar ends.
Your thoughts?"
Clark, I'd be curious where Bob got "lots of pictures" of the 37'
Mather reefers in Rath service. I was a consultant to Red Caboose on
the HO scale model and found very few photos of the 37' cars, though
photos of the 42' cars were numerous.

Bob doesn't indicate what date he wants to model, but as of 1/53 the
37' RPRX cars were in the 600-999 number series (205 cars) and the
1000-1099 series (40 cars).

I have only one good photo of a Rath 37' Mather reefer, taken in
10/51, and it doesn't show the roof very clearly but there's no
question that the roof is a Mather Patent metal sheathed roof.
I do have two high angle photos of other Mather 37' reefers, one with
Mather's own MUNX reporting marks and the other with Hunter Packing
Co. HPAX reporting marks, and they clearly show the Mather Patent
roof as well as the arrangement of running board and hatch covers.
FWIW, tar/canvas roofs were largely a 19th century phenomenon.
Mather reefers were all built with Mather patent metal roofs and kept
them through the 1940s and '50s. Another point: the 37' cars were
never rebuilt with Dreadnaught ends; only the 42' cars got postwar
Dreadnaught ends in the early 1950s.

Photos to follow off-list.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Kadee PS-1s (was B&O twin offsets)(was Illinois Coal industry)

David Sieber
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor wrote: "Many of the PS-1 box cars have incorrect running boards" and Benjamin Hom wrote:
"Which PS-1s? Which road names?"

Gentlemen,
Three prime examples from my replace-the-running-boards bin: Kadee #s 4822, 4917 & 4924, as WP 19521, 21068 & 20834 respectively; the prototypes were built 10-51 in PS lot#8027, all with Morton Open-Grip (round-hole) running boards. The WP was one of several roads that specified Morton running boards for most boxcars. Unfortunately, Kadee hasn't tooled any of the common transition era alternatives to their beautiful Apex running board, which also could stand in for Blaw-Knox, late Gypsum, and Kerrigan. Kadee puts Apexes on all their boxcars, even where incorrect for the prototype. Other roads who reportedly received 40ft PS-1s with either Morton or early Gypsum (expanded metal honeycomb) running boards included: ATSF, BS, C&EI, C&O, CGW, CIL, D&H, DL&W, FDDM&S, KCS, L&N, LS&I, LV, MSC, N&W, NC&StL, NYS&W, RF&P, RI, SA. SAL, SLSF, SRR (& subsidiaries), SSW, UP, and USAX. Reference: "Pullman-Standard PS-1 40' Box Car List" by Ed Hawkins at http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/protofrtcarsmain.html
Happily, Plano makes both the Morton and early Gypsum running boards, leaving us only to match Kadee's paint - or weather the car heavily.
Regards, Dave Sieber, Reno NV


Re: IC GS gons

water.kresse@...
 

Dennis, Thanks for the short and logical historical update.  Al

----- Original Message -----
From: "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 4:30:51 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: IC GS gons



--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



So the goal is higher utilization of empties on the return trips?  If you look at the coal cars going up to Toledo, at best, a sixth of came back down with iron ore and every so often some few more with limestone.



Can you put these cars through a lift and tilt or rotary dumper?



Al Kresse
Or utilization at all if there happens to be no coal to haul at the moment.

Yes, you can rotary dump a wooden gon; I just saw an image on Shorpy a while ago of a wooden gon in a rotary dumper, but the site seems to be down at the moment, so I can't search for a link.

But consider this... most eastern coal went to large industries... steel mills, power plants, coal wharfs for export, the kinds of places that had the volume to make a rotary dumper worthwhile.

Most western coal went to small businesses, because by and large, the big businesses didn't exist out west in the time frame we are talking about. Even the railroads don't count as big businesses... they bought a lot of coal, but wanted it delivered to a thousand little facilities in every Podunk town across the land.

There was a rotary dumper on the narrow gauge at Salida, CO, that dumped NG gons into standard gauge cars for wider distribution, so such a thing was possible, but required the concentration of business that was less likely to be found out west. Here's the best image a two minute search could find:

http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page99/salida450.jpg

Dennis


Mathers reefer info needed

Clark Propst
 

I have a friend that models in 1 1/2" gauge, he's building a Mathers reefer and has some questions I how you fellas can answer? So I can pass them along to him and take the credit of course : )
Any help is greatly appreciated !
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

"Mather Car company leased a fleet of 37 foot Meat cars to Rath Packing co.- I got lots of pictures of sides of cars- the model in question is a 800 series numbered car with what appears to be tar/canvas roof with some type lap seam boards---anyone have photo showing any parts of roof, roof walk-running boards -Ice hatch covers?"

"I have a HO Red Caboose car kit-about useless to determine car details on a model 12 times bigger...additional confusion---some cars seem to have a sheet metal roof -but most of those, also have been upgraded with dreadnought ends--I am building the early model-with four vertical "Z" bar ends.
Your thoughts?"
Bob


Re: IC GS gons

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



So the goal is higher utilization of empties on the return trips?  If you look at the coal cars going up to Toledo, at best, a sixth of came back down with iron ore and every so often some few more with limestone.



Can you put these cars through a lift and tilt or rotary dumper?



Al Kresse
Or utilization at all if there happens to be no coal to haul at the moment.

Yes, you can rotary dump a wooden gon; I just saw an image on Shorpy a while ago of a wooden gon in a rotary dumper, but the site seems to be down at the moment, so I can't search for a link.

But consider this... most eastern coal went to large industries... steel mills, power plants, coal wharfs for export, the kinds of places that had the volume to make a rotary dumper worthwhile.

Most western coal went to small businesses, because by and large, the big businesses didn't exist out west in the time frame we are talking about. Even the railroads don't count as big businesses... they bought a lot of coal, but wanted it delivered to a thousand little facilities in every Podunk town across the land.

There was a rotary dumper on the narrow gauge at Salida, CO, that dumped NG gons into standard gauge cars for wider distribution, so such a thing was possible, but required the concentration of business that was less likely to be found out west. Here's the best image a two minute search could find:

http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page99/salida450.jpg

Dennis


Re: IC GS gons

water.kresse@...
 

So the goal is higher utilization of empties on the return trips?  If you look at the coal cars going up to Toledo, at best, a sixth of came back down with iron ore and every so often some few more with limestone.



Can you put these cars through a lift and tilt or rotary dumper?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:18:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: IC GS gons



--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



Thanks,



The southeastern Ohio roads had similar composite gons built around 1905.  What drove the need for side dumping vs. between the tracks dumping? . . . running up a trestle and dumping into bunkers on one side only?



Al Kresse
The 1905 era gons with drop doors didn't have doors over the trucks, so weren't "self clearing" and still required men to shovel about half the load out through the doors.

The quest for a self clearing cars took two paths... install inclined floors over the trucks (slope sheets) thereby creating what became the modern cross hopper, but which is unsuitable for other loads, such as pulpwood or structural steel, or arrange the doors on a flat floor car to open outward, where the end doors will clear the trucks (they don't open quite as far, but sumtin' is betteran nuttin', as they say). Cross hoppers became the car of choice in the eastern coalfields, because the vast majority of loads were coal. GS gons became popular west of the Mississippi because the vast majority of loads weren't.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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