Jim

There are customers who want to unload out the top of the car for
(perceived) safety reasons. If they have a rack to use during unloading,
they don't have to be under the car at all, except for steam
connections, if used.If a cap on the bottom is cross threaded and won't
come off, ("I already put and 8' cheater pipe on my 36" pipe wrench and
pulled on it with a fork lift:) the top unloading option is pretty
handy. Bottom outlet valves are notorious for being trouble. If the line
that is being unloaded into is low enough and all the connections are
good and tight the car will siphon out the top after the flow is
started.

If the vapor pressure on the car is high enough sometimes no addition
pressure is required.

Usually the eduction line is specified as being 1" off the bottom of the
car.

The dome can stay closed if the car is equipped with a vacuum relief
valve, which is basically a big check valve, but I am not sure when they
came into general use.

Tom


Subject: [STMFC] Re: Oil extraction




I can only admire the ingenuity in engineering methods of heating and
otherwise preparing the contents of a tank car for pressurized pumping
of the material up and out of the dome. But why not let if flow by
gravity and added pressure and/or heating if needed out of the bottom
valve?. Why fight gravity at all, ingenious or not? Thank you in advance
for informing me. Jim here.

The advantage of using the bottom outlet is to empty the tank. If you use the eduction pipe for off loading then there will be at least a couple of inches of product left in the tank as most eduction pipes are 2-21/2 inches off the bottom. The eduction pipe cannot go to the bottom of the tank as the diameter of the tank shell changes when the car is loaded and the pipe will make contact with the shell which in turn requires repair to the tank and or to the eduction pipe.

Jeff Coleman

Seems to me that if they used the bottom outlet, they would have to open the dome anyway to let air in as the tank emptied. And unless the tank was up on a trestle or was draining into an underground tank, they'd still have to pump it. So why mess with uncapping the bottom outlet, hooking up a hose, and opening the valve, when it could all be done through the dome?
Peace, Rick Aylsworth

I can only admire the ingenuity in engineering methods of heating and otherwise preparing the contents of a tank car for pressurized pumping of the material up and out of the dome. But why not let if flow by gravity and added pressure and/or heating if needed out of the bottom valve?. Why fight gravity at all, ingenious or not? Thank you in advance for informing me. Jim here.

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Probably (hopefully?) will be covered in the forthcoming book on Merchants Dispatch, which owned ERDX.

It sure is. Be patient, Armand. Won't be much longer.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Probably (hopefully?) will be covered in the forthcoming book on
Merchants Dispatch, which owned ERDX.

Tim O'Connor

Group,I am seeking information on ERDX reefers.Armand Premo

____________________________________________________________
Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
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Hello Ed and Group,

Two photos of NKP stock cars can be found in Mainline Modeler, July 1990, page 24 and 28.

Happy Modeling,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Feb 7, 2011, at 1:32 PM, EdwardM wrote:

Can someone lead me to a good photo of a single deck NKP stock car?

Ed Mines

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think there is a couple of photos of NKP single deck stock cars on the Fallen Flags site.
-

Can someone lead me to a good photo of a single deck NKP stock car?

Ed Mines

There is also the lettering diagram on the Elwood site. I can't see the
original date, but the first revision, "A", was in 1951 with the last
one "C" in 09-10-57.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-frt/12-D-97.GIF

The drawing shows the Optic lettering, but because of the quality of the
scan much of the information cannot be read. With the wide handhold on
the left, the original looks like it was for the WWII plywood/wood
sheathed reefer.

Bob Witt

Staffan Ehnbom wrote:

I have an FGE lettering arrangement drawing for swinging door cars

dated 6-8-59 showing sans serif lettering.

Staffan Ehnbom

----- Original Message -----
From: lnbill
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 1:19 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: FGE lettering change



Tim's information surprises me. My research had shown this change

occurred in about 1960.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor timboconnor@ wrote:
>
>
> I think the first use of the plain (not Optic) lettering was
> on RBNX insulated box cars in 1959 -- for example, RBNX 81123,
> stencilled "AX 12-59". The earliest use I've seen on FGEX reefers
> is in 1961. I've seen photos of freshly painted/repainted reefers
> in 1958 with Optic lettering.
>
> So I totally agree with Richard, if you model prior to 1960 all
> of your FGE reefers can have the Optic lettering as far as I know.
>
> Tim O'Connor
>
>
>
>
> >I thought that someone who is more of an expert on FGE and its
> >affiliates than I am would respond to this, but apparently no one

did

> >(or posted it off-list). So I took a quick look through my photo
> >collection, and the earliest date I could find for the later
> >lettering style was ca. 1960. I think you can confidently assume
> >that in 1959-60, many, if not all, FGEX cars still had the

earlier

> >Optic block lettering.
> >
> >Richard Hendrickson
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes Doug, That's one of the two photos I have. I've talked to Vern, but he doesn't know any more than I do about the trailer used to siphon the oil from the car.

I'd like to know who made those trailers. Then maybe I could get more info?

Thanks, Clark Propst

Thanks to all who replied. I'm encouraged by the date - I had been afraid it was several years earlier.

Ron Merrick


--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

<snip> So I took a quick look through my photo

collection, and the earliest date I could find for the later
lettering style was ca. 1960. I think you can confidently assume
that in 1959-60, many, if not all, FGEX cars still had the earlier
Optic block lettering.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave:

Yes, the first point is dead center of the head, normally the inside. The second point, the tangent line, is the opposite end of the knuckle radius so is actually your point (c).

Tank lengths (not necessarily true of tank cars of this ers) are often stated as "t-t" or tangent to tangent lengths, with some kind of head that the user is familiar with. I noticed another response concerning an ellipsoidal tank head, and the specific case described where the "minor axis being one-half the major axis" is today called a 2:1 semi-elliptical tank head, because there is often still a knuckle radius with smaller curvature.

Try www.bakertankhead.com/products/tank-heads.htm for a more technical description of heads.

This particular site shows the straight flange part of the head as "s.f.". I think on riveted tank cars, the tangent point can be taken as essentially the end of the cylindrical portion of the shell.

Hope this helps.

Ron Merrick


--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

Rod, sounds like you know this stuff already but it's new to me. Let me
paraphrase, using your terms, what I'm understanding here... tell me if I
got it right:

WRT the first point on the 6" distance. Most likely this is a point on the
inside of the head where it has been pressed furthest (most probably the
centerline of the tank cylinder) . The second point, following that
centerline, lies on a point on the circular plane parallel to the end of
cylinder of the tank / perpendicular to its sides...

a) where the dish ends and the knuckle radius begins, or, moving a bit
closer to the tank itself...
b) where the knuckle radius ends and the straight flange begins, or moving
right to...
c) where the original end of the tank cylinder is found.

On reading your comments I thought the point in question could be (b) but
is most likely (a) where the dish begins to turn into the knuckle radius,
if, for no other reason, your use of the word knuckle was describing a
different thing than what you described when you used the word dish. (c)
doesn't make as much sense to use in context of the actual operation to
press the dish itself so it is rejected.

Is my conclusion -- most likely (a) -- your best understanding as well?

Dave Nelson

<snip>> -----Original Message-----

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
mopacfirst
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 2:35 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Dished Tank Head

While I can't speak for a hundred years ago, here's how it works now and
would have already been by the fifties, probably earlier.

The 'other' point, actually a line, you are looking for is the tangent.
That's where the different curves of a head meet the cylinder (shell).
There are plenty of head manufacturers around now, so it's easily Googled.
The term 'dished' really means that the head, proper, has a curve to it, as
opposed to a flat head with a transition curve to the tangent like some of
those marine boilers that were written about in this group a year or two
ago.

There are many common contours, and many common radii to the dish part, with
common ones being around the same as the diameter or the shell up to 2x the
diameter of the shell. As this number gets larger, the head gets flatter.
Then one has to know the knuckle radius. The knuckle is the transition
curve from the dish radius to the straight flange (flat cylindrical surface
beyond the tangent point), which is where the attachment to the shell takes
place. Now, with butt welding, the straight flange only needs to be about
2" or so long but with riveting it was undoubtedly longer.

Your 6" dimension actually describes the curve pretty well -- you just have
to estimate the knuckle radius and do a little curve fitting. Obviously,
the larger the tank shell diameter the flatter the head will be if the
height is constant. Note that, if the head is 1/2" to 1" in thickness, it
makes relatively little difference whether this is measured to outside or
inside but tank guys now usually care only about the ID.

Ron Merrick

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

a) where the dish ends and the knuckle radius begins,

Ron hasn't replied, but what I take away from his message is that, while the head is one piece of steel, it has three distinct features:

The flange. The bend that turns the flange ninety degrees from the axis of the plate, called the knuckle. The dish that pushes the center of the plate out and gives it more resistance to bending under load. Each of the three would have been dimensioned separately, although maybe not on a general arrangement drawing such as what you are looking at, so the dish dimension refers only to the area past the knuckle bends.

Dennis

Clark are you referring to the photos of UTLX 56816 being unloaded on the
M&StL at Marietta MN in June 1954? The photo shows two tank cars next to a
grain elevator, and the Pacific Grain Co coal sheds in the distance, with
hoses connected to a trailer, then to a tank truck next to the trailer. If
so, the photos were taken by Vern Wigfield, and show the transfer of oil
used to control dust on gravel roads. Not sure about 1954, but in later
years road oil was often used motor oil. Not a consistency that would need
steam to make it flow.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

I have an FGE lettering arrangement drawing for swinging door cars dated 6-8-59 showing sans serif lettering.

Staffan Ehnbom

Tim's information surprises me. My research had shown this change occurred in about 1960.

Bill Welch

Dale,  I know the CofG vent cars are in short supply.

Keep in mind they had the roof changed around 1930 or so.  Todd Horton




________________________________
From: Dave Evans <devans1@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:56:27 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Ventilated Box Cars

 
--- In STMFC@..., LOUIS WHITELEY <octoraro1@...> wrote:

Sunshine Models offers several versions of the ACL O-17 ventilated box car
(Kits

35.1 - 35.6); a C&WC O-13 (#35.7) and a C&WC O-18 (#35.8).

Lou Whiteley
Lawrenceville, NJ

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for the responses. I have found the CofG historical order page - it
shows the ventilators as still available.

I also found the Sunshine ACL vent flyers - I was looking at the wrong pages on
Jim Hayes web site. The ACL cars were on Sunshine's 2009 price list, but when I
saw Martin on Saturday he said he hoped to produce an updated product
availability list this spring. I hope the ACL cars are still on it.

Between the CofG, ACL, and SAL cars available, that should give me a good start,
and 2 of the 3 are 36 footers, which helps with the 36/40 WWII fleet balance.

Thank-you all,
Dave Evans







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In STMFC@..., LOUIS WHITELEY <octoraro1@...> wrote:

Sunshine Models offers several versions of the ACL O-17 ventilated box car (Kits
35.1 - 35.6); a C&WC O-13 (#35.7) and a C&WC O-18 (#35.8).

Lou Whiteley
Lawrenceville, NJ

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for the responses. I have found the CofG historical order page - it shows the ventilators as still available.

I also found the Sunshine ACL vent flyers - I was looking at the wrong pages on Jim Hayes web site. The ACL cars were on Sunshine's 2009 price list, but when I saw Martin on Saturday he said he hoped to produce an updated product availability list this spring. I hope the ACL cars are still on it.

Between the CofG, ACL, and SAL cars available, that should give me a good start, and 2 of the 3 are 36 footers, which helps with the 36/40 WWII fleet balance.

Thank-you all,
Dave Evans