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Re: B&O Wagontop

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

After reviewing all the pertinent discussion about the new Fox Valley B&O wagontop box car it appears that at least the first two paint schemes are legit and were in use before 1950. Sincere thanks to all who contributed to this conversation.

If I understand what has been posted the first scheme (below) is possible but would likely have been rare.
B&O Oricinal Scheme (Flat Door) with no capitol dome herald on left side above reporting marks
FVM 30301
FVM 30302
FVM 30303

This version would have been widespread once the B&O began using it.
B&O 13 Great States (Flat Door)
FVM 30304
FVM 30305
FVM 30306

Here's the link to Fox Valley's B&O wagontop box car on facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150097638299797&set=a.215654069796.1323\;07.92694309796&ref=nf

Gene Green
Re: unloading a tank car through the bottom valve

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:
How would this be done, particularly after a load like tar or ashphalt?
Steam, hot water, solvents. In some cases workmen did have to go into the tank to make sure residues were gone

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history
Re: unloading a tank car through the bottom valve

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Not at all. Tank cars could be and were cleaned for new
cargoes. Of course it cost time and money, but it was certainly
possible.
How would this be done, particularly after a load like tar or ashphalt?

How would you scrub the sides of the tank? Or don't you think this is necessary?

What about getting the last little bit of liquid (either the previous load or the cleaning solution) out?

In one of the CBCs they show a revolving head which is inserted in the dome and squirts solvent throughout the car. Is there a guarantee that all of the previous load is gone? After a while the solvent gets expensive; disposal of a tank car of liquid (even water) is a problem too.

A few years back someone wrote that they saw pictures of tank cars being cleaned out with steam. I think this would be done on cars used to transport crude oil and then common refined products like gasoline.

Ed Mines
Re: NKP team era single deck stock car

foxtrackin50
 

I added a couple of photos of drawings for NKP single deck stocks cars. In my album for NKP single deck stock cars in the photo section.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "EdwardM" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

Can someone lead me to a good photo of a single deck NKP stock car?

Ed Mines
Re: Oil extraction

Jeff Coleman
 

I work in a full service tank car repair shop and I can tell you that most customers use the bottom outlet far more than not for off loading all products.
I'm not sure if this was the case in the steam era or not but it is now.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Birkett" <tnbirke@> wrote:


Usually the eduction line is specified as being 1" off the bottom of the
car.

The dome can stay closed if the car is equipped with a vacuum relief
valve, which is basically a big check valve, but I am not sure when they
came into general use.

Tom
Tom, your information is very factual, and undoubtedly entirely correct for the current era, but it seems that most, if not all, oil unloading cranes used at the small bulk plants during the steam era had their own suction line arranged to drop into the tank through the manway, whereupon the material was pumped out.

Dennis
Re: unloading a tank car through the bottom valve

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

I have a photo from the 1920's showing an Imperial Oil tank car being unloaded thorugh the bottom valve.

But using these valves can sometime be attended with problems. I was told (at a "TransCaer Safety Train" seminar on their demonstration tank car CCPX 911) of objects like pens falling into a tank after the bottom outlet cap (chained to the bottom outlet) was replaced on the outlet. Now, the bottom valve does not close fully, as that pen is stuck in it...

On arrival at the consignee, their employee places a five-gallon bucket under the outlet to catch the half-gallon or so of product that will be trapped in the cap. He unscrews the cap, to find the valve partly open, allowing the contents of the car to drain into the bucket. Uh-oh! Now imagine trying to hook up the discharge hose to the outlet with product issuing from it. And what's in the car that may block and/or damage that hose?

Flammable product spilt on the ground, a mess to clean up, and no way to stop the flow other than to replace the cap with product still flowing out of the car. Lost product = money. The mess will be expensive to clean up, too.

Which to me expalins why many consignees preferred to unload tank cars by suction/eduction pipes rather than through that bottom outlet valve.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "traininsp" <Bbear746@...> wrote:

The bottom outlet valves used on steam era tank cars were 4 & 6 inch plug valves, the same design that's still in used today. On the tanks with expansion domes the valve handle (wheel) was located in the dome.
I'm sure they were used often.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@> wrote:

Ed Mines wrote:
The bottom valves on steam era tank cars are way too small to allow
the car to be emptied in a timely manner.
Where do you get this idea? It was done very widely and all the
time. And photos I've seen of top unloading pipes are no larger than
the outlet pipes at the bottom.

I have a feeling they were difficult to open too; otherwise thieves,
vandals, hobos etc. would be opening them.
Nope, the accessible part is just a pipe cap on the outlet
pipe, but that's not enough to unload. You also have to open the
valve, which is INSIDE the tank and operated from the dome. See any
steam-era Cyc or a book like Ed Kaminski's _AC&F Tank Cars_ for
drawings.

I think tank cars used to transport ashphalt, roofing tar etc. were
the tank car equivalent of hide loading box cars.
Not at all. Tank cars could be and were cleaned for new
cargoes. Of course it cost time and money, but it was certainly
possible. The major exceptions were cars with particular linings, such
as rubber linings for acid, which you would not want to use for
anything which could interact with the lining.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@
Publishers of books on railroad history
Re: unloading a tank car through the bottom valve

Tim O'Connor
 

Coriolis Effect: The tendency of email threads to travel in endless circles

However did we get along until Tony invoked this Great Mystery some years ago?
Denny
Re: unloading a tank car through the bottom valve

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Brown wrote:
That's why right-side wheels turn clockwise and left-side counterclockwise, yes?
Originally it was part of an explanation of the SP's "Tunnel Motors." I explained that due to the Coriolis force, there was a tendency for tunnels in the northern hemisphere to rotate along their long axes clockwise (naturally opposite in the southern hemisphere), tending to close them up, and that SP had applied small motors to the walls of its tunnels to exert an opposite torque and keep the tunnels open. Thus the name "Tunnel Motor." In the southern hemisphere, the voltage to the motor is simply reversed.
Hopefully the Coriolis force, which is truly quite small, was overwhelmed in this case by the force of tongue against cheek.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history
Re: unloading a tank car through the bottom valve

al_brown03
 

That's why right-side wheels turn clockwise and left-side counterclockwise, yes?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, dennyanspach <danspach@...> wrote:

Tony writes-

Maybe the Coriolis force is bigger in California . . . or something <g>.
Ah, yes: the Coriolis Effect- the truly great universal answer to everything in modeling that we do not know, are are likely to ever know...

However did we get along until Tony invoked this Great Mystery some years ago?

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Oil extraction

Clark Propst
 

Thanks for posting the photos Doug.
Back to my original question. I want to know about the trailer with the boiler and engine driven pump!

Thanks <G>

Clark propst
Re: unloading a tank car through the bottom valve

dennyanspach <danspach@...>
 

Tony writes-

Maybe the Coriolis force is bigger in California . . . or something <g>.
Ah, yes: the Coriolis Effect- the truly great universal answer to everything in modeling that we do not know, are are likely to ever know...

However did we get along until Tony invoked this Great Mystery some years ago?

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento
1950s Flat Switching Film

Bob C <thecitrusbelt@...>
 

Here is a link to a 1950s Santa Fe employee training film titled "Payday".

This twenty minute short starts a little slow but then goes on to show a lot of flat switching action featuring nice slow pans of period rolling stock. Most of the cars are Santa Fe.

It shows what happens when switch crews are careless even to the point of staging some minor yard accidents. Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNylLs4eoPY&feature=channel

Enjoy.

Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA
Re: Oil extraction

gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

Fascinating photos--thanks Doug. Some tanks had a "steam jacketed outlet" (ACF's name, illustration in 1925 CBC) that heated the valve and outlet pipe area. It looks to me like the small trailer had a pump on the far end that sucked the oil out of the dome, through the pump, and into the truck. The heavy (insulated?) hose to the outlet area could be the heating line, with the hose through the dome poked down into the outlet area to suck up the warmed oil. So the other apparatus on the trailer would be water and fuel tanks, and a small boiler. Informed speculation, tear it up Tony ;)
Peace, Rick Aylsworth

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Harding" <doug.harding@...> wrote:

Group I have posted the two photos that started this thread, per Clark's
question. They can be found (when approved) in the photo album MSTL. The
photos were taken by Vern Wigfield in June of 1954 in Marrietta MN, on the
M&StL. Vern has given me permission to share his photos.



The photos show URTX tank car 56816 being unloaded, via a pump trailer into
a tank truck. There is a hose into the dome as well as from the bottom
outlet.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org
Re: Oil extraction

Douglas Harding
 

Group I have posted the two photos that started this thread, per Clark's
question. They can be found (when approved) in the photo album MSTL. The
photos were taken by Vern Wigfield in June of 1954 in Marrietta MN, on the
M&StL. Vern has given me permission to share his photos.



The photos show URTX tank car 56816 being unloaded, via a pump trailer into
a tank truck. There is a hose into the dome as well as from the bottom
outlet.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org
Re: Oil extraction

gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

Hi Tony, it seems you misinterpreted by response to Jim Sabol's query. I'm aware that the valve is inside the tank, with the handwheel in the dome. The tank can only drain by gravity if the commodity is going into another tank lower than the bottom of the tank car. You are right, it's not a lot of work to hook up to the bottom--my point was that if the dome still needed to be opened, and the commodity still needed to be pumped, hooking up to the bottom would be additional steps that are unnecessary. From Clark's description of the photo, pumping would have been necessary, whether from the bottom or the top. They just opened the dome and dropped in the suction hose, and didn't mess with the bottom outlet. I stand by post.
Peace, Rick

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Rick Aylsworth wrote:
Seems to me that if they used the bottom outlet, they would have to
open the dome anyway to let air in as the tank emptied. And unless
the tank was up on a trestle or was draining into an underground
tank, they'd still have to pump it. So why mess with uncapping the
bottom outlet, hooking up a hose, and opening the valve, when it
could all be done through the dome?
Rick, the tank doesn't just drain when you open the bottom outlet
pipe. There is a valve inside the tank which has to be opened. The
handwheel to operate that valve is up in the dome, so you have to open
the dome to open the valve anyway.
I don't see why it's a lot of work to hook up a hose to the
bottom outlet. We're talking minutes, and no pump is required.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Re: OK, What Kind of Truck is This?

Allen Cain <allencain@...>
 

Pure speculation from an old mechanical engineer but the cylinders look a
lot like what you see on the semi-trailers on the highways. This, combined
with the absence of springs leads me to speculate that these are pneumatic
shock absorbers. If you look closely, there appears to be a secondary frame
behind the side frame which supports the bolster(?). So the load goes down
through the bolster thru the interior frame passing through the shock
absorbers and then into the visible side frames and to the wheels.





Again, just speculation.



Allen Cain
Re: OK, What Kind of Truck is This?

spsalso
 

The journal box covers look to me to read:


"Gould Depew NY"



Ed

Edward Sutorik
Re: unloading a tank car through the bottom valve

Jeff Coleman
 

The bottom outlet valves used on steam era tank cars were 4 & 6 inch plug valves, the same design that's still in used today. On the tanks with expansion domes the valve handle (wheel) was located in the dome.
I'm sure they were used often.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Ed Mines wrote:
The bottom valves on steam era tank cars are way too small to allow
the car to be emptied in a timely manner.
Where do you get this idea? It was done very widely and all the
time. And photos I've seen of top unloading pipes are no larger than
the outlet pipes at the bottom.

I have a feeling they were difficult to open too; otherwise thieves,
vandals, hobos etc. would be opening them.
Nope, the accessible part is just a pipe cap on the outlet
pipe, but that's not enough to unload. You also have to open the
valve, which is INSIDE the tank and operated from the dome. See any
steam-era Cyc or a book like Ed Kaminski's _AC&F Tank Cars_ for
drawings.

I think tank cars used to transport ashphalt, roofing tar etc. were
the tank car equivalent of hide loading box cars.
Not at all. Tank cars could be and were cleaned for new
cargoes. Of course it cost time and money, but it was certainly
possible. The major exceptions were cars with particular linings, such
as rubber linings for acid, which you would not want to use for
anything which could interact with the lining.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
Re: OK, What Kind of Truck is This?

Tim O'Connor
 

I didn't say it was a GOOD design. :-)

Tim

Yeah, Tim, but I still don't see anything that looks like a "steering arm", or a "steering arm center connection". What I do see are stops on the bolster that would lead me to believe it is some sort of swing motion truck, after all, the traditional swing motion trucks rely on swing links, under tension, to do their job. We can't see what the casting under the bolster actually does; with enough side play, the cable would act as swing links, although I don't see how they would lift the weight of the car, which is required to bring the truck back to equilibrium.

Then again, since these were apparently never commercialized, maybe the inventor missed that part, too.

Dennis
Re: OK, What Kind of Truck is This?

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

What's wrong with informed speculation so long as it is labeled as such?

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson

As to the function of those cylindrical housings above the journal boxes, I can only speculate - so I won't.
95401 - 95420 of 192636