Date   

Re: conductor's reefer data

Max Robin
 

Does anyone haveither a kit on an unpainted assembled model of the Red Caboose "original" version of an X-29 boxcar they would be willing to sell ortrade for? I'm in the market for at least 3 such cars.

Thanks,

Nax
=======================================================================email: m_robin@...

smail: Max S. Robin, PE
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
P. O. Box 289
23 Richwood Place
Denville, NJ 07834

voice: 973-945-5007(9:00am-11:00pm M-F,11:00am-11:00pm WE, Eastern)
=======================================================================


Re: conductor's reefer data

Tim O'Connor
 

Great information, Cliff! Here's some ORER data.

BAR reefers: insulated box cars:
------------------------------------------
1940 - 0 0
1950 - 0 5 (one listed as RBH)
1955 - 1123 453 (XI/XIH)
1959 - 1326 453 (XI/XIH)

The BAR reefers in Tony's data must be ex-MDT wood sheathed
reefers in series 6000-6700, 342 cars acquired by BAR 1950-1951,
or I guess they could be the new steel reefers acquired in 1952. I
have conflicting notes on the 7000-7856 series -- one note says
they were built by PC&F, and another says they were built by the
Mt Vernon division of Pressed Steel Car.

All of the new steel reefers acquired in the 1950's had plug doors.
It wasn't until later that BAR acquired second hand ice reefers with
swing doors.

Tim O'Connor

To add to what Tony wrote about PFE contracting for reefers to meet the demand for car, I have some information from the brief file by PFE in opposition to the application of the Santa Fe to control the WP on May 1 1962. The following is part of the testimony by BAR president W G Robertson.

. ...after World War II, the BAR (the text used B&A, but I will use there more familiar BAR) did not own any refrigerator cars, and had encountered car supply problems in handling the potato traffic. Outside consultants reported that it would not be economically feasible for BAR to acquire refrigerator cars unless some use could be found for them during the period May to October when they were not needed to move the Maine potatoes.

...BAR was able to finance purchase of 1200 refrigerator cars beginning in 1952, relying upon PFE's assurance that PFE would use the cars during the May-October period. In 1954 BAR and PFE entered into a contract which provides for the use by each party of refrigerator cars owned by the other.

Mr. Robertson made it abundantly clear that the mileage earned from the BAR refrigerator cars are of vital importance to the BAR. One-third of the BAR net income during the past 5 years (1956-1961) came from these mileage earnings....

This was from the brief file in the case and I have not attempted to check all the facts, such as, did BAR have any reefers at the end of WWII or did they just lease cars. This does show as Tony stated, PFE contracted with other reefer owners to supply cars. PFE in this brief stated that they maintain a fleet of cars that could handled only about 90% of the peak traffic demand.

Cliff Prather


Re: Waybills

foxtrackin50
 

George, yes I know I am looking for waybills with NKP routing also. Like Mopac to ACY routed thru the NKP. Real waybills of the Mopac filled in or blank would work. Just looking for a source of this kind of waybill. Thanks Jan

--- In STMFC@..., "MOPACMAN" <GEORGESIMMONS@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "foxtrackin50" <foxtrackin50@> wrote:

Thanks Tony and Tim, I have just joined the ry-ops group and will be looking up their spreadsheets on railroad freight shippers. I know I will have to make up many of my own waybills for my ops. I do already have some waybills a sample would be(FOSTER FORBES GLASS CO #1803 MARION IND (2153) to PEPSI COLA CO, LOUISVILLE KY route NKP LINDEN MON LN DELY 2325 BXS MTY GLASS BTLS 1 GAL CAPY weight 30225 to which I would add my cars initals and number, car kind and date. This would be the type of info I will be looking for. I will then print this info on my copies of real NKP blank waybills. Thanks Jan
Just remember that waybills for shippments that orginate on roads other than the NKP will not be on NKP waybills but the waybill of the orignating road.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA


Re: Waybills

foxtrackin50
 

Paper-work modeling, we have invented a new hobby. lol Jan

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


And so it begins... the downward spiral into paperwork modeling :-)

YMMV, indeed.

Tim "Why do you think they call it paper-WORK?" O'Connor

P.S. George, I just love the name of your home town!

-----------------------------------

Just remember that waybills for shippments that orginate on roads other than
the NKP will not be on NKP waybills but the waybill of the orignating road.
George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA


Re: conductor's reefer data

cliffprather
 

To add to what Tony wrote about PFE contracting for reefers to meet the demand for car, I have some information from the brief file by PFE in opposition to the application of the Santa Fe to control the WP on May 1 1962. The following is part of the testimony by BAR president W G Robertson.

. ...after World War II, the BAR (the text used B&A, but I will use there more familiar BAR) did not own any refrigerator cars, and had encountered car supply problems in handling the potato traffic. Outside consultants reported that it would not be economically feasible for BAR to acquire refrigerator cars unless some use could be found for them during the period May to October when they were not needed to move the Maine potatoes.

...BAR was able to finance purchase of 1200 refrigerator cars beginning in 1952, relying upon PFE's assurance that PFE would use the cars during the May-October period. In 1954 BAR and PFE entered into a contract which provides for the use by each party of refrigerator cars owned by the other.

Mr. Robertson made it abundantly clear that the mileage earned from the BAR refrigerator cars are of vital importance to the BAR. One-third of the BAR net income during the past 5 years (1956-1961) came from these mileage earnings....

This was from the brief file in the case and I have not attempted to check all the facts, such as, did BAR have any reefers at the end of WWII or did they just lease cars. This does show as Tony stated, PFE contracted with other reefer owners to supply cars. PFE in this brief stated that they maintain a fleet of cars that could handled only about 90% of the peak traffic demand.

Cliff Prather

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Tony, it would be fascinating to know if you could correlate the
number of ART cars (which really surprises me!) with known traffic
patterns for ART, like the annual peach crop from western Colorado
or produce (watermelons and canteloupes) from south Texas. What I'm
driving at is, wondering why so many ART reefers would show up in
California?
Tim, it sounds like you're assuming they were all confiscated as
empties. I doubt many of them were in that category, same as the MDT
and BAR and FGEX cars. When I interviewed Pete Holst, PFE's Assistant
General Manager for Car Service (or if you will, Car Distribution) for
many years, he explained that PFE had NEVER owned enough cars to quite
cover peak harvest seasons, but instead had relied on agreements with
other car lines to supply empties at critical times. I feel sure that
the numerous reefers from far away which are in my statistics are
there by agreement, not by confiscation, and likely arrived on the SP
as empties so they could be loaded. After all, ART (or whoever)
received mileage payments both directions, and would have been happy
to keep the cars moving, unless of course they needed them for a
particular harvest season of their own.


Cars

tchenoweth@...
 

I have listed 4 Westerfield built cars on Ebay under Westerfield. Tom
Chenoweth


Re: Waybills

Tim O'Connor
 

And so it begins... the downward spiral into paperwork modeling :-)

YMMV, indeed.

Tim "Why do you think they call it paper-WORK?" O'Connor

P.S. George, I just love the name of your home town!

-----------------------------------

Just remember that waybills for shippments that orginate on roads other than
the NKP will not be on NKP waybills but the waybill of the orignating road.
George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA


Re: Waybills

George Simmons
 

--- In STMFC@..., "foxtrackin50" <foxtrackin50@...> wrote:

Thanks Tony and Tim, I have just joined the ry-ops group and will be looking up their spreadsheets on railroad freight shippers. I know I will have to make up many of my own waybills for my ops. I do already have some waybills a sample would be(FOSTER FORBES GLASS CO #1803 MARION IND (2153) to PEPSI COLA CO, LOUISVILLE KY route NKP LINDEN MON LN DELY 2325 BXS MTY GLASS BTLS 1 GAL CAPY weight 30225 to which I would add my cars initals and number, car kind and date. This would be the type of info I will be looking for. I will then print this info on my copies of real NKP blank waybills. Thanks Jan
Just remember that waybills for shippments that orginate on roads other than the NKP will not be on NKP waybills but the waybill of the orignating road.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA


Modeling truss rods - lessons learned

Ned Carey <nedspam@...>
 

Thank you to all that suggested ideas for modeling truss rods. I tried several techniques and report my results below.

First I tried ACC to hold two separate pieces of line to the turnbuckle, intending to leave a gap in the turnbuckle. I was surprised at the holding power. However when I glued the 2nd side in the ACC filled the turnbuckle gap. With practice this should work but I moved on to other methods.

Next I tried to heat the end of the monofilament to create a mushroom to hold it to the turnbuckle. It was difficult to get the second piece of monofilament to feed through the side of the turnbuckle. The one I did this way popped loose. I redid it and added ACC and it appears fine now, with a nice open turnbuckle.

In both cases above I found it difficult to get the turnbuckle centered between the queen posts. I needed an extra pair of hands to hold the nylon monofilament tight while I centered and glued the turnbuckle. I found my extra pair of hands by using clamping tweezers on the mono. I let the weight of the tweezers pull the mono tight while I used my hands to center and glue in place.

Frustration led me to try using one piece of monofilament weaved back and forth through the floor and over the queen posts. I fed the mono. though the turnbuckles which meant I wouldn't have that "see Through" look. This allowed me to pull the mono tight and the turnbuckles could be aligned and glued after the stringing is done. If I didn't care about the see through look this is the technique I would go with.

Truss rods work on a model just like they do in real life. When I was done I noticed that the floor was curved upwards in the middle. To make sure the monofilament was taught and straight I put enough tension on them to curve the floor. To have the truss rods straight with less tension I now pre-stress ( put a kink in) the monofilament at the bends.

I grit blasted the model and put it in the ultrasonic cleaner. The ultrasonic loosened the Truss Rods! I thought I would have to start over. A quick hit with a hair drier and I could watch the rods tighten up. All was good again.


Conclusion - my future technique:
1.. Mushroom end of monofilament with a soldering iron, feed through the turnbuckle from the middle and ACC
2.. Do one truss rod at a time
3.. Use clamping tweezers to pull the mono tight.
4.. Pre-stress the mono at the bends
5.. Glue with free hand
I hope my experiences will help someone else.

Ned Carey
Laurel, MD


Re: Waybills

foxtrackin50
 

Thanks Tony and Tim, I have just joined the ry-ops group and will be looking up their spreadsheets on railroad freight shippers. I know I will have to make up many of my own waybills for my ops. I do already have some waybills a sample would be(FOSTER FORBES GLASS CO #1803 MARION IND (2153) to PEPSI COLA CO, LOUISVILLE KY route NKP LINDEN MON LN DELY 2325 BXS MTY GLASS BTLS 1 GAL CAPY weight 30225 to which I would add my cars initals and number, car kind and date. This would be the type of info I will be looking for. I will then print this info on my copies of real NKP blank waybills. Thanks Jan

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Tim O'Connor wrote:
You may want to look at this group -- they have compiled
spreadsheets of real railroad freight shippers. Can you say
"information overload"?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ry-ops-industrialSIG/
Don't know if it's the same database, but the OpSIG (operations)
group also has a huge listing of shippers on line, at opsig.org

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: CG 7115 PS-1

Ed Hawkins
 

On Feb 21, 2011, at 7:03 PM, john66h wrote:

Hello All,

In researching Kadee's CG PS-1 #7115 (CG 7000-7299 blt 4/52) I ran
across some conflicting information...

First, the model (Kadee #5111) was produced with a silver roof and
running board to represent an un-painted galvanized finish.
see: http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/40ps1b.htm

The Central of Georgia Railway Historical Society web site says this
car should have an oxide red roof.
see: http://tinyurl.com/5uvk9ar

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia #4, p 28 says the roof should be black -
black car cement.

Can anyone clarify for me what color the roof (and running board)
should be for this car when it was new.
John,
In 1998 I spent some time researching various Pullman-Standard
correspondence files located at the Illinois Railway Museum. According
to the paint specifications that were in the file for lot number 8030,
CG 7000-7299, the sides were painted Glidden Metallic Brown. The ends,
roofs, & underframes received a coat of black car cement, and the
trucks received a light-bodied coat of black paint. This was
Pullman-Standard's "standard" method at the time to paint a PS-1 box
car. Railroads were allowed to deviate from the "standard" that
Pullman-Standard quoted in their PS-1 specification, but it cost more
money to do so. Some railroads deviated anyway.

The correspondence file indicated both white and aluminum stencil paste
was used for lettering the cars. Presumably the white was for the sides
and aluminum was used over black car cement. The aluminum pigment
applied to black car cement was for the purpose of longevity, as it was
thought that white stencil paste wouldn't last as long. This document
was the basis for the paint specs as they were stated in RP CYC Volume
4.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Waybills

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Your waybill analysis pays real dividends because it informs your modeling. But for the life of me I can't see the utility of knowing that company ABC in East Podunk bought fresh carrots and company XYZ in West Podunk only bought oranges -- unless of course, I am modeling the Podunk Terminal Rwy.
Ah, the key word you use is "utility," and as with so many things, utility in this subject is in the eye of the beholder. Or, if you like, I could say that the origin and destination info on waybills isn't there because it's USEFUL, it's there because it's INTERESTING. (And of course the prototype did it that way--after all, Tim, what's the "utility" of putting cut levers on box car models?) If we don't use a waybill which at least RESEMBLES the prototype, we approach the status of using "game cards" to run a layout. But again, that's my view and clearly not yours. This is certainly a hobby where "YMMV" has to be used frequently.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: conductor's reefer data

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Tony, it would be fascinating to know if you could correlate the number of ART cars (which really surprises me!) with known traffic
patterns for ART, like the annual peach crop from western Colorado or produce (watermelons and canteloupes) from south Texas. What I'm driving at is, wondering why so many ART reefers would show up in California?
Tim, it sounds like you're assuming they were all confiscated as empties. I doubt many of them were in that category, same as the MDT and BAR and FGEX cars. When I interviewed Pete Holst, PFE's Assistant General Manager for Car Service (or if you will, Car Distribution) for many years, he explained that PFE had NEVER owned enough cars to quite cover peak harvest seasons, but instead had relied on agreements with other car lines to supply empties at critical times. I feel sure that the numerous reefers from far away which are in my statistics are there by agreement, not by confiscation, and likely arrived on the SP as empties so they could be loaded. After all, ART (or whoever) received mileage payments both directions, and would have been happy to keep the cars moving, unless of course they needed them for a particular harvest season of their own.

In my modeling era 10 years later, the BAR had acquired a lot more reefers, and from photos we know that at some times of year (spring/ summer) a lot of BAR reefers were used for PFE loads out of northern California.
Very true, and Pete Holst said the agreement with BAR reached back before WW II. Whether they were largely used in another region, or if the statistics I happen to have for Salinas are in some way unrepresentative, I don't know. I do have two BAR reefer models in my own fleet, so I certainly intend to duplicate that usage.
I might add that I vividly recall Tim Gilbert once saying to a group of people at Cocoa Beach that he felt terribly frustrated by the microscopically narrow samples of freight cars provided by such sources as time books, and that he desperately wished he could find more data, much more data. Now I know how he felt.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Waybills

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

Might be the same raw data, for sure. I don't know, there's only
so much time in the world for most of us. Railroads created paperwork
because they were a business. Paperwork is not my hobby interest. I'm
a minimalist myself -- a waybill only needs to say where the car is
going as far as I'm concerned. :-) Your waybill analysis pays real
dividends because it informs your modeling. But for the life of me
I can't see the utility of knowing that company ABC in East Podunk
bought fresh carrots and company XYZ in West Podunk only bought
oranges -- unless of course, I am modeling the Podunk Terminal Rwy.

Tim O'Connor



--------------------------------------------------

You may want to look at this group -- they have compiled
spreadsheets of real railroad freight shippers. Can you say
"information overload"?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ry-ops-industrialSIG/
Don't know if it's the same database, but the OpSIG (operations)
group also has a huge listing of shippers on line, at opsig.org

Tony Thompson


Re: CG 7115 PS-1

Tim O'Connor
 

John

A 1960's Jim Sands photo of CG 7071 clearly shows the car had black
ends. The roof is very peeled, but there are remnants of what could
have been black car cement. The running board in the photo is so
bright and unpainted galvanized metal that it might actually be
a replacement. I know, real helpful huh? :-)

I think CG had 9 orders of 40' PS-1's from 1952 to 1957, so maybe
some of the paint specifications got mixed up? :-) I've seen no
builder photos from 7000-7299.

Tim O'Connor

In researching Kadee's CG PS-1 #7115 (CG 7000-7299 blt 4/52) I ran across some conflicting information...

First, the model (Kadee #5111) was produced with a silver roof and running board to represent an un-painted galvanized finish.
see: http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/40ps1b.htm

The Central of Georgia Railway Historical Society web site says this car should have an oxide red roof.
see: http://tinyurl.com/5uvk9ar

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia #4, p 28 says the roof should be black - black car cement.

Can anyone clarify for me what color the roof (and running board) should be for this car when it was new.

-John Hile


Re: Waybills

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
You may want to look at this group -- they have compiled spreadsheets of real railroad freight shippers. Can you say "information overload"?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ry-ops-industrialSIG/
Don't know if it's the same database, but the OpSIG (operations) group also has a huge listing of shippers on line, at opsig.org

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Waybills

Tim O'Connor
 

Jan

You may want to look at this group -- they have compiled spreadsheets
of real railroad freight shippers. Can you say "information overload"?

:-)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ry-ops-industrialSIG/

Tim O'

At 2/21/2011 07:32 PM Monday, you wrote:
Thanks Tim, that is what I am doing. I have copies of blank NKP waybills and also copies of some filled out waybills. I do have info on NKP industries from a 1944 shippers list. Just trying to get a better feel for who shipped what where. Jan


CG 7115 PS-1

John Hile
 

Hello All,

In researching Kadee's CG PS-1 #7115 (CG 7000-7299 blt 4/52) I ran across some conflicting information...

First, the model (Kadee #5111) was produced with a silver roof and running board to represent an un-painted galvanized finish.
see: http://www.kadee.com/ca/40ps1/40ps1b.htm

The Central of Georgia Railway Historical Society web site says this car should have an oxide red roof.
see: http://tinyurl.com/5uvk9ar

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia #4, p 28 says the roof should be black - black car cement.

Can anyone clarify for me what color the roof (and running board) should be for this car when it was new.

-John Hile


Re: Waybills

foxtrackin50
 

Thanks Tim, that is what I am doing. I have copies of blank NKP waybills and also copies of some filled out waybills. I do have info on NKP industries from a 1944 shippers list. Just trying to get a better feel for who shipped what where. Jan

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Jan

If you model the NKP, you will want to find a prototype waybill (or scan)
from the NKP for your time period. Then print blanks on your computer, or
whatever. I'm sure Tony Koester knows where to find them! I've only operated
on one model layout who uses miniature prototype waybills, Dan Holbrook's
Duluth-Superior terminal. It adds some prototype flavor to operations. I
can't help you, I only have SP and RI examples.

Tim O'Connor


I am wanting to model using real waybills or copies of real waybills of trains that are passing thru Frankfort,In on the Nickel Plate. I have some waybills but wondering where or how I would go about getting more. They would not need to be Industries on the NKP but just cars that would be routed on the NKP either on the Cloverleaf div. or the LE&W div. Is there a source for waybills. I am modeling mid fifties but any waybill from the forties thru the early sixies would work. Is there a web site or books about waybills. Thanks Jan


Re: conductor's reefer data

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony, it would be fascinating to know if you could correlate the
number of ART cars (which really surprises me!) with known traffic
patterns for ART, like the annual peach crop from western Colorado
or produce (watermelons and canteloupes) from south Texas. What
I'm driving at is, wondering why so many ART reefers would show
up in California? In my modeling era 10 years later, the BAR had
acquired a lot more reefers, and from photos we know that at some
times of year (spring/summer) a lot of BAR reefers were used for
PFE loads out of northern California.

Tim O'Connor

I've recently finished transcribing a conductor's time book for
part of the Coast Line from 1948 to 1952, and it contains extensive
reefer car information. The loads in question are almost all
vegetables from the Salinas and Watsonville areas, and the analysis of
reporting marks present in the data is interesting. For those who may
wish to look at the results, I've summarized the findings in a post on
my SP modeling blog, which may be found at:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2011/02/modeling-freight-traffic-coast-line.html

Bottom line is that, of course, PFE cars dominated (76%) but ART cars
at 11% and MDT cars at about 4% were also significant. Quite a few
other reporting marks showed up too but in pretty small numbers, out
of 1102 total refrigerator cars in the sample.

Tony Thompson

97861 - 97880 of 195395