Andy

I'm well aware of IM's error, but I didn't know that about the IMWX/RC
roof fitting the IM body -- thanks, that's a good thing to know. I hope
I have enough spare RC roofs on hand. :-)

The IMWX/RC roof is also finished nicely on the interior side, so if
you model a car with open doors, don't forget to galvanize the underside
of the roof! :-)

Tim O'

And I have been harping for years about the inexcusable rectangular panel roof
supplied by Intermountain for their 1937 AAR boxcar. Which is odd, seeing that
it WAS Intermountain who cut the tool for the very good IMWX (now Red Caboose)
1937 AAR boxcar roof. Fortunately for us, the Red Caboose roof fits perfectly on
the Intermountain car with just a couple of blacksmith strikes at the IntMt
false bulkhead tops.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA




________________________________
Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> said:



Well, gee, Richard, I'm not trying to hammer it down yer throat, but
it seems like ever' time ah brings it up, it's still news to some folks!


Richard Hendrickson said:

Brake fluid will attack the butyl rubber compounds in ABS (guess what the
B stands for) plastic. Kato uses this plastic; evidently so does Bachmann.
Just throw an empty sprue into the brake fluid, and see if it's destroyed
or becomes brittle. If not, then it's safe to use brake fluid.

Sorry, Richard, have I mentioned this before?

Tim O'Connor

Well, gee, Richard, I'm not trying to hammer it down yer throat, but
it seems like ever' time ah brings it up, it's still news to some folks!

Did I mention the bogus Proto 2000 box girder center sill again, yet?

:-)

Tim O'Connor

I make the rough cut using a Dremel circular saw blade, to remove most
of the roof. Then nip and sand off the rest. A knife?? No way I'd try that.

Tim O'Connor

Madden wrote:

Tim mentioned earlier in this thread that he'd used one of my roof
castings to re-roof an early P2K boxcar. (That was a loooooong time
ago.) Here's a scan of two such cars, the one on the right having
the original roof, and the one on the left a cast replacement:

http://www.pullmanproject.com/P2KRoofs.jpg

I'm confused regarding panel count. Does the resin roof have one too
many? I understand Life-Like upgraded the roof in later runs, but
I'm not much of a freight car guy these days and haven't kept up.

The two roofs in your photo have the same number of panels,
15, which AFAIK is the right number.

Tony Thompson



But, but . . . the raised panels are different widths. Z'at matter?

SGL





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Tom Madden wrote:

Tim mentioned earlier in this thread that he'd used one of my roof castings to re-roof an early P2K boxcar. (That was a loooooong time ago.) Here's a scan of two such cars, the one on the right having the original roof, and the one on the left a cast replacement: http://www.pullmanproject.com/P2KRoofs.jpg

I'm confused regarding panel count. Does the resin roof have one too many? I understand Life-Like upgraded the roof in later runs, but I'm not much of a freight car guy these days and haven't kept up.

The two roofs in your photo have the same number of panels, 15, which AFAIK is the right number.


Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Life-Like did NOT make the same mistake on its P2K models, which
have the correct number of seam caps and panels. What did happen,
as Tim seems relentless about reminding us, is that they
misinterpreted the prototype drawings so that the rectangular
panels between the seam caps were made a bit too wide and lacked a
prototypical taper. Whether one chooses to live with it or replace
the entire roof to get one with more shapely rectangular panels is
a judgment call, but the P2K roof is not incorrect in the same
sense as the Athearn roof, for which there was never a remotely
correct prototype.

Tim mentioned earlier in this thread that he'd used one of my roof castings to re-roof an early P2K boxcar. (That was a loooooong time ago.) Here's a scan of two such cars, the one on the right having the original roof, and the one on the left a cast replacement: http://www.pullmanproject.com/P2KRoofs.jpg

I'm confused regarding panel count. Does the resin roof have one too many? I understand Life-Like upgraded the roof in later runs, but I'm not much of a freight car guy these days and haven't kept up.

(The replacement roof was made from two IMWX roofs per a technique developed by Terry Wegmann. The one in the photo was from my first try. My second pattern, with milled edges, has an invisible join. I still have that pattern.)

Tom Madden

Speaking of the LL P2K 50' boxcar kits. I was inspired from a visit to a
trucking firm near Des Plaines upon recommendation by Ron Sebastion not too may
years ago. There were 2 early 10-6 50' boxcars used for records storage. One was
a GTW auto-end door. I had to have a model of one.

The problems with the P2K roofs were well known, even then. I needed to remove
the roof anyway because the GTW car had diagonal panels in the mid-field, and
rectangular raised panels on the ends. Realizing the complexity of fitting a Red
Caboose roof against the end door, I thought of another way. I removed only the
panels which were to be replaced with diagonal panel sections. This is where I
benefited from LL keeping the spacing consistent with real roofs (as RH notes).
I made the joints in the middle of a seam cap, and the results were worthy of
the rather easy effort.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


________________________________
Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:



Life-Like did NOT make the same mistake on its P2K models, which have
the correct number of seam caps and panels. What did happen, as Tim
seems relentless about reminding us, is that they misinterpreted the
prototype drawings so that the rectangular panels between the seam
caps were made a bit too wide and lacked a prototypical taper.
Whether one chooses to live with it or replace the entire roof to get
one with more shapely rectangular panels is a judgment call, but the
P2K roof is not incorrect in the same sense as the Athearn roof, for
which there was never a remotely correct prototype.

The roof panels on the 50 foot P2K double door and single door boxcars are
15 panes as I count them. I use the 50 singel door for the Southern 10IH
car and the double door cars for the 10'-6" IH cars.
One thing you do have to be careful of is that the P2K 50' dd car, w/o end
doors has 6 panels to the right side of the car between the end and the
doors. The P2K car with end doors has 7 panels, which matches what the SRR
had. I found this out only after painting and then starting to decal the
car I noticed the decal for the circular monogram (that is the herald for us
modelers, SR people cringe when you say herald) was in the wrong place and
then I counted and found out ...6, count 'em 6 panels! OOPS...Oh well, that
car made good sacrifice ends for the other 50 ft. cars I was doing. So if
you are doing a 50 footer that had 7 panels between the right end and the
doors, you have 2 options, first buy the end door car and replace the end
door with a door from another car or use the non end door car, sand the
sides smooth and make new rivet lines with Archer rivets.
According to Ron at Des Planes Hobbies the difference in panel numbers
between the 2 cars had something to do with the tooling for the models and
the Chinese. Dosen't make sense to me but if you have a P2K 50 foot double
door with and without end doors count the side panels and you will see what
I mean.
Regards,
Fenton
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Richard Hendrickson <
rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Mar 1, 2011, at 3:00 PM, soolinehistory wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@... wrote:

Tim said,

Proto made the stampings of the roof panels far too wide.

Tim, Does this mean there are to few panels in the overall length
of the roof?

Paul Lyons

Yup. It appears they did the same thing Athearn did decades ago.
The S.R.E.Co <http://s.r.e.co/>. roof products used the same size panel

for both

40'and 50' foot cars, 3'5" wide; twelve on the 40' and fifteen on
the 50', IIRC. The slight difference in overall length was made up
in the end panels. For some reason Athearn and P2K both put 14
panels on the 50' car. There is no prototype for this roof.

I seldom find myself disagreeing with Dennis, but in this case he is
adding further confusion on a topic on a topic where there has
already been considerable unnecessary confusion - and that when all
you have to do is take a quick look at the actual prototypes vs. models.

Athearn's old "blue box" 50 AAR steel box car model in plastic (and
subsequent iterations of the original tooling) was a rehash of
Athearn's pressed steel HO scale 50' auto car. The steel model was
based on the Santa Fe Fe-24 class built by Pullman-Standard in
1941-'42. (BTW, the AAR Standard drawings and dimensions for 50'
single and double door steel box cars weren't issued until 1942, so
there was no standard design reference that applied to cars designed
and built before then, though there was a "de facto" standard
followed by most railroads and car builders and based on the 1937 and
1941 40' AAR box car standards). Somehow, in translating the tooling
from stamped metal to styrene, Athearn screwed up the roof, which was
correct on the steel model, so that it's dimensions were stretched
and there were. on the plastic model, one two few seam caps and one
too few rectangular panels between them. An obvious mistake, and
one that could only be fixed by replacing the entire roof, but those
were the days of vintage Uncle Irv, whose stock response to
complaints of inaccacuracy was "screw it, most model railroaders will
never know the difference."

Life-Like did NOT make the same mistake on its P2K models, which have
the correct number of seam caps and panels. What did happen, as Tim
seems relentless about reminding us, is that they misinterpreted the
prototype drawings so that the rectangular panels between the seam
caps were made a bit too wide and lacked a prototypical taper.
Whether one chooses to live with it or replace the entire roof to get
one with more shapely rectangular panels is a judgment call, but the
P2K roof is not incorrect in the same sense as the Athearn roof, for
which there was never a remotely correct prototype.

Richard Hendrickson

--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...

On Mar 1, 2011, at 3:00 PM, soolinehistory wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@... wrote:

Tim said,

Proto made the stampings of the roof panels far too wide.

Tim, Does this mean there are to few panels in the overall length
of the roof?

Paul Lyons

Yup. It appears they did the same thing Athearn did decades ago.
The S.R.E.Co. roof products used the same size panel for both
40'and 50' foot cars, 3'5" wide; twelve on the 40' and fifteen on
the 50', IIRC. The slight difference in overall length was made up
in the end panels. For some reason Athearn and P2K both put 14
panels on the 50' car. There is no prototype for this roof.

I seldom find myself disagreeing with Dennis, but in this case he is
adding further confusion on a topic on a topic where there has
already been considerable unnecessary confusion - and that when all
you have to do is take a quick look at the actual prototypes vs. models.

Athearn's old "blue box" 50 AAR steel box car model in plastic (and
subsequent iterations of the original tooling) was a rehash of
Athearn's pressed steel HO scale 50' auto car. The steel model was
based on the Santa Fe Fe-24 class built by Pullman-Standard in
1941-'42. (BTW, the AAR Standard drawings and dimensions for 50'
single and double door steel box cars weren't issued until 1942, so
there was no standard design reference that applied to cars designed
and built before then, though there was a "de facto" standard
followed by most railroads and car builders and based on the 1937 and
1941 40' AAR box car standards). Somehow, in translating the tooling
from stamped metal to styrene, Athearn screwed up the roof, which was
correct on the steel model, so that it's dimensions were stretched
and there were. on the plastic model, one two few seam caps and one
too few rectangular panels between them. An obvious mistake, and
one that could only be fixed by replacing the entire roof, but those
were the days of vintage Uncle Irv, whose stock response to
complaints of inaccacuracy was "screw it, most model railroaders will
never know the difference."

Life-Like did NOT make the same mistake on its P2K models, which have
the correct number of seam caps and panels. What did happen, as Tim
seems relentless about reminding us, is that they misinterpreted the
prototype drawings so that the rectangular panels between the seam
caps were made a bit too wide and lacked a prototypical taper.
Whether one chooses to live with it or replace the entire roof to get
one with more shapely rectangular panels is a judgment call, but the
P2K roof is not incorrect in the same sense as the Athearn roof, for
which there was never a remotely correct prototype.

Richard Hendrickson

I found something interesting. I have a couple of historic Athearn cars which will soon be built again using Branchline...or something...and a P2K that is on the temporary workbench now. Yes, the Athearn cars have 14 roof panels. No, the P2K car has 15 panels which are no more than an inch or two longer than the panels on a Branchline roof.

It's easy to tell whether there is an even or odd number of panels by looking at the door. If there is a carline centered on the door, there's an even number of panels. If there is a panel centered on the door, there's an odd number.

BTW, both the Athearns and the P2Ks are double door cars. The Athearns are 1970 vintage and the P2K is a fairly old model, maybe mid-90s right after they first appeared.

Does this change anything?

Ron Merrick

Steve Lucas wrote:

Back to Tony's oringinal question--I think that there were no requirements for Canadian STMFC's to have duty paid on them to remain in the US. STMFC's flowed freely across the border, loaded and empty, subject only to Customs inspection and sometimes holding a loaded car in bond in a yard near the border while awaiting Customs clearance.

This would account for a number of observations of Canadian cars evidently moving in intra-U.S. service. It sounds like perhaps this is kind of like the Car Service Rules, where you were SUPPOSED to send that empty Canadian car back to Canada, but hey, it's handy and it's clean, let's confiscate it. Let the NEXT guy take car of sending it home. In other words, I'm saying, the cross-border rules weren't followed rigorously on either side. That's of course in the spirit of car interchange in the first place, but perhaps to the dismay of the customs and tax folks.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

About a year ago I tested several products to see if I could find a really good product that could strip paint off of models....
- without rushing me to the hospital because I inhaled the product's vapors
- without having to wear a chem suit while using it
- without melting the plastic model that I am trying to strip the paint off of
- that is inexpensive to buy
- that it is easy to use
- that is readily available
- that it is easy to dispose of the used chemical

I tested several products using an old MDC 36' wood reefer car body and by far the best product I found was "Goo Gone." After 5 minutes or so, the paint on the car started coming off by itself.

Originally the car's paint was thick with yellow paint on the sides and dark brown on the ends and roof (it was a Morrell reefer). And it had a typical paint job from 20 years ago (thick globs of paint all over it). But after using Goo Gone and an old toothbrush, both colors came right off with no problem.

And after 30 or so minutes, the car was stripped pretty well including between the boards and door details.

It is a little sticky when using it but that's because of the orange citrus in the chemical but it rinses off really well. But I would wear some gloves, goggles and old painters clothes while working with it because it can get messy. Also use it in a ventilated space because it does stink somewhat.

I would definitely try Goo Gone and see what happens. The worst that can happen is that the model smells a bit like an orange and it isn't powerful enough to melt plastic.

- Steve Hedlund, Silver Lake, WA

To: STMFC@...
From: Hman56@...
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 18:29:07 -0500
Subject: Re: [STMFC] paint sripping not car melting




























I have asked the same question on a difference list and got many of the

same answers.

I would think that the car/Loco Mfg. should be able to tell us all what

would work and what will melt the models..........right.



Bill Hodkinson







In a message dated 2/28/2011 11:17:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

ggg9y@... writes:



Ray and Friends,



Whether brake fluid works as a paint stripper depends on the paint and

the plastic. I used to do this a lot years ago, and it worked well for

me with Athearn and Roundhouse paints, but some other paint wouldn't

strip at all. Sometimes the paint came off well, but it wouldn't remove

the lettering.



The plastic itself can also be dicey. I melted a Bachmann 44-tonner

shell in just one night using brake fluid. It is also very bad for some

(maybe most) resin castings. I ruined one of Martin's kits in brake

fluid after a botched paint job. Fortunately, I was able to salvage the

sides and ends, but the floor and roof were really distorted.



I would say, "Use with extreme caution."



Kind regards,



Garth Groff



On 2/28/2011 10:39 AM, Raymond Hatfield wrote:

Hello Don,

I'm new to the list, but this is a subject I can comment on - believe it

or not,

automotive brake fluid is a safe and effective paint stripper for models

(and

autos as well!) I have a 1:350 scale model of the RMS Titanic I had to

totally

strip and repaint, and this worked wonders for me. Use a shallow dish of

an

appropriate size to soak it in, and use an old toothbrush to scrub nooks

and

crannies

Raymond L. Hatfield

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have asked the same question on a difference list and got many of the
same answers.
I would think that the car/Loco Mfg. should be able to tell us all what
would work and what will melt the models..........right.

Bill Hodkinson

--- In STMFC@..., cobrapsl@... wrote:

Tim said,


Proto made the stampings of the roof panels far too wide.

Tim, Does this mean there are to few panels in the overall length of the roof?

Paul Lyons

Yup. It appears they did the same thing Athearn did decades ago. The S.R.E.Co. roof products used the same size panel for both 40'and 50' foot cars, 3'5" wide; twelve on the 40' and fifteen on the 50', IIRC. The slight difference in overall length was made up in the end panels. For some reason Athearn and P2K both put 14 panels on the 50' car. There is no prototype for this roof.

Chet and Tony--

Well known to Canadian roads was the penchant of US roads to keep Canadian cars during car shortages. One of Ian Wilson's books mentions CN train crews being cautioned to be wary of giving a clean CN car to a customer, knowing that the car would be loaded for a destination within the US. Which explains CN cars being loaded with beans, grain, and other lading in the US.

But then again, Canadian roads often appropriated US roads' box cars for grain loading, and anthracite roads' hopper cars for gravel loading! I have copies of mid-1940's elevator ledgers from Midland, Ontario to prove my first assertion. Here's a link to a case study mentioning the use of US roads' cars for grain loading--

http://www.canadianbranchline.com/grain1.htm

From this article--

"Now, let's take a look at the 39 foreign cars which found themselves loading wheat from the Secord at the Tiffin Elevator in July 1943. It is not surprising to see boxcars from roads which connect with the CNR in the Great Lakes area, such as C&O (one car), DL&W (one), Erie (three), GTW (three), L&NE (two), NYC (two), PRR (three), PM (one) and SOU (one). From the New England area, there was the B&M (one). A multitude of roads with Midwestern connections also weighed in, such as AT&SF, CB&Q, CSt.PM&O, M&St.L and SOO (one each), C&NW, IC and MILW (two each) and MP (three). Northwestern roads GN (four) and NP (one) were also represented, as was Southwestern road D&RGW (one). The CASO, an Eastern Canadian road with a small roster, fielded a car."

Back to Tony's oringinal question--I think that there were no requirements for Canadian STMFC's to have duty paid on them to remain in the US. STMFC's flowed freely across the border, loaded and empty, subject only to Customs inspection and sometimes holding a loaded car in bond in a yard near the border while awaiting Customs clearance.

Steve Lucas.

These cars (unlike Branchline) have the roof cast with the sides, not as a separate piece.  I have altered similarly made accurail cars by cutting repeatedly along the roof with an exacto knife even with the inside of the sides.  If you own a dremel using it would be much easier.  The stub of the roof edge can be taken off with a file/sanded upside down on sandpaper glued to a sheet of glass or other flat surface.
 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide

10 replies and not a one suggested how Mark could get the roof off : ))

I'd try running a blade along the sides, then try prying?
RTR sucks!
Clark Propst

If you want to make a 10 IH car out of a P2K just make a cut throught the
top rib, at least with the SR cars that gave me the 4/5 end I needed. I'm
attaching a picture of the A end of the SR 10 IH and the sides of the 50
footer I did. I built new sides using Archer rivets at the seams.
I am dong a clinic on these at the Savannah RPM Meeting in March.
Let me know if I can help.
Regards, Fenton
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>wrote:

Except for the double rivet seams, the P2K cars match the 87100
series. The factory painted cars are in this series. I used one
of Tom Madden's roof castings for mine, it turned out well.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------

87100-871099
10-6 IH, D-5/5, YSD-4/5/5/4 doors, double rivet-row.

The lower end corners do not match the P2K and neither of the
NKP series featured the push-pockets as exists on the P2K cars.
Also, the P2K cars are inteded to be a 10-6 IH design.

Again, it comes down to the accuracy that is acceptable to you.

Ron dePierre

--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]