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Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars
Steve Haas
Dan Holbrook wrote:
"Based on interviews with Car Distributors I worked with, these locations had livestock "reloading", both resting, feed lot and resales, besides the associated meat packing. As such, during WWII it was easier, quicker and faster for the serving carriers to utilize each others cars instead of going to the effort to reswitch, clean and prep the cars and respot. Mixing of equipment regardless of destination was commonplace." And Tony Thompson responded: "I don't understand these statements. The minimum resting time was 5 hours, and animals could not be reloaded into dirty cars or with old bedding. If I understand the rules correctly, there was no alternative to cleaned and rebedded cars. I am not aware that the livestock rules were waived during World War II. But if someone has contrary info, I'd like to hear it." Tony, I don't think that is what Dan is trying to say. I think Dan was trying to say that instead of sorting all the cars by carrier, then going through the cleaning and prep process, that the cars were used as a pool, and cleaned, prepped and spotted regardless of owner. Best regards, Steve Haas Snoqualmie, WA
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Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Dan Holbrook wrote:
Based on interviews with Car Distributors I worked with, these locations had livestock "reloading", both resting, feed lot and resales, besides the associated meat packing. As such, during WWII it was easier, quicker and faster for the serving carriers to utilize each others cars instead of going to the effort to reswitch, clean and prep the cars and respot. Mixing of equipment regardless of destination was commonplace.I don't understand these statements. The minimum resting time was 5 hours, and animals could not be reloaded into dirty cars or with old bedding. If I understand the rules correctly, there was no alternative to cleaned and rebedded cars. I am not aware that the livestock rules were waived during World War II. But if someone has contrary info, I'd like to hear it. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: gon identification
Robert kirkham
Hi Jonathan
Most of the photos of CP's 48' cars I have seen are of cars re-numbered into work service and I lack a way of tracking the original car numbers of cars in work service. Can anyone help with that? In any event, there are photos of CP353148 in Vancouver in the 60's with the fishbelly. The photos are clear enough to discern a clear seam between the bottom of the straight sill/top of the fishbelly sill. I'll see if a copy can be sent to you off list (I don't have one on my hard drive). Also, your observations about the 339 series cars is interesting - I hadn't that of those cars. I'll see whether any of the cars is sufficiently clear to confirm CPR reporting marks. Rob Kirkham -------------------------------------------------- From: "joth1930s" <jothsue@comcast.net> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 11:16 AM To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [STMFC] Re: gon identification I beleive you are right about those CPR Gons. I have never seen a shot of these in service but a builders photo of the CPR 75-ton 48'6" gon. with drop ends is featured in the 1946 Car Builder's Cyc. National Steel Car began building these for the CPR in 1937 with the series 353100-353199 in 6/37, another 100 cars (353200-353299)in 5/38, and a final 200 cars in 12/40 (353300-353499). The series were subsequnetly combined into the 353100-353499 series as seen in the Jan. 1944 ORER. They were rather low sided gons with an interior height of 3'.
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Steam era freight yards, take II
MDelvec952
The photo is posted, at: http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-03-30-11/PRR_freight_yard_1942+edit.jpg
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This is a page from the EL list at railfan.net, a pretty active list. After the photo loads, rolling the thumbwheel on the mouse with the cursor over the photo will enlarge or reduce the image. If anyone can place the location, please share it. The other images on this roll of film are on the PRR in New Jersey and eastern Pa. Thanks ....Mike
In a message dated 03/29/11 01:27:07 Eastern Daylight Time, wjimwolf@yahoo.com writes:
Is this photo going to be posted? I have much the same interest as Mike in viewing it. Jim Wolf --- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, MDelvec952 <MDelvec952@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars
We must not forget that a lot of livestock was finished, ie fattened for
market, in the Midwest. Market ready livestock was loaded at stockpens in areas that by-passed Chicago and had connections to eastern roads. Peoria comes to mind, as does the St Louis gateway. And most western and mid-western roads with access to Chicago also had feed and rest stations in the rural areas just to the west of Chicago. Animals at these stations could be loaded, transferred to the IHB connections and routed to eastern connections with the same speed of meat reefers. Thus transferring western raised animals to eastern slaughter houses, eastern being anything east of Chicago. In regards to the issue of pooling stockcars at various major stockyards, note all the locations named are west of Chicago and were through towns for most railroads that served them. Chicago on the other had was not a through town for most railroads that served Chicago. It was a terminus. As shown above livestock could and did go through Chicago, being loaded at nearby locations or at the feed rest stations. Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
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Re: Mather reefer lettering
Richard Hendrickson
On Mar 30, 2011, at 4:32 PM, richtownsend@netscape.net wrote:
In the late 1950's was there a standard lettering size used onRich, Mather apparently conformed with AAR standards of that period, which were 9" for reporting marks, 7" for numbers, 4" for end reporting marks and numbers, 3" for weight data, and 2" for dimensional data. Other lettering, where present, followed those sizes, and its easy to tell from photos what size it was (e.g., "THE RATH PACKING CO." and 'REFRIGERATOR" were 9", leasing info. was 3"). Richard Hendrickson
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Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars
lstt100
Dave, Based on interviews with Car Distributors I worked with, these locations had livestock "reloading", both resting, feed lot and resales, besides the associated meat packing. As such, during WWII it was easier, quicker and faster for the serving carriers to utilize each others cars instead of going to the effort to reswitch, clean and prep the cars and respot. Mixing of equipment regardless of destination was commonplace. I cannot answer if it reached "East" of Chicago. Dan Holbrook
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Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars
SUVCWORR@...
Allen,
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I just accessed it with Mozilla and Safari Rich Orr
-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Rueter <allen_282@yahoo.com> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Mar 30, 2011 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars Bruce, FYI it seems your web site only works with Internet Exploder. Tho it does look interesting when I look at the source code. -- Allen Rueter StLouis MO ________________________________ From: Randy Williamson <pennsy@centurytel.net> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 30, 2011 2:06:43 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars Bruce, On my website: http://www.prrfreight.com/FW-8.htm it does show livestock being received from Union Stock Yard. Randy Williamson www.prrfreight.com Quoting Bruce Smith : Bruce,Dave, I highly doubt that you will "confirm" anything of the sort. Given rest times for stock and the marketing of stock, PRR stock trains were almost certainly loaded at Chicago stock yards. Now, it is important to realize that "stock yard" is about as descriptive as "steam era freight car", as there were many types of holding facilities. It may be that Chicago's absence from the directive could have been due to pooling already being ongoing or that access to the appropriate yards was via a single railroad or belt railway. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2 "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links =
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Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars
Allen Rueter
Bruce, FYI it seems your web site only works with Internet Exploder.
Tho it does look interesting when I look at the source code. -- Allen Rueter StLouis MO ________________________________ From: Randy Williamson <pennsy@centurytel.net> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 30, 2011 2:06:43 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars Bruce, On my website: http://www.prrfreight.com/FW-8.htm it does show livestock being received from Union Stock Yard. Randy Williamson www.prrfreight.com Quoting Bruce Smith : Bruce,Dave, I highly doubt that you will "confirm" anything of the sort. Given rest times for stock and the marketing of stock, PRR stock trains were almost certainly loaded at Chicago stock yards. Now, it is important to realize that "stock yard" is about as descriptive as "steam era freight car", as there were many types of holding facilities. It may be that Chicago's absence from the directive could have been due to pooling already being ongoing or that access to the appropriate yards was via a single railroad or belt railway. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2 "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: Heated Box Car?
Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...>
For an similiar type car in HO have a look at TrueLine Trains web page
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TLT 300497 CPR 8 Hatch Reefer: http://www.modeltrains.com/WEB%20-%20CMT/True%20Line%20Trains/HO/true-line-trains-canadian-pacific.htm 281001-283500 Steel, 40 ft., 50-ton capacity heated and refrigerated cars with overhead ice tanks, underslung charcoal heater, 5 ft wide doors conventional wooden meat rails and slatted wooden floor racks Cars in series 281850-283500 are equipped with plug-type doors. Built 1946-1956. There were a number of articles on these cars in RMC some time ago.
--- On Wed, 3/30/11, Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@yahoo.ca> wrote:
From: Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@yahoo.ca> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Heated Box Car? To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 8:15 PM I believe you should be looking for insulated box cars subject to Heated Car Service The Railway Association of Canada, Code of Rules for handling Perishable Traffic effective May 1, 1938. Heated car Service Rule 33 Heated Car Service means that carriers will supply heaters to bunkers or tanks of refrigerator cars and light and extinguish them in accordance with "Standard Heating" or "Carriers Protective Service" instructions or in accordance with specific instructions of shippers. Definition of Standard Heating Rule 46 Under "Standard Heating" or "Carriers Protective Service" instructions, inspectors or other employees will light heaters as soon as practicable when the temperature rises above the degree mentioned: Cars moving under "Standard Heating" or "Carriers Protective Service" will in the event of a rise in the outside temperature will have all ventilators manipulated in accordance with Standard Ventilation instructions unless instructions on billing specifically states otherwise and also subject to Exceptions. Wine, Beer, Ginger Ale and other beverages............................32 above zero Some examples of insulated CPR cars from Canadian Pacific's Equipment Data Book: Series 35000 - 35500 Number of cars 495 Description Insulated and heated 40 ft., 50-ton capacity box cars with 6ft wide plug doors, two independent charcoal heating systems, side wall ventilators and laminated hardwood flooring. Series 37000 - 39987 Number of cars 596 Description Insulated and heated 40 ft., 40-ton and 50-ton capacity box cars with 5ft wide hinged or plug doors, slatted wooden floor racks and charcoal heating system. Built 1940-1953. Cars in this service are former ice refrigerated cars restricted to heater service only due to condition of overhead tanks. Carlings Black Label was available on both sides of the 49th, it would not have tasted the same. Same with Lucky Lager. Ross McLeod Calgary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: Southern composite hopper interiors
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
David Thompson wrote:
If the interiors were painted at all (and many weren't) it would have been whatever the exterior color was, and said paint wouldn't have lasted more than a load or two. After that, some combination of bright rust (metal), light or dark wood (depending on age), and coal dust or whatever the last load was.I have a mild disagreement with this statement, based on observations of the insides of LOTS of hopper cars, mostly B&O but including several other roads, during the time I worked at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh. The B&O's Panther Hollow line ran below campus and any passing train was readily observed from a high angle. Although this was in the 1980s, industries in the area utilized predominantly older twin hoppers of the type built and operated during the STMFC era. Most hoppers I saw DID have some interior paint, largely on the upper center of interior walls. Slope sheets were bare metal, sometimes rusty but often polished, unrusted (yet) steel. Lower interior car sides were usually a mix of rust and paint areas. It was certainly evident that all or nearly all of the cars I saw HAD been painted inside originally, and that despite the evident age of the cars and their paint jobs, most DID retain some interior paint. That said, I agree with David that interior weathering of such cars is an interesting challenge and should certainly NOT be all one color. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Heated Box Car?
Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...>
I believe you should be looking for insulated box cars subject to Heated Car Service
The Railway Association of Canada, Code of Rules for handling Perishable Traffic effective May 1, 1938. Heated car Service Rule 33 Heated Car Service means that carriers will supply heaters to bunkers or tanks of refrigerator cars and light and extinguish them in accordance with "Standard Heating" or "Carriers Protective Service" instructions or in accordance with specific instructions of shippers. Definition of Standard Heating Rule 46 Under "Standard Heating" or "Carriers Protective Service" instructions, inspectors or other employees will light heaters as soon as practicable when the temperature rises above the degree mentioned: Cars moving under "Standard Heating" or "Carriers Protective Service" will in the event of a rise in the outside temperature will have all ventilators manipulated in accordance with Standard Ventilation instructions unless instructions on billing specifically states otherwise and also subject to Exceptions. Wine, Beer, Ginger Ale and other beverages............................32 above zero Some examples of insulated CPR cars from Canadian Pacific's Equipment Data Book: Series 35000 - 35500 Number of cars 495 Description Insulated and heated 40 ft., 50-ton capacity box cars with 6ft wide plug doors, two independent charcoal heating systems, side wall ventilators and laminated hardwood flooring. Series 37000 - 39987 Number of cars 596 Description Insulated and heated 40 ft., 40-ton and 50-ton capacity box cars with 5ft wide hinged or plug doors, slatted wooden floor racks and charcoal heating system. Built 1940-1953. Cars in this service are former ice refrigerated cars restricted to heater service only due to condition of overhead tanks. Carlings Black Label was available on both sides of the 49th, it would not have tasted the same. Same with Lucky Lager. Ross McLeod Calgary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: reweigh decals
Richard Hendrickson
On Mar 30, 2011, at 3:18 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Tony, you mentioned Sunshine's line of reweigh decals and thenI'm always surprised that modelers don't know about these. They're much more comprehensive than the Sunshine decals and the reweigh station symbols were chosen from the list that's in the STMFC archives, to which a number of list members contributed. I use them all the time and find them invaluable. Richard Hendrickson
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Mather reefer lettering
Richard Townsend
In the late 1950's was there a standard lettering size used on Mather reefers? If the answer is "they followed the AAR standard," what size lettering would that be?
Richard Townsend Lincoln City, Oregon
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Re: Heated Box Car?
Cyril Durrenberger
The Moore patent refrigerator cars had a heater installed under the car. An example is the model of the vegetable car offered by LaBelle. The ice bunkers were in the center of the car. This type of car was used by many upper mid west railroads for a number of years. The D&IR converted a number of refrigerator cars to this design in the teens, but then converted them into another design in the 1937's and 1940's. Of course, all of this happened before the main period of interest for most of the members on this list.
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Cyril Durrenberger
--- On Wed, 3/30/11, gn3397 <heninger@medicine.nodak.edu> wrote:
From: gn3397 <heninger@medicine.nodak.edu> Subject: [STMFC] Re: Heated Box Car? To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 8:55 AM --- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Harman" <gsgondola@...> wrote: Ok, this question does have to do with late 1950s freight cars and a little bit to do with beer, so hopefully it's a legit question. My uncle was in the USAF in the 1950s, stationed in Canada someplace. Not sure where but it was cold. He said the only American beer they could get was Carling Black Label, which had to be shipped in a "heated box car" to keep it from freezing, and apparently this only happened every so often - hence his hangover story from drinking 19 bottles of Molson's ale. The implication being he would have been just fine after 19 Carlings. Anyway, I have never heard any reference to a "heated box car" before or since, and I'm wondering what exactly he was referring to? It makes sense that in some places you'd want to keep the manifest from freezing. But I don't think simply having an insulated box car would have prevented beer from freezing at the sub-zero (F) temperatures of winter north of the 48th. I've been there, and no American beer would have stood a chance. So - is/was there ever any such thing as a heated box car? This thought just popped into my head between the beer thread, and thinking about reefers both ice and mechanical, I don't think the mechanicals were heat pumps nor would they have done much good at 17 below. Andy Andy, It was common for ice bunker refrigerator cars to have charcoal, and perhaps alcohol, heaters lowered into the bunkers to prevent loads from freezing. The example I am most familiar with is GN (Western Fruit Express) using them to keep loads of potatoes from freezing during winter transport. Many of the Canadian built reefers had permanently installed heaters on the underframes, but most US reefer operators couldn't justify the cost/weight penalty. I suppose that some insulated box cars could have temporary heaters placed on the floor as well, but an advantage to having them in the bunker is it helped avoid tipping of the heater, reducing (but not eliminating, of course) the risk of fire. Perhaps this is the heated box car your uncle was referring to? Having grown up in North Dakota, and being no stranger to subzero temperatures myself, I agree that a heater placed in a standard uninsulated boxcar would have little chance of raising the inside temperature above freezing. Sincerely, Robert D. Heninger Iowa City, IA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: Southern composite hopper interiors
David
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:
If the interiors were painted at all (and many weren't) it would have been whatever the exterior color was, and said paint wouldn't have lasted more than a load or two. After that, some combination of bright rust (metal), light or dark wood (depending on age), and coal dust or whatever the last load was. David Thompson
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Re: Tony's reweigh article
MDelvec952
Several other modern-era modelers have told me the same thing, that
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cars are still reweighed periodically. But the STENCILING conventions have changed -- the shop location and date are not required to be put on the car next to the light weight and load limit. In fact, nowadays, the NEW stencil sometimes shows the original built date of the car for the entire life of the car! (Which is what prompted a thread about the changes in stenciling conventions in the 1970's.) I know this is out of STMFC scope, but you might want to revise your article slightly. Tim O'Connor
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Mar 30, 2011 6:04 pm Subject: [STMFC] re: Tony's reweigh article ------------------------ Modern cars are reweighed more often than you think. Where I work there were a few cases were loaded cars were detected as overweight in CSX yards and trucks had to be sent from somewhere to reduce that weight. Similarly, covered hoppers carrying plastic pellets are loaded while the car is sitting on a scale. Quite often the Union Tank Car mobile unit that's based here has to repaint the light weight stencils while the car is being loaded or in the storage yards before it ships. Similarly, Union Tank gets requests to restencil the gallon capacity on cars that the loaders detect needs changing. On a similar note, just this week the FRA sent defect reports on two tank cars outside of our fence requiring that faded capy stencils be freshened up. No location marks are required except on airbrake work. Scale test cars still tour the Class 1 systems, and these are steam-era gems. The ones that visit here annually are WWI-era "Walthers" cars that still carry Carmer cut levers, stem-winder brakes and "Kadee" couplers. They are required to be moved one car from the hind end. ....Mike
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Re: Tony's reweigh article
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Tim O'Connor wrote:
But very recently, Jim Homoki posted this to RPM-ForumThanks, Tim. I know about the 1968 modification, thanks to an e- mail from Frank Greene. I have added Frank's information to my blog post in the form of a comment. I was told awhile back by a former carman that he was sure cars were not being reweighed light in the late 1970s, so perhaps the 60-month requirement instituted in 1973 was discontinued again after a few years. But as you say, it's well beyond the concern of this list. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: reweigh decals
Tony, you mentioned Sunshine's line of reweigh decals and then
wrote that "Champ also did a set". Actually, Champ produced 12 sets -- HD-50 reweigh station symbols N'east HD-51 reweigh station symbols North HD-52 reweigh station symbols West HD-53 reweigh station symbols South HD-60 reweigh dates 1930-1934 HD-61 reweigh dates 1935-1939 HD-62 reweigh dates 1940-1944 HD-63 reweigh dates 1945-1949 HD-64 reweigh dates 1950-1954 HD-65 reweigh dates 1955-1959 HD-66 reweigh dates 1960-1969 HD-67 reweigh dates 1970-1979 Sunshine's sets (and Ted Culotta's decals too) are not especially useful for modelers of the mid 1950's or later. There are VERY FEW dates on the sets after 1955, compared to the huge numbers of dates for the 1940's or early 1950's. Champ's HD-65 has been a lifesaver for me! All of the sets contain a variety of type sizes and styles including distinctive prototype styles such as PRR. Union Pacific modelers 1950's are out in the cold -- no yellow reweigh sets from Sunshine or Champ, although Champ did a "UP data" set... but I think that was just a part of one of Champ's UP freight car sets. Tim O'Connor
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Re: Heated Box Car?
Andy Harman
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 13:38:21 -0700, Jim Betz wrote
It is unlikely that the brand/source of the beer had anythingWell this just got more interesting. Googling on Carling, it turns out they were and still are a Canadian beer, not American - and presently owned by... Molson. Brewed in London, ON. I thought for sure he said that the American beer was Carling but it could have been something else, or maybe it was the only American "style" beer. At any rate, wherever he was it must have had to travel more distance than Molson. Then again after 19 beers, who could keep their story straight anyway? :-) But I did learn something new... charcoal heaters in ice reefers. Cool. Er... warm. Andy
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