Date   

Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

On 13 Apr 2011 at 17:20, Tim O'Connor wrote:


What inherently makes them any "trickier" than the Gould/Tichy
tank car kit? Poor engineering is not a result of the materials.

I do both but fine styrene easier simply because
MEK on a small brush, for me, is an easier glue.


Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Necessary Freight cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 13, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:

But to make our requests more attractive, it might be helpful to
provide a
background summary on those cars which receive the most votes (how
many
prototypes were built, how many railroads ran them) and sources of
prototype
information for them...
As I think Jack knows, several of us on this list who have some
credibility as prototype researchers do this as a matter of course if
we think a particular manufacturer might be interested in a specific
project, or - as sometimes happens - if we get a request to suggest
one or more future projects. More often than not, nothing comes of
it. But occasionally a seed takes root and eventually results in a
new model, or series of models. I doubt that the Pennsy Society poll
would, in itself, influence anybody very much, but manufacturers are
very much aware that (1) the PRR is a very popular railroad and also
that (2) a number of PRR Society members like Bruce Smith can be
relied on to back up their preferences with copious prototype
drawings, photos, data, etc. as opposed to the usual modelers' hot
air about "if you did those XYZ box cars, me and my friends would buy
a whole bunch of them." Manufacturers' decisions about what models
to produce are influenced by a vast number of considerations about
tooling and production costs, past experiences with similar models,
marketing (to the entire hobby, not just the prototype freight car
freaks on the STMFC list), and even, in some cases, the decision
makers' personal preferences with regard to era, favorite railroad,
favorite car types. etc. If you want to get a model made, forget
about polling the STMFC list or any other group of modelers, many of
whom don't really know what they want until they see it on the hobby
shop counter or on the internet. Gather a really complete set of
drawings, photos, and other information, figure out which
manufacturer is most likely to be receptive, and send 'em the stuff.
If they say no, try another manufacturer (but whatever you do, don't
send it to several at once; that's the kiss of death, as no one will
risk investing in a project that others may also be working on). In
any case, endless discussions on the STMFC list about "the models we
really need" may provide some ego gratification to the posters but
are likely to produce absolutely zero in the way of results. Want to
do something useful? Go do some serious research that might be
helpful to manufacturers or other serious modelers. Or - now, here's
a novel idea - sit down at your workbench and build some of the many
kits you already have stashed away. Almost everyone on this list
already has most of the freight car fleet they need already on hand
in boxes just waiting to be be built/finished.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Jim

What inherently makes them any "trickier" than the Gould/Tichy
tank car kit? Poor engineering is not a result of the materials.

I find Intermountain tank cars "tricky" because I have to remove
all of the atrocious cast-on brake details...

Tim O'Connor

At 4/13/2011 04:52 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
Plus the fact that all the resin tank car kits are tricky to assemble.
Jim


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff, given a level of equally high accuracy and detail,
I think there is a natural RTR ordering:

type MSRP quantity
------------------------------------------
hand crafted brass $250+ 100-200
molded urethane resin $100+ 300-500
shake-the-box-resin? $ 50+ 500-1000?
injection molded styrene $ 40+ 10000+

Overland imported an X-3 many years ago. I had to modify
mine (with a soldering iron) to change it to AB brakes and
I had to correct the trucks. Sunshine makes an X-3, but it
would definitely end up being priced over $100 if kits are
built in China/Korea/USA/etc.

Anyway, the point is that if there is demand for 10000 models
over some period of time, then the huge up-front investment in
injection molds is justified.

As for "shake-the-box resin" I would include partially-assembled
cars in that category -- like the buyer has to add stirrups, grabs
and brake rods.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------------------

It is messages like this one that prompted me to ask the question about RTR resin. People want an X-3 (and other cars) IN PLASTIC. Sunshine already makes a resin kit for the X-3. So why do folks want it in RTR plastic? Is it because they want the material to be plastic, in particular? I guess the answer is "no" - personally, I don't care if the car is made out of bamboo, so long as it is nicely executed.
So that leaves a few possible reasons: availability (not a problem w/ other resin mfrs), pre-painting / lettering, or the fact that the plastic car will be RTR.

Regards,

-Jeff


Hacked Message

John S. Frantz
 

I apologize for the link. My account got hacked this afternoon and it's now been taken care of.

Best Regards,
John Frantz

York, PA

Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Maryland & Pennsylvania and Western Maryland Railroads.


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Bruce Smith
 

It is messages like this one that prompted me to ask the question
about RTR resin. People want an X-3 (and other cars) IN PLASTIC.
Sunshine already makes a resin kit for the X-3. So why do folks
want it in RTR plastic? Is it because they want the material to be
plastic, in particular? I guess the answer is "no" - personally, I
don't care if the car is made out of bamboo, so long as it is
nicely executed.
So that leaves a few possible reasons: availability
(not a problem w/ other resin mfrs), pre-painting / lettering, or
the fact that the plastic car will be RTR.
Jeff,

I'll take an X-3 KIT in plastic! I have a number of X-3 in resin,
all yet to be built. It takes me about 2 hours to build a P2K Type
21 or IM type 27 kit, I get a fully (or nearly so) detailed car,
already painted and lettered. Even better, I can batch these cars
and get twice as many done in the same amount of time. It takes the
average modeler about 10 hours to build a Sunshine X-3 and doing 2 at
once results in about a 25-50% time savings, since they need the
"fiddly" work that such kits demand. To me its a no brainer -
injection molded kits are far easier and faster to build and since
I'm working on a roster, I vote for plastic whenever possible.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
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| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
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Re: MP hoppers in California

Dave Nelson
 

-----Richard Hendrickson writes-----

The Kaiser steel plant in Fontana, CA, built during World War II, consumed
large quantities of coal. At first, the coal came from Utah, mostly in UP,
D&RGW hoppers, and UCR drop bottom gondolas and UP and D&RGW hoppers; all
are visible in various wartime and postwar yard shots at Barstow and San
Bernardino. There was a Santa Fe Fontana turn that conveyed coal and other
supplies from San Bernardino to the Fontana steel plant 9 miles down the
Second District towards Los Angeles. But that's as far as those cars got,
and they never appeared anywhere else on the Los Angeles Division. Ca.
1950, the coal began coming from a different source (I"m not sure where) in
mostly Missouri Pacific hoppers....


---- I reply --------
Utah coal was poor coking coal and so it needed to be blended with a bit of
something better. The nearest source that fit the bill are the coal fields
in NW Arkansas, an area that does have MP lines. IMO it is very likely the
appearance of MP hoppers in Utah and Southern California is related to the
above facts and given that the need to blend was known before Kaiser opened
up I expect the Arkansas coal may well have been arriving from the start of
operations at Fontana.

FWIW, in one year coal from British Columbia was tried at the blast furnaces
at Geneva and/or Ironton Ut. As it was just the one year I expect it was
either not as suitable as desired or too expensive to obtain because after
that the coal imports to Utah were always from Arkansas.

Dave Nelson


Re: MP hoppers California to West Virginia

Nathan Obermeyer
 

Being a Mopac fan I'm enjoying the discussion on the Mopac hoppers. By chance what road numbers would these cars carry? I model outside the scope of this forum, but greatly enjoy discussions like this one.

Jerry, I have a Mopac specific question reference Mopac hoppers used on my section of the line and would appreicate if you would contact me off list to discuss them. obermeyern AT yahoo.com

Nate

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, jerryglow@... wrote:

From my observations in Lala land, I've seen high sided MP gondolas (usually singles) with coke but full strings of hoppers were coal.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@> wrote:

Mike

Those MP hoppers could have originated in Texas, and could be
filled with coke made from petroleum. I have a photo showing
three MP, one B&O, and one N&W hopper loaded with petroleum coke
at a Texas refinery.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Jim Hayes
 

Plus the fact that all the resin tank car kits are tricky to assemble.

Jim


On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Aley, Jeff A <Jeff.A.Aley@intel.com> wrote:



All,

It is messages like this one that prompted me to ask the question about RTR
resin. People want an X-3 (and other cars) IN PLASTIC. Sunshine already
makes a resin kit for the X-3. So why do folks want it in RTR plastic? Is it
because they want the material to be plastic, in particular? I guess the
answer is "no" - personally, I don't care if the car is made out of bamboo,
so long as it is nicely executed.
So that leaves a few possible reasons: availability (not a problem w/ other
resin mfrs), pre-painting / lettering, or the fact that the plastic car will
be RTR.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
ealabhan0
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 9:56 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

I suggest that the UTLX X-3 tank car would fit perfectly into ExactRail's
Signature Series, next to their MILW ribsides.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: MP hoppers in California (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Mike;

I saw PRR hoppers in SoCal when I (first visited then) lived there, and SP
and ATSF hoppers in the mountains of Pennsylvania. The idea that hoppers
tended to stay close to home is valid, but it is also valid that they got
around!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike
brock
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 12:44 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MP hoppers in California



Richard Hendrickson writes:

All of this having been well
documented, I know of no Santa Fe gurus who have pulled out even a
single hair over it. And by the way (get ready for a cheap shot), this
particular Santa Fe guru still has a full head of hair, unlike our
esteemed list administrator.
I would speculate that your barber might reduce his fee after you have run
Prototype Rails AND the STMFC for ten yrs.<G> Actually, I appreciate the fact
that my haircuts are rather quicker than some. Gives me more time to work on
Prototype Rails. Only 8 more months. Geeez.

The MP hopper story...and the source of its coal would not be complete
without mentioning the photo on the inside cover of the UPHS The Streamliner,
Vol 18, #4. It shows a train of 40 or so hopper cars near Lyndyll, UT,[ 118
miles south of SLC ] in 1952 which contains at least 2 MP
3 bay hoppers [ and probably 2 more ]. Utah coal? Possibly. Of additional
interest are the P&LE and NYC gons at the first of the train...loaded with
something that looks like...coal. To complicate the issue is the eastbound UP
train at Wahsatch, UT [ 65 miles east of Ogden on the Ogden/Cheyenne mainline
]. In its consist are a 50 ton and 70 ton MP hopper...plus 2 Rock Island
gons...apparently MTY. Add to that the MP hoppers at Laramie.

Mike Brock





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Aley, Jeff A
 

All,

It is messages like this one that prompted me to ask the question about RTR resin. People want an X-3 (and other cars) IN PLASTIC. Sunshine already makes a resin kit for the X-3. So why do folks want it in RTR plastic? Is it because they want the material to be plastic, in particular? I guess the answer is "no" - personally, I don't care if the car is made out of bamboo, so long as it is nicely executed.
So that leaves a few possible reasons: availability (not a problem w/ other resin mfrs), pre-painting / lettering, or the fact that the plastic car will be RTR.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ealabhan0
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 9:56 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

I suggest that the UTLX X-3 tank car would fit perfectly into ExactRail's Signature Series, next to their MILW ribsides.


Re: Necessary Freight cars

Jack Burgess
 

Bruce wrote:
<No need to come to a "consensus". Jerry Britton sends out a poll to
<the PRR lists every year asking for the top 3 requests in a variety
<of categories. He simply coalated the responses in each scale and
<forwarded it to as many manufacturers as he could find. It is
<remarkable over the years how many of the top cars and locomotives
<have ended up being produced! Was if cause and effect or simply a
<correlation? We may never know ;^)

Finescale Models magazine does the same thing each year, collecting requests
for new kits and it seems the manufacturer's listen. Of course, there are
more model builders than model railroaders.

But to make our requests more attractive, it might be helpful to provide a
background summary on those cars which receive the most votes (how many
prototypes were built, how many railroads ran them) and sources of prototype
information for them...

Jack Burgess
Newark, CA


Re: RTR Resin

Tim O'Connor
 

Gene Green wrote

>> ... let us take up the matter of freight car trucks. Who among us
>> has identified a freight car truck as 'wrong' just because the journal
>> box lids do not match the prototype? I suspect no one has.

Guilty. :-[

>> maybe the bolster

Yep. Guilty.

>> perhaps the brake beams

Yes, well, when it comes to Wabcopacs (truck mounted brakes)

>> When will we judge a models accuracy based on the correct retaining valve?

When someone makes a correct retaining valve?

Tim O'Connor


Re: Necessary Freight cars

Bruce Smith
 

On Apr 13, 2011, at 3:13 PM, Paul Catapano wrote:

Is it possible to (a) reach a consensus, and (b) choose say five
cars and (c) campaign heavily with the model manufacturers for
their production?

Then each year update the list bumping those that have been
produced and replacing them with cars drawn from the next five?

Didn't the SPH&TS recently ask for money up front for the
production of a recent flat car and guarantee the donor some cars
upon release? (Or something like that).

What is your favorite car worth to you?

Paul Catapano
Paul,

No need to come to a "consensus". Jerry Britton sentout a pole to
the PRR lists every year asking for the top 3 requests in a variety
of categories. He simply coalated the responses in each scale and
forwarded it to as many manufacturers as he could find. It is
remarkable over the years how many of the top cars and locomotives
have ended up being produced! Was if cause and effect or simply a
correlation? We may never know ;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Necessary Freight cars

Paul Catapano
 

Is it possible to (a) reach a consensus,  and (b) choose say five cars and (c) campaign heavily with the model manufacturers for their production?
 
Then each year update the list bumping those that have been produced and replacing them with cars drawn from the next five?
 
Didn't the SPH&TS recently ask for money up front for the production of a recent flat car and guarantee the donor some cars upon release? (Or something like that).
 
What is your favorite car worth to you?

Paul Catapano

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

I think the GATC 6-dome tanks would be good sellers -- they
went all over the country, and wore a number of paint schemes.
I'd definitely be interested in several. The brass PSC models
usually fetch over $200 on Ebay. Of course, whoever makes them
in plastic would be free to paint them PRR, UP, ATSF, etc. :-)

Tim O'Connor

I would like a good (accurate) 2 ,3, or 6 dome tank
(injected). While I realize they were rare I think they
would sell. The manufacture (or importer) could paint
them with granny goose for all I care as long as a
couple of correct ones were done. As most will say
they are too rare for a prototype RR that fact alone
would probably make them good sellers. How many
will sell, who knows.

Jon Miller


(No subject)

John S. Frantz
 


XLT hardware question

Jim Mischke
 

In source material, I have always seen XLT car hardware discussed in a B&O freight car context. QUESTION: has anybody seen XLT hardware mentioned in non-B&O or vendor literature and drawings?



Background:

B&O car superintendent John Tatum (during 1915-1941) had 64 rolling stock patents, which B&O allowed him to market under his trade name XLT (short for Excellent-Tatum). Conflict of interest concerns aside, these were available to be specified on B&O rolling stock orders and presumably off B&O as well. It is not clear if he received any royalties, from B&O or other, over or under the table.

Many Tatum XLT freight car parts only made cost sense on B&O, who made parts on the cheap from recovered salvaged feedstock (sheet, rods, etc.) at their Cumberland Forge. Tatum designed hardware and cost justified its use with this in-house capability in mind. Might not be worthwhile at another railroad or carbuilder.


Here are some examples:

- B&O wagontop boxcar and caboose design

- M-27B/F Tatum XLT roof for Evans foldaway auto loader ramps (Sunshine calls this a Mansnard roof, but that is a Loftonism)

- XLT brake step (simply folded sheet metal, no brackets)

- XLT rubber pads for passenger car trucks

- M-15j wood boxcar ends (once thought to be vendor Indestructable Ends, but these are actually XLT reinforced ends applied to many B&O wood boxcars of various classes)

- freight car truck designs, archbar and cast

- an endless array of brackets and widgets, many dozens, not all were patented


I have heard of "XLM" hardware in a Frank Murphy car design context. Speculation: since Tatum and carbuilder Murphy knew each other well, perhaps this XLM means Excellent Murphy as a friendly dig at Tatum.


I find myself saying that XLT hardware was B&O only, but I have not studied other railroads' rolling stock in similar depth; and thought this would be a good question to pose to this group.


Re: Baltimore and Ohio hopper cars...

Jim Mischke
 

The B&O hopper car at North Conway, marked 829839, is a curious aberration.

During 1965-66, B&O leased some offset side twin hoppers from Maine Central, all painted in B&O Billboard lettering scheme. This lease was temporary, you will one find this series only in the 1965 or 1966 Railway Equipment Register. Because they were leased, it carried no B&O or B&O/C&O class number.

Returned to Maine Central it was repainted. You can see how the museum approched it when acquired, this series often had B&O lettering showing through. The assumption was that it is former B&O. Well, yes. For about a year. It might be more properly displayed as a Maine Central car in MC paint.

I have no photos of this series on B&O. Maybe Paul Dunn saw one but I do not know. Only have photos on Maine Central afterwards with B&O lettering showing through fading MC paint.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:


Steve Lucas asked:
"I've been told on this list that B&O hopper cars had Duryea draft gear. What
online photos I can find confirm this, except for this car painted up as B&O
829839 on the Conway Scenic at North Conway, NH--

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2176474

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2190867

This car appears to have conventional draft gear.

Was this a B&O car, or is it a 12" = 1' reproduction using another road's car?"

Later classes of B&O offset hopper cars (N-41, N-44 twins; W-8, W-9 triples) did
not have Duryea cushion underframes.  However, in the case of this car, the car
number appears to be bogus as it doesn't fall inside any pre-1964 B&O hopper
number series.  The closest number series is 829300-829783, Class N-41a, 484
ex-LNE cars acquired in 1963.

As Rich Orr suggested, see my article in the May/June 2009 issue of The B&O
Modeler for more information on the B&O hopper fleet.


Ben Hom


My top 6 list

S hed <shed999@...>
 

Speaking of missing significant cars I have a top 6 list of cars and 1 engine that would be great to have but is not available in HO-scale. And this list is not in any kind of order.

- Pennsylvania RR XL box car. Something like 37,000 were made. Westerfield made a resin kit of this car.
- Pennsylvania RR K8 stock car. 1,000 cars were built. No one has ever made this car.
- AC&F 36' box car. Dozens of railroads had this design and it would make a welcome replacement to the MDC 36' box car.
- AC&F 36' refrigerator car. Dozens of railroads and private companies, including Armour and Wilson, had these and it would make a welcome replacement to the MDC 36' reefer.
- AC&F 36' stock car. Dozens of railroads had these cars and it would make a welcome replacement to the MDC 36' stock car.
- AAR 4-Bay Offset Open Hopper. This would be an upgrade to the old Athearn car and I think would be welcomed by everyone especially by B&O modelers.

As a note, I realize that the railroads and companies that had the AC&F built cars were not 100% identical with each other but I don't care. Close enough is good enough with me. I do like the MDC cars but any kind of improved version of the car would be excellent.

My 1 engine that I would want is a 2-8-0 that is smaller to the Spectrum 2-8-0 including smaller drivers.

- Steve Hedlund, Silver Lake, WA

88881 - 88900 of 187869