Date   

Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
I think the GATC 6-dome tanks would be good sellers -- they went all over the country, and wore a number of paint schemes.
I'd definitely be interested in several. The brass PSC models usually fetch over $200 on Ebay. Of course, whoever makes them
in plastic would be free to paint them PRR, UP, ATSF, etc. :-)
Don't forget D&RGW which had them as water cars. BTW, Tim, the 2011 NMRA National Convention in Sacramento in July has a couple of "convention" cars, one of which is a Proto2k/Walthers insulated tank car lettered for wine service, CDLX reporting marks. (But no NMRA or convention logo, offered only as a decal in the box)

Tony Thompson
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937;
e-mail: thompson@signaturepress.com


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

armprem2 <armprem2@...>
 

Not for me.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Missing Significant Frt Cars




I think the GATC 6-dome tanks would be good sellers -- they
went all over the country, and wore a number of paint schemes.
I'd definitely be interested in several. The brass PSC models
usually fetch over $200 on Ebay. Of course, whoever makes them
in plastic would be free to paint them PRR, UP, ATSF, etc. :-)

Tim O'Connor

> I would like a good (accurate) 2 ,3, or 6 dome tank
>(injected). While I realize they were rare I think they
>would sell. The manufacture (or importer) could paint
>them with granny goose for all I care as long as a
>couple of correct ones were done. As most will say
>they are too rare for a prototype RR that fact alone
>would probably make them good sellers. How many
>will sell, who knows.
>
>Jon Miller




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Kadee Trucks

Richard Hendrickson
 

Here's a heads-up on what I regard as an important development.

In exchange for some prototype information I provided, Sam Clarke at
Kadee has very kindly sent me some samples of their newest HGC self-
centering trucks. As many of you know, Kadee is engaged in a
continuing effort to replace their older sprung trucks with new
trucks molded in HGC material with the springs molded integral with
the side frames. The latest results of this effort are: #567 50
ton National B-1 (33" ribbed back wheels), #568 50 ton National B-1
(33" smooth back wheels), #569 100 ton Roller Bearing (36" smooth
back wheels), #570 70 ton Barber S-2 Roller Bearing (33" smooth back
wheels), and #583 Arch Bar Caboose w. Leaf Springs (33" ribbed back
wheels).

These new trucks are all superb representations of the prototype
trucks, with full brake shoes and rigging and Kadee's patented frame
construction, which provides both self-equalization to help keep them
on uneven track and self centering so that the trucks will
automatically line up with the track when car is picked up. The HGC
material is both tough and slippery, and in my informal tests the new
trucks are exceptionally free rolling. Wheel sets are Kadee's
familiar cast metal on nylon axles and the wheels are code 110
profile, but I understand Kadee is thinking seriously about possibly
producing code 88 semi-scale wheel sets as well. Mounting screws are
provided. List price on all of them is $8.95.

For steam era modelers, the National B-1 trucks are especially
appealing, as they are exceptionally well detailed including
"daylight" around the bolster ends and cast-on lettering on the side
frames. Some of us can certainly use the leaf-spring Arch Bar
caboose trucks as well, whose side frames are much thinner and closer
to scale than most other HO scale arch bars. I was about to put a
pair of Proto 2000 National B-1s on a Monon AAR 1937 spec. box car,
but now that I have them the Kadees are definitely going on this model.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

On 13 Apr 2011 at 17:20, Tim O'Connor wrote:


What inherently makes them any "trickier" than the Gould/Tichy
tank car kit? Poor engineering is not a result of the materials.

I do both but fine styrene easier simply because
MEK on a small brush, for me, is an easier glue.


Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Necessary Freight cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 13, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:

But to make our requests more attractive, it might be helpful to
provide a
background summary on those cars which receive the most votes (how
many
prototypes were built, how many railroads ran them) and sources of
prototype
information for them...
As I think Jack knows, several of us on this list who have some
credibility as prototype researchers do this as a matter of course if
we think a particular manufacturer might be interested in a specific
project, or - as sometimes happens - if we get a request to suggest
one or more future projects. More often than not, nothing comes of
it. But occasionally a seed takes root and eventually results in a
new model, or series of models. I doubt that the Pennsy Society poll
would, in itself, influence anybody very much, but manufacturers are
very much aware that (1) the PRR is a very popular railroad and also
that (2) a number of PRR Society members like Bruce Smith can be
relied on to back up their preferences with copious prototype
drawings, photos, data, etc. as opposed to the usual modelers' hot
air about "if you did those XYZ box cars, me and my friends would buy
a whole bunch of them." Manufacturers' decisions about what models
to produce are influenced by a vast number of considerations about
tooling and production costs, past experiences with similar models,
marketing (to the entire hobby, not just the prototype freight car
freaks on the STMFC list), and even, in some cases, the decision
makers' personal preferences with regard to era, favorite railroad,
favorite car types. etc. If you want to get a model made, forget
about polling the STMFC list or any other group of modelers, many of
whom don't really know what they want until they see it on the hobby
shop counter or on the internet. Gather a really complete set of
drawings, photos, and other information, figure out which
manufacturer is most likely to be receptive, and send 'em the stuff.
If they say no, try another manufacturer (but whatever you do, don't
send it to several at once; that's the kiss of death, as no one will
risk investing in a project that others may also be working on). In
any case, endless discussions on the STMFC list about "the models we
really need" may provide some ego gratification to the posters but
are likely to produce absolutely zero in the way of results. Want to
do something useful? Go do some serious research that might be
helpful to manufacturers or other serious modelers. Or - now, here's
a novel idea - sit down at your workbench and build some of the many
kits you already have stashed away. Almost everyone on this list
already has most of the freight car fleet they need already on hand
in boxes just waiting to be be built/finished.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Jim

What inherently makes them any "trickier" than the Gould/Tichy
tank car kit? Poor engineering is not a result of the materials.

I find Intermountain tank cars "tricky" because I have to remove
all of the atrocious cast-on brake details...

Tim O'Connor

At 4/13/2011 04:52 PM Wednesday, you wrote:
Plus the fact that all the resin tank car kits are tricky to assemble.
Jim


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff, given a level of equally high accuracy and detail,
I think there is a natural RTR ordering:

type MSRP quantity
------------------------------------------
hand crafted brass $250+ 100-200
molded urethane resin $100+ 300-500
shake-the-box-resin? $ 50+ 500-1000?
injection molded styrene $ 40+ 10000+

Overland imported an X-3 many years ago. I had to modify
mine (with a soldering iron) to change it to AB brakes and
I had to correct the trucks. Sunshine makes an X-3, but it
would definitely end up being priced over $100 if kits are
built in China/Korea/USA/etc.

Anyway, the point is that if there is demand for 10000 models
over some period of time, then the huge up-front investment in
injection molds is justified.

As for "shake-the-box resin" I would include partially-assembled
cars in that category -- like the buyer has to add stirrups, grabs
and brake rods.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------------------

It is messages like this one that prompted me to ask the question about RTR resin. People want an X-3 (and other cars) IN PLASTIC. Sunshine already makes a resin kit for the X-3. So why do folks want it in RTR plastic? Is it because they want the material to be plastic, in particular? I guess the answer is "no" - personally, I don't care if the car is made out of bamboo, so long as it is nicely executed.
So that leaves a few possible reasons: availability (not a problem w/ other resin mfrs), pre-painting / lettering, or the fact that the plastic car will be RTR.

Regards,

-Jeff


Hacked Message

John S. Frantz
 

I apologize for the link. My account got hacked this afternoon and it's now been taken care of.

Best Regards,
John Frantz

York, PA

Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Maryland & Pennsylvania and Western Maryland Railroads.


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Bruce Smith
 

It is messages like this one that prompted me to ask the question
about RTR resin. People want an X-3 (and other cars) IN PLASTIC.
Sunshine already makes a resin kit for the X-3. So why do folks
want it in RTR plastic? Is it because they want the material to be
plastic, in particular? I guess the answer is "no" - personally, I
don't care if the car is made out of bamboo, so long as it is
nicely executed.
So that leaves a few possible reasons: availability
(not a problem w/ other resin mfrs), pre-painting / lettering, or
the fact that the plastic car will be RTR.
Jeff,

I'll take an X-3 KIT in plastic! I have a number of X-3 in resin,
all yet to be built. It takes me about 2 hours to build a P2K Type
21 or IM type 27 kit, I get a fully (or nearly so) detailed car,
already painted and lettered. Even better, I can batch these cars
and get twice as many done in the same amount of time. It takes the
average modeler about 10 hours to build a Sunshine X-3 and doing 2 at
once results in about a 25-50% time savings, since they need the
"fiddly" work that such kits demand. To me its a no brainer -
injection molded kits are far easier and faster to build and since
I'm working on a roster, I vote for plastic whenever possible.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Re: MP hoppers in California

Dave Nelson
 

-----Richard Hendrickson writes-----

The Kaiser steel plant in Fontana, CA, built during World War II, consumed
large quantities of coal. At first, the coal came from Utah, mostly in UP,
D&RGW hoppers, and UCR drop bottom gondolas and UP and D&RGW hoppers; all
are visible in various wartime and postwar yard shots at Barstow and San
Bernardino. There was a Santa Fe Fontana turn that conveyed coal and other
supplies from San Bernardino to the Fontana steel plant 9 miles down the
Second District towards Los Angeles. But that's as far as those cars got,
and they never appeared anywhere else on the Los Angeles Division. Ca.
1950, the coal began coming from a different source (I"m not sure where) in
mostly Missouri Pacific hoppers....


---- I reply --------
Utah coal was poor coking coal and so it needed to be blended with a bit of
something better. The nearest source that fit the bill are the coal fields
in NW Arkansas, an area that does have MP lines. IMO it is very likely the
appearance of MP hoppers in Utah and Southern California is related to the
above facts and given that the need to blend was known before Kaiser opened
up I expect the Arkansas coal may well have been arriving from the start of
operations at Fontana.

FWIW, in one year coal from British Columbia was tried at the blast furnaces
at Geneva and/or Ironton Ut. As it was just the one year I expect it was
either not as suitable as desired or too expensive to obtain because after
that the coal imports to Utah were always from Arkansas.

Dave Nelson


Re: MP hoppers California to West Virginia

Nathan Obermeyer
 

Being a Mopac fan I'm enjoying the discussion on the Mopac hoppers. By chance what road numbers would these cars carry? I model outside the scope of this forum, but greatly enjoy discussions like this one.

Jerry, I have a Mopac specific question reference Mopac hoppers used on my section of the line and would appreicate if you would contact me off list to discuss them. obermeyern AT yahoo.com

Nate

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, jerryglow@... wrote:

From my observations in Lala land, I've seen high sided MP gondolas (usually singles) with coke but full strings of hoppers were coal.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@> wrote:

Mike

Those MP hoppers could have originated in Texas, and could be
filled with coke made from petroleum. I have a photo showing
three MP, one B&O, and one N&W hopper loaded with petroleum coke
at a Texas refinery.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Jim Hayes
 

Plus the fact that all the resin tank car kits are tricky to assemble.

Jim


On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Aley, Jeff A <Jeff.A.Aley@intel.com> wrote:



All,

It is messages like this one that prompted me to ask the question about RTR
resin. People want an X-3 (and other cars) IN PLASTIC. Sunshine already
makes a resin kit for the X-3. So why do folks want it in RTR plastic? Is it
because they want the material to be plastic, in particular? I guess the
answer is "no" - personally, I don't care if the car is made out of bamboo,
so long as it is nicely executed.
So that leaves a few possible reasons: availability (not a problem w/ other
resin mfrs), pre-painting / lettering, or the fact that the plastic car will
be RTR.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
ealabhan0
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 9:56 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

I suggest that the UTLX X-3 tank car would fit perfectly into ExactRail's
Signature Series, next to their MILW ribsides.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: MP hoppers in California (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Mike;

I saw PRR hoppers in SoCal when I (first visited then) lived there, and SP
and ATSF hoppers in the mountains of Pennsylvania. The idea that hoppers
tended to stay close to home is valid, but it is also valid that they got
around!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike
brock
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 12:44 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MP hoppers in California



Richard Hendrickson writes:

All of this having been well
documented, I know of no Santa Fe gurus who have pulled out even a
single hair over it. And by the way (get ready for a cheap shot), this
particular Santa Fe guru still has a full head of hair, unlike our
esteemed list administrator.
I would speculate that your barber might reduce his fee after you have run
Prototype Rails AND the STMFC for ten yrs.<G> Actually, I appreciate the fact
that my haircuts are rather quicker than some. Gives me more time to work on
Prototype Rails. Only 8 more months. Geeez.

The MP hopper story...and the source of its coal would not be complete
without mentioning the photo on the inside cover of the UPHS The Streamliner,
Vol 18, #4. It shows a train of 40 or so hopper cars near Lyndyll, UT,[ 118
miles south of SLC ] in 1952 which contains at least 2 MP
3 bay hoppers [ and probably 2 more ]. Utah coal? Possibly. Of additional
interest are the P&LE and NYC gons at the first of the train...loaded with
something that looks like...coal. To complicate the issue is the eastbound UP
train at Wahsatch, UT [ 65 miles east of Ogden on the Ogden/Cheyenne mainline
]. In its consist are a 50 ton and 70 ton MP hopper...plus 2 Rock Island
gons...apparently MTY. Add to that the MP hoppers at Laramie.

Mike Brock





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Aley, Jeff A
 

All,

It is messages like this one that prompted me to ask the question about RTR resin. People want an X-3 (and other cars) IN PLASTIC. Sunshine already makes a resin kit for the X-3. So why do folks want it in RTR plastic? Is it because they want the material to be plastic, in particular? I guess the answer is "no" - personally, I don't care if the car is made out of bamboo, so long as it is nicely executed.
So that leaves a few possible reasons: availability (not a problem w/ other resin mfrs), pre-painting / lettering, or the fact that the plastic car will be RTR.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ealabhan0
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 9:56 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

I suggest that the UTLX X-3 tank car would fit perfectly into ExactRail's Signature Series, next to their MILW ribsides.


Re: Necessary Freight cars

Jack Burgess
 

Bruce wrote:
<No need to come to a "consensus". Jerry Britton sends out a poll to
<the PRR lists every year asking for the top 3 requests in a variety
<of categories. He simply coalated the responses in each scale and
<forwarded it to as many manufacturers as he could find. It is
<remarkable over the years how many of the top cars and locomotives
<have ended up being produced! Was if cause and effect or simply a
<correlation? We may never know ;^)

Finescale Models magazine does the same thing each year, collecting requests
for new kits and it seems the manufacturer's listen. Of course, there are
more model builders than model railroaders.

But to make our requests more attractive, it might be helpful to provide a
background summary on those cars which receive the most votes (how many
prototypes were built, how many railroads ran them) and sources of prototype
information for them...

Jack Burgess
Newark, CA


Re: RTR Resin

Tim O'Connor
 

Gene Green wrote

>> ... let us take up the matter of freight car trucks. Who among us
>> has identified a freight car truck as 'wrong' just because the journal
>> box lids do not match the prototype? I suspect no one has.

Guilty. :-[

>> maybe the bolster

Yep. Guilty.

>> perhaps the brake beams

Yes, well, when it comes to Wabcopacs (truck mounted brakes)

>> When will we judge a models accuracy based on the correct retaining valve?

When someone makes a correct retaining valve?

Tim O'Connor


Re: Necessary Freight cars

Bruce Smith
 

On Apr 13, 2011, at 3:13 PM, Paul Catapano wrote:

Is it possible to (a) reach a consensus, and (b) choose say five
cars and (c) campaign heavily with the model manufacturers for
their production?

Then each year update the list bumping those that have been
produced and replacing them with cars drawn from the next five?

Didn't the SPH&TS recently ask for money up front for the
production of a recent flat car and guarantee the donor some cars
upon release? (Or something like that).

What is your favorite car worth to you?

Paul Catapano
Paul,

No need to come to a "consensus". Jerry Britton sentout a pole to
the PRR lists every year asking for the top 3 requests in a variety
of categories. He simply coalated the responses in each scale and
forwarded it to as many manufacturers as he could find. It is
remarkable over the years how many of the top cars and locomotives
have ended up being produced! Was if cause and effect or simply a
correlation? We may never know ;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
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| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
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Necessary Freight cars

Paul Catapano
 

Is it possible to (a) reach a consensus,  and (b) choose say five cars and (c) campaign heavily with the model manufacturers for their production?
 
Then each year update the list bumping those that have been produced and replacing them with cars drawn from the next five?
 
Didn't the SPH&TS recently ask for money up front for the production of a recent flat car and guarantee the donor some cars upon release? (Or something like that).
 
What is your favorite car worth to you?

Paul Catapano

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Missing Significant Frt Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

I think the GATC 6-dome tanks would be good sellers -- they
went all over the country, and wore a number of paint schemes.
I'd definitely be interested in several. The brass PSC models
usually fetch over $200 on Ebay. Of course, whoever makes them
in plastic would be free to paint them PRR, UP, ATSF, etc. :-)

Tim O'Connor

I would like a good (accurate) 2 ,3, or 6 dome tank
(injected). While I realize they were rare I think they
would sell. The manufacture (or importer) could paint
them with granny goose for all I care as long as a
couple of correct ones were done. As most will say
they are too rare for a prototype RR that fact alone
would probably make them good sellers. How many
will sell, who knows.

Jon Miller


(No subject)

John S. Frantz
 

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