Date   

Re: Long shot...

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard

One can be wrong -- because the answer is out there somewhere. There's
a 1959 color yard photo in Gene Green's Morning Sun M&StL In Color
(page 9) that shows 4 M&StL TOFC flats -- three are BCR, one is black.
I also have 1960's color photos of BCR M&StL flats, but since that is
past the STMFC era I didn't mention them before. Proto 2000's M&StL
AAR flat car is BCR, and I have a b&w photos of 23707 and 15113 that
both show small black lube stencil patches -- I think both cars are
BCR. The photos are from late 1940's to late 1950's. Gene's 1931 paint
instruction are definitive if you're modeling 1930's... I'm not sure
what time period Clark is modeling.

Tim O'Connor

Clark,

If no one knows the answer, you can't be wrong whatever you do. :)

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


Re: Necessary Freight cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

A.T. Kott wrote:
The last project I did drawings for involved brass models made in China. I provided scale drawings (not RR general arrangement drawings that are seldom to scale) with a few measurements on them . . .
I can't speak for many railroads' practice, but the SP, UP and PFE general arrangement drawings I have seen are most certainly scale drawings, as one can verify by checking details, and are quite carefully done. The good Mr. Vlk referred to them as "cartoons," and perhaps on some railroads that was true, but certainly not for the examples cited.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Long shot... M&StL 23001-series flat cars

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Clark & those few others who might be interested,

M&StL Specification No. 57, dated March 23, 1931 says in part,

"PAINTING
"All joints where metal laps on metal to be painted with one (1) coat of cement before assembling. After assembling, entire underframe to be given one (1) coat of car cement. Outside of end sills and side sills to be given two (2) coats of good quality black paint. Top of floor stringers to be given one (1) coat of paint before floor boards are applied."

"STENCILING
"To be in accordance with requirements of Railroad Co."

Gene Green


Kadee code 88 wheelsets

Jim King
 

I include Kadee code 88 wheelsets and #153 whisker couplers in my HO kits.
Great quality and appearance, as expected.



Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

Ph. (828) 777-5619

<www.smokymountainmodelworks.com>


Re: Necessary Freight cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

proto48er
 

Andy -

The last project I did drawings for involved brass models made in China. I provided scale drawings (not RR general arrangement drawings that are seldom to scale) with a few measurements on them, and was not sure just exactly what system of measurement the builder would use. Thought he could just measure off the drawing - done 1-1/2 final size and reduced to "O" scale with a stat camera.

To my surprise, the builder wanted a measurement for every little part! I then dimensioned the diddly out of a set of drawings and sent them to the builder by way of the importer. To my surprise, in less than a month, a woman in her 20's in China created excellent 3-D CAD drawings for the car with only a very few minor corrections - on the first try! (At this point, I was really worried about our future as an economy!)

One feature of the CAD drawings was that they were multi-colored. The parts in a single color represented a step in the final assembly of the components of the model. The builder had actually done some good "engineering" of the stepwise construction of the models when the drawings were prepared.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., "Andy Harman" <gsgondola@...> wrote:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:03:14 -0500, cvlk wrote
3D CAD has changed the approach to design of a model. It used to be that
you'd start with overall drawings and work down to the details of the
components (roof, body, trucks, details, etc..). Now it is pretty much the
reverse..... you design details to assemble into a whole.
It would be fascinating to see the process of how a 3D CAD drawing of the prototype is
turned into the actual tooling specs for the model. I've been reviewing some 3D
drawings for a forthcoming product, and I'm really just seeing a forest view, nothing
about how the individual parts will be defined, how they will all fit together, etc. I
suppose in a lot of cases that part is entirely done by engineers in China. But I'm
having a lot of trouble communicating the changes just in what I'm seeing - and I'm
working through a 3rd (or 4th?) party so I'm not even sure where the lines are breaking
down, or how to word my suggestions and corrections so that the guy on the final
receiving end knows what I'm talking about, and I don't know if that person speaks
English, Japanese, German, or Chinese. I'm kind of reduced to sending back a clip of
the drawing and a prototype photo of the same view and saying sheesh, look a it, yer not
even in the ball park! I'm sure whatever mistakes end up in the finished product will
be blamed on me, but I'm so far removed from the process that I'm not sure I'm helping
much. The last round, about 3 of the 20 things had been corrected, none of them
adequately, the other 17 were ignored, and two new errors injected. All of this just to
get to a 3D representation of the whole, which then will have to be picked apart into
assemblies and parts and tooled from there. If the person doing this even took vague
interpolated measurements from the prototype photos I supplied, he would have nailed it
almost completely the first time around, but at this stage, I have to wonder just what
it is they're looking at.

Andy


Re: Long shot...

Richard Townsend
 

Clark,

If no one knows the answer, you can't be wrong whatever you do. :)


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


Re: Long shot...

Joseph
 

Clark,
1.I think Gene told me black. 2.Somewhere I have a photo that shows this series in black. 3. I'm seeing black in the wayback machine.
Joe Binish

----- Original Message -----
From: <cepropst@q.com>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:52 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Long shot...


I just finish with a (to be) M&StL 50' flat car. Made by splicing two Red Caboose 42 fters and adding a new deck. Not perfect, but close.

Much to my dismay, I don't know which color to paint it, BCR or black? Cars are in the 230001-23199 odd numbers series. I know it's a long shot that anyone would know, but I had to ask.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I want to paint it tomorrow....
Clark Propst





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: TC boxcar nomenclature correction

James F. Brewer <jfbrewer@...>
 

Jim,



Any idea when these will ship?



Jim Brewer

----- Original Message -----
From: "SMMW" <jimking3@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:52:28 PM
Subject: [STMFC] TC boxcar nomenclature correction

 




It was pointed out to me yesterday that terminology I used (as provided to
me during the design phase) on the 1941-built Tennessee Central boxcar was
incorrect. The design IS correct and, therefore, so is the model, so those
of you who purchased the kit have nothing to worry about.

The comments made to me indicated that the web image, a low rez image
required for fast loading for folks still using dial-up connections, seemed
to show roof ribs. Weathering with oils along the rivet rows, photo angle,
combined with the low resolution image, caused the visual problem. The
Pullman riveted roof does, indeed, have ONLY rows of rivets, no ribs. My
web page description has been corrected to reflect proper Pullman
terminology for the roof and ends.

Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

Ph. (828) 777-5619

<www.smokymountainmodelworks.com>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Kadee Trucks

Mike Fleming
 

I use Kadee wheelsets exclusively and about 90% on the stock trucks. I use a truck tuner to clean out and shape the pocket on the trucks and I have found that the ride quality improves and I have never had an axle or truck frame failure.
The caveat is that if I am using the truck tuner on a bunch of cars at once it really aggrivates the arthritis in my thumb.

Mike Fleming
Superintendent, Bluff City Div. SER, NMRA
President Emeritus, Memphis Society of Model Railroaders
Vice President, Memphis Railroad and Trolley Museum Model Railroad Club, a 100% NMRA Member Club

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Kadee Trucks
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 17:27:01 -0400


Bob, they were plastic.

One thing you can do with plastic-plastic contact is put
graphite in the bearing. This is very easy with Neo-Lube which
is a paintable graphite. With metal-metal contact I sometimes
use moly-grease or a teflon-grease and this seems to mitigate
the squeaking that develops. In other cases I use Tichy nylon
bearings, especially for brass truck sideframes designed for
stubby (shouldered?) journals.

Tim O'

Tim O'Connor wrote: "At a train club I belonged to, MANY cars with
Kadee wheels (mostly in non-Kadee sideframes) wore down the ends of the
axles to a round nub! In a high-use context, metal axles last longer...
But yeah, on a private low-mileage layout, it's probably not an issue."

======================================

Tim,

Were non-Kadee truck frames metal or plastic? Some of the problem of
wear may relate to what JP Barger noted in his presentations on truck
frames and wheel-sets that one wants metal axles in plastic truck frames
or the opposite. Kadee's older trucks always had plastic axles in metal
truck frames. It will be interesting to see how the new
plastic-on-plastic combination will perform long-term.

Bob Witt


Re: Necessary Freight cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

armprem2 <armprem2@...>
 

F&C has a nine panel CNJ/ B&O hopper.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden SAW
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 4:41 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Necessary Freight cars (UNCLASSIFIED)



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

> > The alternate standard offset - is this the version NKP had?
>
> Yes. One could oversimplify and call it the AMC version.

>>I could certainly get into that. Maybe not quite in the same quantity as
the H10 but, I could use quite a few.

Actually, anyone modeling a northeastern or eastern Midwest road should have
a bunch of them. Fron a variety of local roads. Also, those NP and L&N guys
have been moaning about this for decades. The C&O had oodles, but with a
wide variety of ends.

The NKP version is an obvious choice for a one-piece resin kit, since it can
be cast upside down with most of the structurals as part of that casting.
Like the F&C H25. That version would also be good for P&WV and maybe others.

The Erie and P&S cars are shorter overall, like 10'10" IH versus 10'4"?? or
so, so some modelers would not accept that kind of compromise, but there are
those that would not care. I would hack off the top chord and shorten it up,
if I was that hot for an Erie car.

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE




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Re: Long shot...

Tim O'Connor
 

Clark

I think 23021 was painted BCR -- a black & white photo shows a lube stencil
patch, and it is much darker than the rest of the car body -- probably a black
patch on a BCR body. The patch is from the RDG CO. :-)

Tim O'

At 4/14/2011 04:52 PM Thursday, you wrote:
I just finish with a (to be) M&StL 50' flat car. Made by splicing two Red Caboose 42 fters and adding a new deck. Not perfect, but close.

Much to my dismay, I don't know which color to paint it, BCR or black? Cars are in the 230001-23199 odd numbers series. I know it's a long shot that anyone would know, but I had to ask.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I want to paint it tomorrow....
Clark Propst


Re: Kadee Trucks

Andy Harman
 

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 17:27:01 -0400, Tim O'Connor wrote
is a paintable graphite. With metal-metal contact I sometimes
use moly-grease or a teflon-grease and this seems to mitigate
the squeaking that develops.
Whenever I have metal to metal, I use Labelle 102 which is called "gear oil". It's
considerably thicker than 107 or 108. Typically a car lubed with 108 starts squeaking
again in 15 minutes (particularly Walthers passenger cars). The ones I lubed with 102, I
haven't had to re-lube after several years of both running and sitting.

Andy


Re: Kadee Trucks

Tim O'Connor
 

Bob, they were plastic.

One thing you can do with plastic-plastic contact is put
graphite in the bearing. This is very easy with Neo-Lube which
is a paintable graphite. With metal-metal contact I sometimes
use moly-grease or a teflon-grease and this seems to mitigate
the squeaking that develops. In other cases I use Tichy nylon
bearings, especially for brass truck sideframes designed for
stubby (shouldered?) journals.

Tim O'

Tim O'Connor wrote: "At a train club I belonged to, MANY cars with
Kadee wheels (mostly in non-Kadee sideframes) wore down the ends of the
axles to a round nub! In a high-use context, metal axles last longer...
But yeah, on a private low-mileage layout, it's probably not an issue."

======================================

Tim,

Were non-Kadee truck frames metal or plastic? Some of the problem of
wear may relate to what JP Barger noted in his presentations on truck
frames and wheel-sets that one wants metal axles in plastic truck frames
or the opposite. Kadee's older trucks always had plastic axles in metal
truck frames. It will be interesting to see how the new
plastic-on-plastic combination will perform long-term.

Bob Witt


Re: TC boxcar nomenclature correction

Tim O'Connor
 

Isn't that "step" just where the tab is bent into an "L" shape,
i.e. aren't we looking at the bottom of the "L" edge-on? If so,
maybe the "stepless" tabs were trimmed differently, so when they
were folded (bent into an L) the taper appears to be continuous.

Tim O'Connor

At 4/14/2011 04:40 PM Thursday, you wrote:
Dave Sieber wrote:
Then again, I might mention that you (like most everyone) missed
a minor identifying characteristic of Pullman-Standard's boxcars of
the '40s, seen on both their AAR standard boxcars and the very
earliest PS-1s: stepped bolster tabs. . . on Pullman-Standard
boxcars built from the very late '30s through about 1949 or so (but
not cars built by ACF, Magor, or anyone else).
Not true, Dave. You can see it on Pressed Steel Car and
Bethlehem cars built before WW II.

Tony Thompson


Re: Kadee Trucks

Andy Harman
 

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 20:49:33 -0000, rwitt_2000 wrote
Tim O'Connor wrote: "At a train club I belonged to, MANY cars with
Kadee wheels (mostly in non-Kadee sideframes) wore down the ends of the
axles to a round nub!
I put Kadee wheelsets into various one-piece delrin trucks over the years. Athearn,
MDC, Walthers, Train Miniature etc. I don't know what the wear profile was but the
rolling quality was definitely inferior.

Funny, that AHM 6-dome car we were talking about... I looked at it last night and it
appears to have Kadee wheelsets stuck into ancient Athearn sprung trucks, or the AHM
equivalent - but most AHM cars I remember did not have sprung trucks.

It is interesting how we've come full circle from sprung, to one-piece, to some bad
attempts at non-sprung equalization, to sprung, to one-piece, and now Kadee's
functional, equalized new design. There was a time when a freight car truck was a
freight car truck, and I just tried to find one that would perform and didn't care if it
was the correct truck. Now I go blind looking at all of the un-branded delrin trucks I
have in my junkbox and try to figure out what they are and if I can use them.

Anybody remember a time - late 60s or early 70s - when Athearn was putting their
then-new delrin roller bearing truck in *every* kit, from their most modern to 40' box
cars to ice reefers? I've often wondered if they just ran out of their "Bettendorf"
trucks and didn't feel like making a run, or if the mold was down for repair or what. I
do still pull out Athearn cars from back then... like an SP steam era box car, and there
are those roller bearing trucks.

Andy


Long shot...

Clark Propst
 

I just finish with a (to be) M&StL 50' flat car. Made by splicing two Red Caboose 42 fters and adding a new deck. Not perfect, but close.

Much to my dismay, I don't know which color to paint it, BCR or black? Cars are in the 230001-23199 odd numbers series. I know it's a long shot that anyone would know, but I had to ask.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I want to paint it tomorrow....
Clark Propst


Re: Kadee Trucks

rwitt_2000
 

Tim O'Connor wrote: "At a train club I belonged to, MANY cars with
Kadee wheels (mostly in non-Kadee sideframes) wore down the ends of the
axles to a round nub! In a high-use context, metal axles last longer...
But yeah, on a private low-mileage layout, it's probably not an issue."

======================================

Tim,

Were non-Kadee truck frames metal or plastic? Some of the problem of
wear may relate to what JP Barger noted in his presentations on truck
frames and wheel-sets that one wants metal axles in plastic truck frames
or the opposite. Kadee's older trucks always had plastic axles in metal
truck frames. It will be interesting to see how the new
plastic-on-plastic combination will perform long-term.

Bob Witt


Re: Necessary Freight cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


The alternate standard offset - is this the version NKP had?
Yes. One could oversimplify and call it the AMC version.
I could certainly get into that. Maybe not quite in the same quantity as
the H10 but, I could use quite a few.


Actually, anyone modeling a northeastern or eastern Midwest road should have
a bunch of them. Fron a variety of local roads. Also, those NP and L&N guys
have been moaning about this for decades. The C&O had oodles, but with a
wide variety of ends.

The NKP version is an obvious choice for a one-piece resin kit, since it can
be cast upside down with most of the structurals as part of that casting.
Like the F&C H25. That version would also be good for P&WV and maybe others.

The Erie and P&S cars are shorter overall, like 10'10" IH versus 10'4"?? or
so, so some modelers would not accept that kind of compromise, but there are
those that would not care. I would hack off the top chord and shorten it up,
if I was that hot for an Erie car.

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: TC boxcar nomenclature correction

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave Sieber wrote:
Then again, I might mention that you (like most everyone) missed a minor identifying characteristic of Pullman-Standard's boxcars of the '40s, seen on both their AAR standard boxcars and the very earliest PS-1s: stepped bolster tabs. . . on Pullman-Standard boxcars built from the very late '30s through about 1949 or so (but not cars built by ACF, Magor, or anyone else).
Not true, Dave. You can see it on Pressed Steel Car and Bethlehem cars built before WW II.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: TC boxcar nomenclature correction

rwitt_2000
 

Dave Sieber wrote: "Jim, Then again, I might mention that you (like
most everyone) missed a minor identifying characteristic of
Pullman-Standard's boxcars of the '40s, seen on both their AAR standard
boxcars and the very earliest PS-1s: stepped bolster tabs. Take a real
close look at the prototype photos and you'll see an
inch/inch-and-a-half squared-off section at both the bottom and the top
of each bolster tab. Ted Culotta noted this in his Essential Freight
Cars article on the early PS-1s; once you first see it, you start
noticing it on Pullman-Standard boxcars built from the very late '30s
through about 1949 or so (but not cars built by ACF, Magor, or anyone
else). It's one of those tiny oddities that make prototype modeling fun
or maddening, or both in various proportions at different times."

===================================

I am looking at photos, mostly from Bob's, of the B&O versions of these
P-S boxcars ca. 1941, classes M-55a/M-55B, built with Duryea
underframes and they don't have the "stepped bolster tabs". Possibly the
spotting feature only applies to boxcars with AAR center sills and
underframe design. One can always rely on the B&O to have something
different.

Regards,

Bob Witt

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