Date   

Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Armand Premo
 

Gee,I quess I will have to go back and reread my question.VBG,Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Smith
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949



> Armand Premo wrote:
>> This is a discussion that will be endless.First of all the
>> area being modeled is the most important factor in determining car
>> mix.

Armand,

Wait a minute, you started this! Now, I know you did not really
intend to start the car distribution debate over as that was not the
question that you asked, but it is ironic that your original question
is based on logical underpinnings of a hypothesis you choose to dispute.

You asked about the top freight car fleets in the US and under-
represented roads and models. That would be irrelevant if cars were
not evenly distributed as the relevant question would then be the top
MODELED railroads and whether they were underserved by models.

Your original question is really only relevant if freight cars are
randomly distributed, as then, regardless of popularity of modeling a
given road, there should be some reflection of the national pool in
the modeled pool. This, of course, ignores for now the important
point that modeled home roads DO alter the national model freight car
pool.

So, although you think you do not believe in the N-G model, you
really do, and we thank you for your support ;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ \
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0








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C&O Hoppers was Underrepresented roads and car types

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

Now, while the fires of boxcar distribution get fanned again, I think
that the vast majority of us agree that hoppers had a much more local
distribution. I hope we also agree that depth of variation depends
significantly on location. For example, on a C&O branch serving coal
mines, the hopper fleet is likely to be nearly 100% C&O, but that
might be lower on PRR branch. On the PRR main, with both home road
coal and neighbor road coal, the mix was more diverse still, but with
perhaps 75% PRR cars. One thing we've taken as a matter of faith
though (along with photographic evidence) is that among the foreign
cars on the PRR, C&O hoppers were very very rare. This has been held
as an example of how the C&O moved coal from the mines to tidewater
on their own rails.

Imagine my surprise this past weekend at the PRRT&HS meeting in
Columbus Ohio to see multiple photos of STRINGS of C&O hoppers on the
PRR (PY&A), headed for north for the port of Ashtabula (and back
towards home rails empty)! In the greater scheme, this probably
represents a minority traffic for the C&O, but it also seems clear
that C&O coal did go other places than C&O served ports... veerrrrry
interesting....

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Bruce Smith
 

Armand Premo wrote:
This is a discussion that will be endless.First of all the
area being modeled is the most important factor in determining car
mix.
Armand,

Wait a minute, you started this! Now, I know you did not really
intend to start the car distribution debate over as that was not the
question that you asked, but it is ironic that your original question
is based on logical underpinnings of a hypothesis you choose to dispute.

You asked about the top freight car fleets in the US and under-
represented roads and models. That would be irrelevant if cars were
not evenly distributed as the relevant question would then be the top
MODELED railroads and whether they were underserved by models.

Your original question is really only relevant if freight cars are
randomly distributed, as then, regardless of popularity of modeling a
given road, there should be some reflection of the national pool in
the modeled pool. This, of course, ignores for now the important
point that modeled home roads DO alter the national model freight car
pool.

So, although you think you do not believe in the N-G model, you
really do, and we thank you for your support ;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: 5th Ave car shops DT&I decals

bill_d_goat
 

, the decals are remaining stock on hand from the shake n take projects,

so quantities are perhaps limited.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


So, how do we know what these decals look like, not having attended the shake n take?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Armand Premo
 

Tony,Then does that mean I should disregard all the other evidence that I have ,or have seen? :- ) Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949



Armand Premo wrote:
> This is a discussion that will be endless.First of all the
> area being modeled is the most important factor in determining car
> mix.The ORER has divided the country into various regions.One is
> most likely to see cars from within that geographical region or a
> directly neighboring region regardless of fleet size.I.E.you are
> more likely to see SP cars in the west than in the east and more
> Pennsy cars in the east than in the west.Supporting documentation
> such as wheel reports,conductors books help in determining what ran
> where.Show me the documentation and I might agree.

Talk about "doing it all again." Armand still does not believe
the evidence provided by Gilbert and Nelson. That's okay, Armand,
there are still people who deny global warming.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history






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NYC Yahoo groups Re: NYCSHS New e-zine NYCentral Modeler

Brian <cornbeltroute@...>
 

Paul,

Thanks for the link. My membership is now pending (I'm always looking for Flexi-van info to add to the collection). None of the NYC forums appear very active. Noel and group's effort might change that . . . we hope.

-Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa


There is also NYC-Modeler.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYC-Modeler/
Freight cars are sometimes discussed on this group. -Paul <


Re: Consumer-grade 3D printers hit the mainstream

Jack Burgess
 

<Jack,
<
<For those of us with a keen interest in the subject but are unable to
<attend the convention, is there a way we can plug into the information
<presented, maybe in summary form? Is there a Web site that might present
<such information post-convention? Just hoping. . . .
<
<Thanks much,
<
<Brian Chapman
<Evansdale, Iowa

I'll see if Rene would be willing to share his clinic somehow...

Jack


Re: Consumer-grade 3D printers hit the mainstream

Brian <cornbeltroute@...>
 

There will be two clinics on rapid prototyping at the X2011 West NMRA Convention in July. . . . -Jack Burgess <
Jack,

For those of us with a keen interest in the subject but are unable to attend the convention, is there a way we can plug into the information presented, maybe in summary form? Is there a Web site that might present such information post-convention? Just hoping. . . .

Thanks much,

Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa


Re: Consumer-grade 3D printers hit the mainstream

Jack Burgess
 

There will be two clinics on rapid prototyping at the X2011 West NMRA
Convention in July (see my previous post on the RPM meet). One will be
presented by Rene Gourley of Proto87 fame and he will talk about getting a
first model printed, the process for developing the design and obtaining the
model, and the finishing that was required.

The second will be by Bill Brisko of Pacific Locomotive Works
(www.pacificlocomotive.com) who does this commercially and has his own
printer.

Jack Burgess
Newark, CA


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote:
This is a discussion that will be endless.First of all the area being modeled is the most important factor in determining car mix.The ORER has divided the country into various regions.One is most likely to see cars from within that geographical region or a directly neighboring region regardless of fleet size.I.E.you are more likely to see SP cars in the west than in the east and more Pennsy cars in the east than in the west.Supporting documentation such as wheel reports,conductors books help in determining what ran where.Show me the documentation and I might agree.
Talk about "doing it all again." Armand still does not believe the evidence provided by Gilbert and Nelson. That's okay, Armand, there are still people who deny global warming.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


RPM meet at NMRA National Convention in July 2011...

Jack Burgess
 

A full Railroad Prototype Modelers meet will be held in conjunction with the
2011 NMRA National Convention to be held in Sacramento, CA in July 2011. The
activities will include clinics specifically aimed at prototype modelers and
model displays of locomotives, equipment, and structure models. Bring your
prototype models so all can enjoy and share them! There are no contests or
awards. Instead, the goal is to share information, present your best
modeling techniques, and meet your fellow area modelers. In addition to
model displays, presentations by nationally-recognized modelers and
historians are scheduled.

Dates and times for the RPM portion of the Convention are Wednesday, July 6,
and Thursday, July 7, from 12:00 noon until 8:00 pm although the NMRA
Convention lasts all week from July 3-9, 2011. The RPM meet will be held in
the Sacramento Convention Center Complex, 1400 J Street in Sacramento.

More information on the RPM meet and the week-long convention can be found
on the Convention website at X2011west.org <http://www.x2011west.org/>

Jack Burgess
Publicity Chairman
X2011 West
NMRA Convention
Sacramento - July 3-9, 2011


Re: Underrepresented roads and car types

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave North wrote:
Tony,
You make a valid point.
How did you account for the SFRD cars of the Santa Fe? Are they accounted for in the ATSF numbers or in a separate listing?
In my chart SFRD is separate, as is PFE from its parents

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike, essentially what I meant to say (but only implied) is that if
you are modeling a coal road like the C&O in an area full of coal mines,
then the vast majority of the coal cars seen will be C&O. But if you model
C&O in eastern VA or in Ohio, there may be many more foreign hoppers.

The point was that hopper/gondola population mixtures are far more
dependent on local factors than are box car/reefer mixtures, for most
mainline modeling. I think that is sufficiently vague and general. :-)

Suppose one sits down and decides that 50% of the fleet needs to be
box cars. Then one says that 20% of that number needs to be home road
and 10% is direct connections.

So now apply the population percentages to the 35% of your total freight
car fleet (.70 x .50) that will be "random" box cars. Note the randomness
does NOT exclude home road or direct connections. Why? Simple. If your
home road owned 90% of all the box cars that existed, then you should
expect more than 90% of all the box cars on your layout to be home road.

Tim O'

---------------------------------------

I'll grant you that large numbers of eastern RR hoppers might not have
wandered around "randomly" even in the east but they did wander and that's
really all that matters when the purpose of the evaluation is to determine
what cars were present in specific areas. I'll add that, even in the case of
C&O, if the number of WM hoppers turns out to be one car per 300 C&O
hoppers, that will likely match the number of Texas and Pacific box cars on
Sherman Hill. More importantly, such hopper car projections are necessary to
determine the number of C&O hoppers on the Rutland [ wherever that
is ]...rather than the other way.

Mike Brock


Re: US Navy freight cars.

Marty McGuirk
 

We still use some of those  cars - they were refurbished a few years ago. They are used to move conventional ordnance  . . .



see http://www.public.navy.mil/navsafecen/Documents/SuccessStories2/107_Asbst_RR_Restor.pdf



The Navy Railway Operating Handbook https://portal.navfac.navy.mil/portal/page/portal/docs/doc_store_pub/navy%20railway%20operations%20handbook  offers a good basic introduction to the various types and cargos the Navy/Marine Corps ship by rail. Love the cover image - which hasn't changed in well over 6 decades.



There were of course, specialized cars that look like flatcars with large cylinders semi-permanently mounted in place, used to transport spent fuel rods. The current version of these cars operate with DODX markings and are designated as M140 - a little late for the era of this list, but there was an earlier version that ran in the (late) steam era.



Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: mail@kadee.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:41:56 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: US Navy freight cars.

 




Don't forget the Navy had three lots of 40 foot PS-1 box cars built in 1952, 1953 and 1955.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

From: Allen Cain
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 9:08 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: US Navy freight cars.

Yes, the Navy did have box cars and at least one Helium car (for blimps I
think?). Will send to you direct in a separate email.

You find the car numbers and other info in any ORER. I will send a scan of
the October 1954 Navy info.

Allen Cain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: 5th Ave car shops DT&I decals

Douglas Harding
 

Bill you need to do mail order with 5th Ave Car Shops. Jim does not do email
or a website. And I don't believe there is work phone. And as others pointed
out, the decals are remaining stock on hand from the shake n take projects,
so quantities are perhaps limited.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:


Are we doing all of this AGAIN?

Well...looks like it. Heck, who knows we might get it "right" this time.

The "population tables" are most useful for figuring out the proper
mix of box cars and reefers on class 1 railroad mainlines, excepting
whatever "home road" is being modeled.
True enough...particularly if those car types are all that is considered. My point is, however, that other car types need to be included in specific locations. Not to determine the number of box cars and reefers but the other various types. IOW, for those modeling RR's in the midwest we might need to develop the projected number of N&W hoppers on the NYC and Pennsy lines north of Columbus, OH. OTOH, such numbers would not apply to the Pennsy or NYC into St.Louis. Similarly, anyone modeling the B&O between Pittsburgh and Chicago would need to study populations of hopper cars in that area.

Mike, I can't agree with your statement. If I model the C&O in West
Virginia, I may have a few N&W or PRR or B&O hoppers, but not many at
all, and vastly outnumbered by C&O hoppers.
I haven't studied N&W hoppers...or those of other RRs...on the C&O. I can tell you that solid trains of N&W hoppers operated on the NYC and Pennsy north of Columbus, OH. Also, unexpectedly, both L&N and Clinchfield hoppers were found in N&W trains operating east from Roanoke.

Unlike the box cars which
roamed freely and more or less "randomly" (per Gilbert), hoppers (in
general) moved less freely.
I'll grant you that large numbers of eastern RR hoppers might not have wandered around "randomly" even in the east but they did wander and that's really all that matters when the purpose of the evaluation is to determine what cars were present in specific areas. I'll add that, even in the case of C&O, if the number of WM hoppers turns out to be one car per 300 C&O hoppers, that will likely match the number of Texas and Pacific box cars on Sherman Hill. More importantly, such hopper car projections are necessary to determine the number of C&O hoppers on the Rutland [ wherever that is ]...rather than the other way.

Mike Brock


Re: Underrepresented roads and car types

Jim Betz
 

Tony,

At the risk of pointing out the obvious that everyone
already understands ... and taking an admittedly cheap
shot at your focus on all things PFE ... *W*

UNLESS you are modeling one of "those other - and often
forgotten(?) - RRs" of the West Coast that had their 'own'
reefer fleet and so need to include reporting marks such
as WFEX rather than PFE ... *VBG*

I agree that you can get into a can of worms about how
you apportion the reefer fleets if you try to include them
in their parent RRs. It's a lot easier to just use them
as a 'separate RR' in terms of any apportionment.

All,

Personally I feel that many of us are taking this search
for the proper mix of freight cars way too far. To my way
of thinking the big picture trends and generalities of what
the mix was (should be) are the important things to focus
on. I.e. that if you have a layout that is too heavily
loaded with home road cars it "looks wrong".
I will even go so far as to say that if you want to
really take it to this kind of distribution level I don't
think you can go wrong if you just "go counting" in the
pics you have available for the RR(s) you model for the
era you are modeling. There are lots of pics out there
that are of entire trains and yards that will give you a
very good ... and easily accessible ... feeling for the
mix of what cars were/were not represented on "your" RR.
Just use those numbers and you will have a fleet that is
highly representative and will look and feel "right".

If you really love the research into the mix of freight
cars - then by all means go for it ... and I ... and the
rest of us will benefit from it ===> and praise you for it.

But if you are trying to decide if you should have 1 or 2
DT&I gons on your layout because you want to represent the
"true" mix of cars ... maybe you have forgotten why you
started down that road and it would be better if you got
back to doing more modeling and less "research" ???
- Jim

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: Underrepresented roads and car types
Posted by: "Anthony Thompson" thompson@signaturepress.com sigpress
Date: Mon May 16, 2011 9:59 pm ((PDT))
If we're looking for bragging rights vs. other railroads, hey,
let's add (some fraction of) the PFE cars to each railroad. But as I
understood the prior topic, we were looking at railroad car fleets,
especially box cars. The PFE cars are the reefer fleet of SP and UP,
and as such seem to me to be a little separate.
And lest this seem like an arcane topic of interest only to UP
and SP modelers, let me observe that you have a comparable issue with
the IGN relative to MoPac, the PM relative to C&O, and even the T&NO
relative to SP. Separate reporting marks, but commonality of car types
and car usage--and all these subsidiary road car fleets were operated
in tandem with the parent road. Whether you add them to the parent
road fleet size depends on what you're trying to show.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: US Navy freight cars.

SamClarke
 

Don't forget the Navy had three lots of 40 foot PS-1 box cars built in 1952, 1953 and 1955.


Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products


From: Allen Cain
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 9:08 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: US Navy freight cars.



Yes, the Navy did have box cars and at least one Helium car (for blimps I
think?). Will send to you direct in a separate email.

You find the car numbers and other info in any ORER. I will send a scan of
the October 1954 Navy info.

Allen Cain


Re: Rivets

mforsyth127
 

Jack Burgess wrote:

I think you will get what you pay for. I've seen a closeup of the MM rivets and they in no way compare to the Archer rivets. They might look okay initially but you might very well be disappointed after painting. If you feel they will be okay, go ahead and buy a sheet but I'd suggest applying them to a piece of styrene and then painting them...it would be frustrating to use them, paint the model, and then find out that they lack relief.


Group,

Jack is TOTALLY spot-on here.

There has been some recent discussion about the new MicroMark rivets, and their very reasonable pricing.

I do a lot of scratch and custom building for myself and others, and thought I'd lend my 2cents, based on personal observations.

What MM is putting out looks great on the sheet to the naked eye, but if you look more closely, you might just be dismayed. After application to the model and once painted (as Jack mentioned), the issues with the product will be come obvious.

The black areas on the sheet appear to be crisp and well defined, the result of a simple printing of black ink. However, the thing that gives a product like this depth and dimension is the clear placed on top, and therein lies the problem.

There is no precision application of the clear top-coat on top of the printed image, just random puddles that are clearly visible on their tread plate and can also be seen on the rivets.

I have made a close up scan of the product, that I have posted on my website. I did not include the link in the post, as I would then have to wait for approval. If you wish to see the MM product up close, please contact me directly, mforsyth127 at yahoo dot com, and I will provide you with the URL.

Tougher to see in the scan is that their louvers are only partially covered by random puddles of clear, resulting in just randomly shaped, raised areas.

As I said, looks great on the sheet, and with the black base color printed below, your eyes will be tricked into thinking that the details are sharp, but once a colored top coat is applied, and the black printed base disappears, what you'll then see are just poorly defined random blobs and puddles.

Given what I have observed, I think I'll be sticking with Archer.

Just an FYI...

Thanks,

Matt Forsyth
Modeling the D&H Penn Division
Erie Jefferson Division
in Proto 5-0, late summer of 1950


Re: Top 20 North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949

Armand Premo
 

This is a discussion that will be endless.First of all the area being modeled is the most important factor in determining car mix.The ORER has divided the country into various regions.One is most likely to see cars from within that geographical region or a directly neighboring region regardless of fleet size.I.E.you are more likely to see SP cars in the west than in the east and more Pennsy cars in the east than in the west.Supporting documentation such as wheel reports,conductors books help in determining what ran where.Show me the documentation and I might agree.Armand Premo North American Freight Car Fleets, January 1949
Are we doing all of this AGAIN?

The "population tables" are most useful for figuring out the proper
mix of box cars and reefers on class 1 railroad mainlines, excepting
whatever "home road" is being modeled.

The tables should not include coal hoppers, or gondolas used mostly
for coal, sand, and gravel.

I think the above is consistent with Tim Gilbert's studies of freight
car distribution in the immediate postwar era.

Mike, I can't agree with your statement. If I model the C&O in West
Virginia, I may have a few N&W or PRR or B&O hoppers, but not many at
all, and vastly outnumbered by C&O hoppers. Unlike the box cars which
roamed freely and more or less "randomly" (per Gilbert), hoppers (in
general) moved less freely.

Tim O'Connor

----------------------------------------

>Being one who models west of the Mississippi, I concor with Richard's point.
>However, for those modeling east of that river, hoppers play a significant
>role...even more than that in the Appalachian region running from Alabama
>into New England. If one models just about any RR in that area, one will
>need many N&W, WM, L&N, B&O, C&O, Pennsy, and even NYC hoppers. So, the rule
>for determining frt car population changes when one changes location.
>
>Mike Brock






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