Date   

Re: PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train

Jeffrey White
 

The IC contracted with Central Illinois Public Services to provide their ice plants in Southern Illinois.  In Centralia IL they had a large ice plant and platform about 3 miles South of the passenger depot in the freight yards alongside the South bound main.  They iced reefers going in both directions there.  CIPS also had a small ice plant uptown right behind the passenger depot.


I've circled it on this track chart.  There was a track to the back of the building and I have a 1934 aerial photo of downtown Centralia that shows what appears to be an express reefer on that track.

Here is the complete photo. It's a little clearer.

While they had the capability to cut an express reefer out at the depot and spot it at the ice plant just behind the depot and I have a photo showing an express reefer there, I have been told they iced from a truck on the platform.

Jeff White

Alma, IL

On 4/13/2021 1:36 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io wrote:
Bill,

As Tony Thompson indicated, if in a passenger train and loaded, they would be iced by an ice truck with a lift body while still in the train.  That was to save the time of cutting the express reefer out of the passenger train, taking it to the nearest icing facility (probably miles from the train depot), icing it, and returning it to the passenger train to continue its journey.  So, it would be unlikely for a loaded express reefer to be iced with freight reefers.  OTOH, if the load called for pre-icing, I imagine the express reefer could have been pre-iced at an icing facility in a freight yard with freight reefers. 

Tony (or others) certainly are welcome to chime in with their take on this hunch of mine.

Todd Sullivan


Re: PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train

Tony Thompson
 

Todd Sullivan  wrote:

As Tony Thompson indicated, if in a passenger train and loaded, they would be iced by an ice truck with a lift body while still in the train.  That was to save the time of cutting the express reefer out of the passenger train, taking it to the nearest icing facility (probably miles from the train depot), icing it, and returning it to the passenger train to continue its journey.  So, it would be unlikely for a loaded express reefer to be iced with freight reefers.  OTOH, if the load called for pre-icing, I imagine the express reefer could have been pre-iced at an icing facility in a freight yard with freight reefers. 

Tony (or others) certainly are welcome to chime in with their take on this hunch of mine.

  Well described, Todd. The major exception to your description was in certain early-season shipments when entire trains of express reefers were moved over the railroad. In that case, the string WAS taken to the ice deck. There are photos. But that's a special case, not typical practice.

Tony Thompson




Re: PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train

Todd Sullivan
 

Bill,

As Tony Thompson indicated, if in a passenger train and loaded, they would be iced by an ice truck with a lift body while still in the train.  That was to save the time of cutting the express reefer out of the passenger train, taking it to the nearest icing facility (probably miles from the train depot), icing it, and returning it to the passenger train to continue its journey.  So, it would be unlikely for a loaded express reefer to be iced with freight reefers.  OTOH, if the load called for pre-icing, I imagine the express reefer could have been pre-iced at an icing facility in a freight yard with freight reefers. 

Tony (or others) certainly are welcome to chime in with their take on this hunch of mine.

Todd Sullivan


Re: PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train

bill stanton
 

would they ever have been iced along with ordinary reefers?


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 8:59 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train
 

it depends


On 4/12/2021 7:24 PM, bill stanton wrote:
would express reefers have been intermingled with ordinary reefers in the icing process or kept separate?


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 4:22 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train
 
please elaborate further...i'm simply trying to figure out how to handle them operationally on my railroad (modeling colton and LA circa 1947)

A string of express reefers might be taken over to the ice deck, if it happened to be nearby. But single cars, and cars in trains without time to wait for movement to an ice deck, would be iced right at the depot, using an elevating truck body to get ice up to the ice hatches. Photos of all this in the PFE book.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Photo: PFE 95325 (R-30-9/R-40-9)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: PFE 95325 (R-30-9/R-40-9)

A photo from the University of Texas-Arlington Archives:

https://library.uta.edu/digitalgallery/img/20089211

Click on the photo twice to fully enlarge it.

Photo taken 1942. Spotted at Fort Worth Wholesale Grocery Produce Co. Looks like a lot of activity at this location.

If you are modeling a scene such as this be sure to include the debris and weeds as this certainly adds character to the scene.

I cannot determine whether this is a Class R-30-9 or R-40-9 reefer as it is in a series of cars (91022-98718) that included both classes. This series consisted of cars reconditioned in 1938-1940 from Classes R-30-11 to R-30-14 plus R-40-2. In addition to their wood sheathing these cars retained their all-wood superstructures and original underframes. After the date of this photo, staring in 1949, PFE again began a reconditioning program which included replacing the all-wood superstructures with steel framing.

There is good coverage of these cars in the PFE book:

https://www.signaturepress.com/PFE/pfe2.html

Bob Chaparro

Moderator

Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group

https://groups.io/g/RailroadCitrusIndustryModelingGroup


Re: PRR X29B and X29D

mopacfirst
 

Thanks for providing these answers, even though I didn't ask the question.  I have an F&C X29B and an X29D, along with an X26C, partially built on the bench.  I like to do more than one at a time of similar or identical cars, since it saves me time on research and construction methods, and near the beginning of projects I often do the same thing on several models at once.  

A technique I've been using recently, for light colored parts like the white F&C resin or even the Sunshine gray, is that for one-piece body house cars I will wrap the sides and ends with tape and spray the roof the appropriate color while the car is partially built.  Saves the trouble of trying to get paint under the roofwalk, and if the car has a wooden walk I can paint it separately and get weathered wood colors on it more easily.

Ron Merrick


Re: PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train

Tim O'Connor
 


it depends


On 4/12/2021 7:24 PM, bill stanton wrote:
would express reefers have been intermingled with ordinary reefers in the icing process or kept separate?


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 4:22 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train
 
please elaborate further...i'm simply trying to figure out how to handle them operationally on my railroad (modeling colton and LA circa 1947)

A string of express reefers might be taken over to the ice deck, if it happened to be nearby. But single cars, and cars in trains without time to wait for movement to an ice deck, would be iced right at the depot, using an elevating truck body to get ice up to the ice hatches. Photos of all this in the PFE book.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR X29B and X29D

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

You are welcome, Mike!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Clements via groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 6:23 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR X29B and X29D

 

Thanks everyone. Got everything I need (including an undec Branchline box with 7 doors, Tom Haag's PK decals and a full bottle of Polly Scale Italian Camo Brown). Since Intermountain no longer sells spare parts, I'll have to rebuild the underframe from the Branchline part, so I'll pass on the offer for more info on that build, but thanks anyway, that would have been the way to go.

Mike Clements
Wakefield, MA
nyc65.wordpress.com


Re: "Tyranical" USRA in 1918

George Eichelberger
 

Eric:

I just scanned a memo that mentioned the DL&W was refusing 5,000 (!) USRA freight cars.

This may explain why I see “errors” in USRA car quantities. Some may be “allocated”, other never purchased because they were not wanted. In a third case, cars were swapped before delivery. SR was allocated USRA single sheathed box cars and managed to get them changed to double sheathed cars

The SR controlled the M&O in 1918, USRA allocated a large number of hoppers to them and expected the Southern to finance them. The M&O was always poverty stricken* and Southern had determined that the M&O could simply not afford to acquire them. Apparently, the SR, USRA and the “Federal Manager” for the Southern could not find documentation ordering them in the first place.

Ike

*Southern serviced M&O locos at Birmingham. Even at some minimal cost, the M&O could not pay Southern for water put in their tenders.

PS You need to make a plan to go down to the SRHA archives this summer!


Re: "Tyranical" USRA in 1918

Eric Hansmann
 

Thanks for sharing that correspondence, Ike. I suspect there were similar letters from other lines. I know the Nickel Plate refused their USRA double-sheathed boxcar assignments and the Lehigh Valley refused their USRA hoppers.

 

A key USRA freight car article was published by James E. Lane in the Spring 1973 Railway and Locomotive Historical Society’s “Railroad History, No. 128”. The article features tables of the original equipment allotments, based upon what USRA officials felt the individual lines needed for their routes. There are also tables of the final equipment assignments. I created a resource page with the USRA assignment data on my blog.

http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/usra-freight-car-assignments/

 

I mentioned earlier that the Nickel Plate refused their cars, yet they are on the assignment list. The cars were in service for a couple of years with Nickel Plate lettering until the Wabash picked them up in 1922. Several notes appear on my data tables to indicate ownership change in the years after USRA control was relinquished.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 8:06 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io; RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] "Tyranical" USRA in 1918

 

While scanning multiple WWI era files in the SRHA archives, I’ve learned about an aspect of the United States Railroad Administration (USRA) I was not aware of. In addition to the typical railroad officers, the Southern had a “Federal Manager” that acted as an intermediary between the railroad management and the USRA. The correspondence shows decisions about which USRA “allocations” had been requested, to accept them and then how to pay for them were made by some combination of the three.

 

One answered a long-standing question of mine about why the Southern had so few USRA design box cars. In a full page letter to the USRA, Southern explained that its standard 30-ton, 36ft box cars were more suitable to its freight traffic than the 40ft, 40-T USRA standard cars (designed by the NYC?) that had been allocated. Costs, parts made far from Southern territory and other items were mentioned in the reasons to reject the allocation (apparently not requested by the railroad).

 

Of the multiple examples where cars were allocated but not accepted/wanted by the Southern, the letter sent to Southern President Fairfax Harrison (attached) Nov 14, 1918 resulted in the memo sent by “FH” the next day. Southern managements always resented any attempt at “Government Control” but forcing the railroad to spend money they did not think justifiable was too much.

 

Ike

 

 


Re: "Tyranical" USRA in 1918

Kenneth Montero
 

Wasn't USRA's John Skelton Williams a major figure in the competitor Seaboard Air Line Railroad? If so, that would have added fuel to the fire.
 
Ken Montero

On 04/12/2021 9:05 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
 
 
While scanning multiple WWI era files in the SRHA archives, I’ve learned about an aspect of the United States Railroad Administration (USRA) I was not aware of. In addition to the typical railroad officers, the Southern had a “Federal Manager” that acted as an intermediary between the railroad management and the USRA. The correspondence shows decisions about which USRA “allocations” had been requested, to accept them and then how to pay for them were made by some combination of the three.
 
One answered a long-standing question of mine about why the Southern had so few USRA design box cars. In a full page letter to the USRA, Southern explained that its standard 30-ton, 36ft box cars were more suitable to its freight traffic than the 40ft, 40-T USRA standard cars (designed by the NYC?) that had been allocated. Costs, parts made far from Southern territory and other items were mentioned in the reasons to reject the allocation (apparently not requested by the railroad).
 
Of the multiple examples where cars were allocated but not accepted/wanted by the Southern, the letter sent to Southern President Fairfax Harrison (attached) Nov 14, 1918 resulted in the memo sent by “FH” the next day. Southern managements always resented any attempt at “Government Control” but forcing the railroad to spend money they did not think justifiable was too much.
 
Ike
 
 


"Tyranical" USRA in 1918

George Eichelberger
 

While scanning multiple WWI era files in the SRHA archives, I’ve learned about an aspect of the United States Railroad Administration (USRA) I was not aware of. In addition to the typical railroad officers, the Southern had a “Federal Manager” that acted as an intermediary between the railroad management and the USRA. The correspondence shows decisions about which USRA “allocations” had been requested, to accept them and then how to pay for them were made by some combination of the three.

One answered a long-standing question of mine about why the Southern had so few USRA design box cars. In a full page letter to the USRA, Southern explained that its standard 30-ton, 36ft box cars were more suitable to its freight traffic than the 40ft, 40-T USRA standard cars (designed by the NYC?) that had been allocated. Costs, parts made far from Southern territory and other items were mentioned in the reasons to reject the allocation (apparently not requested by the railroad).

Of the multiple examples where cars were allocated but not accepted/wanted by the Southern, the letter sent to Southern President Fairfax Harrison (attached) Nov 14, 1918 resulted in the memo sent by “FH” the next day. Southern managements always resented any attempt at “Government Control” but forcing the railroad to spend money they did not think justifiable was too much.

Ike



Re: HOn3 D&RGW caboose

Scott H. Haycock
 

Schuyler,
 
Google 'D&RGW short caboose' and there is a picture gallery. Mostly models but some prototype photos. It looks like F&C makes a resin kit of this model; they may have decals.

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent

On 04/12/2021 12:18 PM Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:
 
 

I am going to be painting the attached caboose model for a friend.  I have three questions:

 

  1. Can anyone identify this model?  Original date of manufacture?  Importer? Maker?  The box shown with the caboose is evidently the original box, based on the “packing” being the same or very similar to the packing I’ve seen in Max Gray models I’ve bought in original packaging.  There are no markings on the model or on or in the box, other than the pencil notation on the end of the cover.  It’s a very nice model, very well built and seems to be accurate.

  2. The owner of the model has requested I paint it using P-B-L “Rio Grande Freight Car Color.”  If I am not mistaken, that is an acrylic paint, and I am very much disinclined to use an acrylic paint (N.B.: don’t bother to try to tell me that they are easy to use, just as good, clearly the right color or any of that.  Maybe they are in the right hands, but based on my experiences, my hands are not the right hands.  I stick to lacquers, period.)  So are there recommendations among all the experts on this list for a good color in a lacquer paint?  Preferably Scalecoat?

  3. Decals?

 

TIA

 

Schuyler


Re: HOn3 D&RGW caboose (amended)

Bryian Sones
 

Larrabee,

Sorry I overlooked your question about the couplers.

I don't use Kadee at all. I use Sergent couplers on all models but the Kadee hon3 coupler should be #714 

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Monday, April 12, 2021, 03:29:27 PM PDT, Bryian Sones via groups.io <bryian.sones@...> wrote:


The caboose side widow configuration is typical of the D&RGW short caboose.

The single window side would have the stove with a bunk next to it. 

The model Mark found on  brasstrains, is correctly modeled 0578  (all spotting features I mentioned seem to match the prototype pics)

The trucks on the model have been replaced. They are Blackstone Caboose trucks.

The dual brake cylinder I believe is an error. It should have a brake cylinder and air reservoir on the other side.   

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Monday, April 12, 2021, 02:21:53 PM PDT, Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:


Mark!  Thanks for this find, that is the caboose, EXCEPT that the trucks are different.  The one in the linked images has outside hanger brakes, where as the trucks for the subject model do not.  I suspect that the trucks on the brasstrains.com guide page are replacements.  I can tell you that disassembling the caboose this morning convinced me that it has never been disassembled before.

 

It also appears that the person who painted that caboose removed the brass cast scale coupler pocket in favor of a Kadee box.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Rossiter
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 5:06 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] HOn3 D&RGW caboose (amended)

 

There is an entry on the BrassTrains.com website that looks a lot like your model that indicates it was imported by PFM in 1964.  The detail on your model looks to be about that vintage.  Although this site claims the builder was Katsumi, I believe United may have utilized a number of builders to produce models under their name.  PFM was a heavy user of United.

 

https://www.brasstrains.com/BrassGuide/Pdg/Detail/27059/HOn3-Rolling-Stock-Caboose-Pacific-Fast-Mail-Denver-Rio-Grande-Western-CABOOSE

 

Mark Rossiter


Re: PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train

bill stanton
 

would express reefers have been intermingled with ordinary reefers in the icing process or kept separate?


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 4:22 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train
 
please elaborate further...i'm simply trying to figure out how to handle them operationally on my railroad (modeling colton and LA circa 1947)

A string of express reefers might be taken over to the ice deck, if it happened to be nearby. But single cars, and cars in trains without time to wait for movement to an ice deck, would be iced right at the depot, using an elevating truck body to get ice up to the ice hatches. Photos of all this in the PFE book.

Tony Thompson




Re: PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train

Tony Thompson
 

please elaborate further...i'm simply trying to figure out how to handle them operationally on my railroad (modeling colton and LA circa 1947)

A string of express reefers might be taken over to the ice deck, if it happened to be nearby. But single cars, and cars in trains without time to wait for movement to an ice deck, would be iced right at the depot, using an elevating truck body to get ice up to the ice hatches. Photos of all this in the PFE book.

Tony Thompson




Re: PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train

bill stanton
 

please elaborate further...i'm simply trying to figure out how to handle them operationally on my railroad (modeling colton and LA circa 1947)


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 11:16 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PFE Express Reefer in NYC Express Train
 
bill stanton wrote:

were these express reefers iced along with ordinary reefers or were they handled separately?

Yes. By which I mean, it depended. 

Tony Thompson




Re: N&W gon loaded with coal in 1938 Kentucky

James Brewer
 

N&W 95762 would be N&W Class GU, #93600 - 97599; cars built in 1925 at a cost of $1,714.82; cars  in series 95600 - 965599 were built by Pressed Steel Car Co.  See Norfolk and Western Coal Cars, 1881 - 1998, by Andrew Dow, page 93.

Jim Brewer


Re: HOn3 D&RGW caboose (amended)

Bryian Sones
 

The caboose side widow configuration is typical of the D&RGW short caboose.

The single window side would have the stove with a bunk next to it. 

The model Mark found on  brasstrains, is correctly modeled 0578  (all spotting features I mentioned seem to match the prototype pics)

The trucks on the model have been replaced. They are Blackstone Caboose trucks.

The dual brake cylinder I believe is an error. It should have a brake cylinder and air reservoir on the other side.   

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Monday, April 12, 2021, 02:21:53 PM PDT, Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:


Mark!  Thanks for this find, that is the caboose, EXCEPT that the trucks are different.  The one in the linked images has outside hanger brakes, where as the trucks for the subject model do not.  I suspect that the trucks on the brasstrains.com guide page are replacements.  I can tell you that disassembling the caboose this morning convinced me that it has never been disassembled before.

 

It also appears that the person who painted that caboose removed the brass cast scale coupler pocket in favor of a Kadee box.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Rossiter
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 5:06 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] HOn3 D&RGW caboose (amended)

 

There is an entry on the BrassTrains.com website that looks a lot like your model that indicates it was imported by PFM in 1964.  The detail on your model looks to be about that vintage.  Although this site claims the builder was Katsumi, I believe United may have utilized a number of builders to produce models under their name.  PFM was a heavy user of United.

 

https://www.brasstrains.com/BrassGuide/Pdg/Detail/27059/HOn3-Rolling-Stock-Caboose-Pacific-Fast-Mail-Denver-Rio-Grande-Western-CABOOSE

 

Mark Rossiter


Re: PRR X29B and X29D

Mike Clements
 

Thanks everyone. Got everything I need (including an undec Branchline box with 7 doors, Tom Haag's PK decals and a full bottle of Polly Scale Italian Camo Brown). Since Intermountain no longer sells spare parts, I'll have to rebuild the underframe from the Branchline part, so I'll pass on the offer for more info on that build, but thanks anyway, that would have been the way to go.

Mike Clements
Wakefield, MA
nyc65.wordpress.com

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