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Re: PRR X28A

Schleigh Mike
 

Hi Ron & Group!

My October 1958 ORER shows 2921 X28A cars in service in the 120014-125000 block.  Can't say much about the CK but that is certainly a solid number of cars to be around.  There is no 'qualifier' noted for these cars as if they might have been limited in their assignments.

Hope this helps.

Regards from western Penna, Grove City, where winter appears to be coming back.

Mike Schleigh

On Saturday, January 25, 2020, 01:39:38 PM EST, mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:


I started on an F&C kit for a PRR X28A, with AB brake and Youngstown doors.  There's actually one photo on rr-picturearchives, showing PRR 121861 in what might be the SK scheme, can't see the side clearly enough to tell but at all events this is a paint scheme from the 50s after the end of the CK scheme.

But looking at the X28 page at prr.railfan.net, which I use frequently, it appears that the quantity of X28A was diminishing rapidly in the late 50s.  So first, I'm wondering if the photo of 121861 might be just a publicity photo and very few of these cars were ever painted in this scheme.  Second, if I paint this model in CK, how likely were these cars to be found in interchange service by the late 50s?  I model a Kansas secondary main line that got some East Coast manufactured goods traffic but also had a lot of 40' cars sitting around waiting for grain shipments during certain seasons of the year.  It was not a bridge route.

Basically, I'm trying to decide exactly how likely it would be to see one of these cars in Kansas during this period.  I could just as easily pass this model on to someone who would be more at home with it.  I've got several other PRR rebuild boxcars in the works now that are probably more appropriate.

Ron Merrick

PRR X28A

mopacfirst
 

I started on an F&C kit for a PRR X28A, with AB brake and Youngstown doors.  There's actually one photo on rr-picturearchives, showing PRR 121861 in what might be the SK scheme, can't see the side clearly enough to tell but at all events this is a paint scheme from the 50s after the end of the CK scheme.

But looking at the X28 page at prr.railfan.net, which I use frequently, it appears that the quantity of X28A was diminishing rapidly in the late 50s.  So first, I'm wondering if the photo of 121861 might be just a publicity photo and very few of these cars were ever painted in this scheme.  Second, if I paint this model in CK, how likely were these cars to be found in interchange service by the late 50s?  I model a Kansas secondary main line that got some East Coast manufactured goods traffic but also had a lot of 40' cars sitting around waiting for grain shipments during certain seasons of the year.  It was not a bridge route.

Basically, I'm trying to decide exactly how likely it would be to see one of these cars in Kansas during this period.  I could just as easily pass this model on to someone who would be more at home with it.  I've got several other PRR rebuild boxcars in the works now that are probably more appropriate.

Ron Merrick
Photo: NYC&HR Boxcar 91144

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: NYC&HR Boxcar 91144

A circa 1908 photo: of

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2016813936/

Click on "View Larger" to see more details.

Boxcar has truss rods, Fox trucks and a "reverse opening" door.

Notice the vertical grab iron and lack of a sill step on the near corner of this car. All three boxcars have only one sill step. I speculate the single sill step was a common arrangement during that era, before the Safety Appliance Act was amended in 1911.

The second boxcar is Lackawanna 27189.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA
Re: Branchline Blueprint 50-foot variations

rdgbuff56
 

I have added the Branchline Freight Car and Passenger Car info to STMFC@groups.io

I can not find a place to download items on RealSTMFC

Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.
On Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 5:22:45 AM EST, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Francis,

Since many of their cars also fit our period of interest, might we also have a download on our site?

Yours Aye,

Mungo Napier, Laird of Mallard Lodge  🦆


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 6:28 PM rdgbuff56 via Groups.Io <rdgbuff56=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I downloaded their whole freight car catalog at MFCL group.

Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020, 7:40:59 PM UTC, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Branchline -

 8 foot and 9 foot riveted single door 50 foot box cars.

 welded 50 foot single door car with 9 foot doors.

 double door 50 foot box car.

 TWO different insulated box cars with 8 foot doors.

All have separate roofs and ends.



On 1/20/2020 8:12 AM, Bill Welch wrote:
> I need a reminder regarding the Branchline Blueprint 50-foot boxcars
> in terms of the variations. I know they produced an 8-foot door car
> and an insulated car w/a sliding flush door. Note, I am not interested
> in the more modern cars they did, only the ones that would have the
> Improved Dreadnaught end variations.
>
> Did they do a 9-foot door or any double door examples? Did the do any
> with a lower straight side sill?
>
> Thank you
> Bill Welch


--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*
Re: Atlas ex-Branchline 50-foot boxcar w/8-foot doors and tabbed sills

Bill Welch
 

I typed the kit number into my search engine and it took me to TTH and the kits.

Bill Welch
Re: Atlas ex-Branchline 50-foot boxcar w/8-foot doors and tabbed sills

rdgbuff56
 

Where did you search on their website?

Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.

On Saturday, January 25, 2020, 2:18:19 AM UTC, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:


For anyone interested earlier this week I ordered and received four undec. Atlas #20001448 (Branchline #1000C) with four ends and three roofs and various parts molded in grey styrene. These have the tabbed side sill and 8-foot single doors. They came from Toy Train Heaven.

Bill Welch

Atlas ex-Branchline 50-foot boxcar w/8-foot doors and tabbed sills

Bill Welch
 

For anyone interested earlier this week I ordered and received four undec. Atlas #20001448 (Branchline #1000C) with four ends and three roofs and various parts molded in grey styrene. These have the tabbed side sill and 8-foot single doors. They came from Toy Train Heaven.

Bill Welch
Re: Wrecked car with interior details from 1948

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

  Definitely a milk tank car of the BMT classification and most likely of 6,000 gal. capacity by that year 
with two 3,000 gal. tanks as Dennis describes. If yhou look above the reefer doors you can see the vent
door with its sliding cover that allowed it to be openedso the filler piping could enter the car through it.
Almost looks like and Sealtest car but I need to check my material to be sure.

Cordially, Don Valentine
Re: Car End Data

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

Dave Parker wrote:

Some owners continued to stencil these lists on the car-ends into the 1930s, but many did not.  It can often
be hard to tell in photos of well-weathered cars with dirty ends.

    Actually in the case of one type of carit went later than that. The last of the General American built milk 
tank cars for the General American - Pfaudler Corp. were built in 1947 in both 6,000 and 8.000 gal.capacity
all of which had such end lettering even at that date.

Cordialy, Don Valentine
Re: Standard Steel Drawing List

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Oops.  Now I know!!

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Webber
Sent: Jan 24, 2020 6:00 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Standard Steel Drawing List

Or better, not!  Steve I forgot to tell you. Bob left them at the hotel, they are now safely back in union.  They'll be added to and displayed at various meets, including cocoa Beach, Collinsville and perhaps others as well.....

Sent from BlueMail
On Jan 24, 2020, at 4:55 PM, Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:
One small addendum:  For those attending the Springfield meet this weekend and visiting Bob's Photos room, he may well have available our Pullman Library example drawings books to view.  There are a number of drawings from both Pullman and Standard Steel Car that provide, in a reduced size, examples of what we have to work with at IRM.  Ask Bob to see them, if he has them with him.  We believe that they left CCB with him a couple of weeks ago.

Steve Hile
Re: Standard Steel Drawing List

Bob Webber
 

Or better, not!  Steve I forgot to tell you. Bob left them at the hotel, they are now safely back in union.  They'll be added to and displayed at various meets, including cocoa Beach, Collinsville and perhaps others as well.....

Sent from BlueMail
On Jan 24, 2020, at 4:55 PM, Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:

One small addendum:  For those attending the Springfield meet this weekend and visiting Bob's Photos room, he may well have available our Pullman Library example drawings books to view.  There are a number of drawings from both Pullman and Standard Steel Car that provide, in a reduced size, examples of what we have to work with at IRM.  Ask Bob to see them, if he has them with him.  We believe that they left CCB with him a couple of weeks ago.

Steve Hile
Re: Standard Steel Drawing List

Steve and Barb Hile
 

One small addendum:  For those attending the Springfield meet this weekend and visiting Bob's Photos room, he may well have available our Pullman Library example drawings books to view.  There are a number of drawings from both Pullman and Standard Steel Car that provide, in a reduced size, examples of what we have to work with at IRM.  Ask Bob to see them, if he has them with him.  We believe that they left CCB with him a couple of weeks ago.

Steve Hile

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Jan 24, 2020 12:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Standard Steel Drawing List


Having looked at a lot, but not as many as Bob, of SSC drawings, both for the UTLX book and in my role as a volunteer at IRM, I can tell you that there is nothing on the drawings (for sure the GA drawings) that would link it to anything like a lot number or order number.  Neither have we uncovered anything that looks like a Bill of Material for a SSC lot.  Many GA drawings do refer to the railroad and number series of the cars built in the upper RH corner and will SOMETIMES list subsequent builds to that same drawing.

For sure, SSC recorded order numbers and other purchase data in some form, but we have not found that Rosetta stone, as of yet.

Eric Neubauer's exhaustive research into Pullman, Haskell and Barker, Standard Steel Car and Pullman Standard freight car builds contains a lot of good information that I use, extensively, as a key to knowing the GA, lot number, etc. when one of our customers asks for something based on road name and number series.  In the past year or so, we have been quite successful in finding GA drawings for Resin Car Works, Shake N Take and others.

Keith Retterer's SSC photo catalog also provides some important clues and my current project is to try and develop a searchable file that will combine information from these multiple sources.  When this file is ready, we will share it on the Library's web site, like the scanned drawing file that Bob has already referred to.

Bob, as curator of the Pullman Library, may be the youngest of the regular volunteers there, so his calls for others to help keep the flame alive are very real.

I have been extremely pleased, over the last 10-15 years to discover the various troves of primary source data, such as the Barriger Library and Museum of Transport in St. Louis (ACF) and the Pullman Library (Budd, PS, H&B, SSC, etc.)  One of the missing links would be a comparable source for General American items.

I hope that this is clear and helpful.  Be sure that if you contact us, directly, at the Pullman Library, we will do everything we can to assist you.

Steve Hile
Pullman Library Volunteer since 2015
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Storzek
Sent: Jan 24, 2020 11:59 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Standard Steel Drawing List

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 06:31 AM, Bob Webber wrote:
We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe.  They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use).  The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence.  (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number).  SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence.  Very similar.  IF you have the data on the tubes.  We do not.  They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year.  NOT by size.  We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it.  It is not in the caption information. 
Bob,
Did Standard Steel Car NOT use a system of lot or order numbers? It seems to me this is the one piece of data that will quickly pull all the drawings for a particular car together, irregardless of the drawing numbering system. I suppose it's possible they didn't. Stranger things have happened; I recall one builder (Jackson and Sharp, IIRC) where each individual car had its own order number, similar to locomotive builder's numbers.  Yet, if their drawings still existed, that number should allow reference to all the drawings that pertain to the car.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Standard Steel Drawing List

Ed Hawkins
 



On Jan 24, 2020, at 12:07 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 09:36 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
Having looked at a lot, but not as many as Bob, of SSC drawings, both for the UTLX book and in my role as a volunteer at IRM, I can tell you that there is nothing on the drawings (for sure the GA drawings) that would link it to anything like a lot number or order number. 
That is disappointing. SSC undoubtedly had a lot, order, or job number for billing purposes if nothing else, and undoubtedly had a list of drawings included in the Bill of Materials, but their failure to include the number on the drawings means you can't start there to find related drawings, you need the drawing list. Lets hope in comes to light some day.

Dennis & Steve,
From experience of cataloguing thousands of ACF drawings as well as seeing a substantial number of Pullman-Standard drawings, it was typical that drawings used to manufacture parts or assemblies received a lot number (or similar term each builder used for compiling their order list). Several thousand ACF drawings were created with the purpose of developing a new design, but if the design didn’t materialize with actual hardware the drawings received no lot number. Still other drawings were developed at the request of a customer for purposes of making a cost estimate, but these drawings were not assigned lot numbers if a production order didn’t follow. Similarly “blank” lot number on ACF drawings occurred when an order originally had drawings annotated with a lot number and in some cases production had begun, only to be erased if when the order was canceled. 

Numerous freight car diagrams reference what I believe Standard Steel Car Co. called an Office Order (O.O.) number, a term that Greenville Steel Car Co. & Pressed Steel Car Co. also used to document orders received. While I suppose anything is possible, it would surprise me if SSC drawings used to manufacture production parts or assemblies did not reference an O.O. number. If not, surely SSC used another method to cross-reference orders & the drawings that applied. 

For the years I’m most familiar with (1923 to early 1930s), SSC order numbers were typically chronologically-assigned using a separately numbering system for each plant the cars were assigned to be built. These plant locations included Butler, Pa., Hammond, Ind., and others SSC acquired over time. Some SSC order numbers on freight car diagrams are denoted with a letter prefix. The prefix may have always been part of the official SSC order list, however, I’ve seen many references to SSC O.O. numbers that didn’t include a prefix letter. Prefix letters “E”, “F” & "G” followed by 4 numerical digits commonly used for freight cars known to be built at Butler in the 1920s to 1931. Prefix letter “H” followed by 3 numerical digits are referenced on some Rock Island diagrams built at Hammond, while NKP diagrams had Hammond-built cars assigned a 5-digit number without any letter prefix.

In 2002 Eric Neubauer published a spiral-bound booklet “Pullman-Standard Freight Car Production, Including Predecessors.” Starting on page 130 it lists SSC production 1902 to the early 1930s. Included are O.O. numbers for those Eric knew at the time.  In the 18 years subsequent to that publication I’m reasonably sure that Eric has since located additional order numbers. 
Regards,
Ed Hawkins
Re: Wrecked car with interior details from 1948

Bud Rindfleisch
 

The placard to the left of the door looks like Dairymen's League.
    Bud Rindfleisch
Re: Standard Steel Drawing List

Bob Webber
 

It is not (and we have at least 1 SS Soo stencil drawing scanned).  SS, Fink, Baltimore Car and a few other, small ones have a smattering of drawings that we have been indexing slowly.  A few dozen tubes.  Middleton car has over 500 tubes and a number of flat files.  Osgood Bradley has hundreds of tubes (thousands, actually) and dozens of drawers (of anywhere from 100 to 1000 drawings per drawer).  When we move (old refrain, I know) these will be separated and indexed. 

Now...it can also be because we simply have had no call to find anything in those series.  We did the one series (53nnn) as an experiment to see how many drawings we had in that series.   But, for the most part, we have not done wholesale scanning of SSC.  If someone asks for a given tube, we are now trying to scan all drawings in tubes we drag over - we've scanned about 100 complete tubes, maybe more.

At 12:33 PM 1/24/2020, Dennis Storzek wrote:

I only see four drawings listed for the Soo Line, searching both by common name and corporate initials. This isn't surprising, as the Soo bought very little from SSC, but begs the question, is Siems Stembel production included in the SSC list?

Dennis

Bob Webber

Re: Standard Steel Drawing List

Bob Webber
 

Dennis, I have said, more than a few times, any bureaucracy I have been associated with has ALWAYS used some form of authorizing instrument/number.  Lot, Order, Job Order, Construction Order - SOMETHING. 

Yet...as an example, Pullman Co. did not apply their authorizing information on the hundreds of drawings for the rebuild cars done by Pullman (NOT Pullman-Standard) in the 30s and 40s.  Nothing.  Many times, they have drawings without the car owner/name/number indicated.  So...it's not impossible, or necessarily unique not to have that on drawings. 


At 12:07 PM 1/24/2020, Dennis Storzek wrote:

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 09:36 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
Having looked at a lot, but not as many as Bob, of SSC drawings, both for the UTLX book and in my role as a volunteer at IRM, I can tell you that there is nothing on the drawings (for sure the GA drawings) that would link it to anything like a lot number or order number.

That is disappointing. SSC undoubtedly had a lot, order, or job number for billing purposes if nothing else, and undoubtedly had a list of drawings included in the Bill of Materials, but their failure to include the number on the drawings means you can't start there to find related drawings, you need the drawing list. Lets hope in comes to light some day.


Dennis

Bob Webber

Re: Standard Steel Drawing List

Bob Webber
 

Dennis, I think Steve answered this, but I'll expound.  SSC *must have* had Lot and order info (in fact we know they did - well maybe - they might be railroads' Lot numbers).  In very few drawings is such even mentioned.  About 60% of what we found have car numbers series.  There are oft times 2 dates, one the drawing was produced, one the order was processed.   But Lots?  Not so much.  Same with early H&B drawings, as you've seen. 

We have no key to SSC - we don't have drawing lists (though there is a book in Harrisburg that has them) nor correspondence.  We have Eric's lists and occasionaly, roger will provide us with drawing numbers he's gleaned from trips to Harrisburg.

There is no one number evident in the drawings to tie drawings together with.    SOMETIMES, there will be reference to other drawings on a given drawing, sometimes, they'll reference the railroad or other manufacturer drawing number (Common Standard, AT&SF, AC&F, etc.). 

There is the drawer number, which pertains to size and sequence, and the sequential number.  As far as we know, at this time, that's it.  

Keith uses a number found on the negatives, but those appear to be merely sequential negative numbers, by plant.   There are some Lot numbers I have found through various sources.  But not the drawings themselves.   Why they didn't add them, I don't know.  SSC had some strange behaviors - they re-drew vendor drawings, for instance, whereas Pullman simply referred to them (better for us though).  They re-drew their own drawings rather than refer to them.  We hope this process will provide us with some insights!

At 10:59 AM 1/24/2020, Dennis Storzek wrote:

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 06:31 AM, Bob Webber wrote:
We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe.  They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use).  The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence.  (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number).  SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence.  Very similar.  IF you have the data on the tubes.  We do not.  They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year.  NOT by size.  We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it.  It is not in the caption information.

Bob,
Did Standard Steel Car NOT use a system of lot or order numbers? It seems to me this is the one piece of data that will quickly pull all the drawings for a particular car together, irregardless of the drawing numbering system. I suppose it's possible they didn't. Stranger things have happened; I recall one builder (Jackson and Sharp, IIRC) where each individual car had its own order number, similar to locomotive builder's numbers.  Yet, if their drawings still existed, that number should allow reference to all the drawings that pertain to the car.

Dennis Storzek

Bob Webber

Re: NYC box car with a star on it

Bob Chaparro
 

Even though the car was intended for grain loading ("A star under the oval herald indicates car used in grain service") I would suppose the car still would be inspected before loading and given the appropriate grade card tag (see examples) if it passed inspection.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA
Re: Standard Steel Drawing List

Bob Webber
 

Thanks, Mike (there might actually be a couple of interest, we found another tube in that sequence).

I don't know who has the Pressed Steel drawings - Keith has some photos, but I tried locating the PSC (and other manuf. drawings) years back - to no avail.  As Steve mentioned, General American and such are another good target.   I've tried contacting them, and received no reply (a not uncommon result).  There are other drawings, past the era of this list that I've been working on as well.  

Some may say "Why" after what I tried to provide today.  The answer is simple - I don't care WHO has them, I want them accessible.  Though some feel the hobby has passed them by, I find them very useful and...well...to be honest, many are works of art.

A lot of the issues with access will gradually dissipate as we are able to get the drawings in one place, and, hopefully, in flat files, indexed and in order.   I want to recreate the order SSC had - by sequence number, within drawer numbers.  

Toward that end, we have, as I said, been adding the drawer number to the drawing metadata.   More data is not added until we get the collections management software, where there are buckets for more.  Right now, and I should have made this clear yesterday - there is more data being capture than what is shown in that list, but are not in the list due to portability issues with the database (that is, they don't port outside of the database well). 

We did, thanks to you and another customer, try to locate all of the freight car drawings from a given series (all the 53nnn) - we have about scanned some 70 of them, located more (but who needs rivets, hand grabs, chain, etc.?).  We did that in an effort to understand the system that was used, and our "slice" of the SSC pie (Harrisburg has the other slice, in terms of drawings)..  We hope to add to the collection data - as Steve mentions, he's working on a SSC master list that will make many queries like yours, much easier.  

If anyone knows of the location of the PSC, BSC or other steam era freight car drawings or photos, let me know.  I want to add the information and access "rules" to the research page.   Thanks (yes, I know about Mid-Continent's wonderful pages, and have linked them)...
'


At 09:34 AM 1/24/2020, you wrote:
Thank you for this work, Bob!

And sharing your reality.  From my view of the world you have there, I find what you have presented very helpful.  Using this list, I have targeted another candidate for drawings and I readily found many of those you and Steve Hile recently extricated for me.  I can see how what you have done will help find sources quicker.  I also know from past experience that not everything is readily obvious as you dig deeper for details so some back-and-forth with the  customer will likely always be a part of the search process.

You have an incredible resource and I believe the list you have established will be helpful for future searches.

Now, if only Pressed Steel Car drawings were so accessible.

Regards from Grove City in western Penna.    Mike Schleigh

Bob Webber

Re: Standard Steel Drawing List

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

I only see four drawings listed for the Soo Line, searching both by common name and corporate initials. This isn't surprising, as the Soo bought very little from SSC, but begs the question, is Siems Stembel production included in the SSC list?

Dennis
30221 - 30240 of 199705