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KINX tank car (was Re: Need help / GM&O 17000 series boxcars)

David
 

General American Type 17.  The body bolster matches GATC, and a PTC or STC tank would almost always have the safety valves on opposite sides of the manway. Not definitive, but the lettering style also matches GATX practice.

David Thompson
Re: Need help

Matt Smith
 

Some images of car details of the Alton 17,000 series. Pantagraph Digital Archives from 1946. Good siding, trucks, stirrup and stencil detials

https://www.idaillinois.org/digital/collection/p16614coll63/id/1707/rec/12
https://www.idaillinois.org/digital/collection/p16614coll63/id/1702/rec/11
https://www.idaillinois.org/digital/collection/p16614coll63/id/1727/rec/181
https://www.idaillinois.org/digital/collection/p16614coll63/id/1578/rec/5
--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL
OT: Rye (was ) Transfer Yard (1910)

Nolan Hinshaw
 

On Sep 16, 2022, at 10:46, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Love the Great Valley Rye painted on the building. Rye is making a great comeback in the country.
Anchor Distilling in San Francisco perpetrates an outstanding 12 year old pot-distilled rye single, Old Potrero, which goes down the tubes so smoothly that it's dangerous.
--
Little Willie from the mirror sucked the mercury all off
Thinking in his childish error it would cure his whooping cought.
At the funeral Willie's mother said to Mrs. Brown,
"Twas a chilly day for Willie when the mercury went down.
KINX tank car (was Re: Need help / GM&O 17000 series boxcars)

Tim O'Connor
 


Anyone recognize the builder of that KINX tank car ? Is it a Pennsylvania Tank Car, or perhaps a Standard Tank Car ?

On 9/17/2022 9:21 PM, David via groups.io wrote:

I expect that few or none of these cars were repainted/relettered for GM&O. The Alton series was almost entirely retired/scrapped in the late 1940s.

There are a few photos showing these cars in their Alton days. Page 6 of Ray Breyer's Alton fleet summary shows another 17000 series rebuild, albeit with the original (?) roof and inverse Murphy ends. This view does show the extended side straps and the door setup.
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Alton_frt_car_fleet.pdf

Several of them show up in this view:
http://www.idaillinois.org/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=p16614coll63&CISOPTR=6617&action=2&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=9999&DMHEIGHT=9999

David Thompson

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: Photo: SP Klamath Falls Yard

Tim O'Connor
 


If that photo really is from 1930, I wonder if the large number of SP (and T&NO) box cars seen together
(without foreign cars) were in storage due to the economic circumstances of that time period. To be sure through
traffic went by the far easier and faster route through Dunsmuir and Klamath Falls as soon as the line was built.



On 9/4/2022 7:12 PM, Jim Betz wrote:

Hello all,

  It turns out that the SP "main" -DID- shift to the K Falls route and was very much in
use ... and carrying more traffic than the Siskiyou line.  I've been told by someone
who knows the SP much better than I.  Thanks for the correction, BD.
                                                                                                       - Jim

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: Need help / GM&O 17000 series boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

Many thanks David.  good info and the photo is a big help
Fenton

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 9:21 PM David via groups.io <jaydeet2001=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I expect that few or none of these cars were repainted/relettered for
GM&O. The Alton series was almost entirely retired/scrapped in the late
1940s.

There are a few photos showing these cars in their Alton days. Page 6 of
Ray Breyer's Alton fleet summary shows another 17000 series rebuild,
albeit with the original (?) roof and inverse Murphy ends. This view
does show the extended side straps and the door setup.
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Alton_frt_car_fleet.pdf

Several of them show up in this view:
http://www.idaillinois.org/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=p16614coll63&CISOPTR=6617&action=2&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=9999&DMHEIGHT=9999

David Thompson







--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...
Re: Need help

O Fenton Wells
 

Boy, Ray thanks so much for the Info.  I noticed in one of Ted Cullottas books on the double sheathed the SP, UP and the C&A were mentioned as Harriman roads show similar boxcars but not with the radial roof.  Would I be close, starting with the Westerfield version and changing the ends and roof?  Seems that way.  No AB breaks however I see.
Fenton

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 9:38 PM Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
The cars were retired by the 1954 K brake ban. None were ever repainted to GM&O, and none ever got Youngstown doors (remember: the Alton was a POOR railroad, and kept things basic)

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 05:25:02 PM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


Thanks Ray, so these,  as rebuilds were wood with radial roofs and dreadnaught ends? And if I could find a photo of a GM&O 17XXX series car that would work?  
I want to bash one but need more info. Were the doors wood or Youngstown? And any idea of the type of ends? 3/3/3 or 4/5?
Thank you
Fenton 


On Sep 17, 2022, at 5:21 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:



These are NOT steel cars. Download the high-res image from the Library of Congress, and pay close attention to the sides: the horizontal end to body supports are a clear indication that these are double sheathed cars (as well as the fact that you can see the sheathing).


The Alton/C&A only ever had ONE group of cars in the 17000-series: the B-50-whatever lookalikes. They got rebuilt in the 1920s with new roofs and steels ends. As 1920s rebuilding programs are HORRIBLY recorded, i'm not surprised at all that this car has "deviant from standard" squashed Dreadnaught ends and a radial roof (and has its roof painted in a fairly shiny coat of asphaltum that's been covered in soot)

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


I'm looking for photos and info on Alton Railroad boxcars in the 17000-17998 series for a kitbash.  These were steel with radial roofs and that's about all I know.  Charlie Duckworth posted a photo and I want to kitnbash one so any help is appreciated.  When they were folded into the GM&O RR did they keep their numbers or were they renumbered if so a GM&O photo would work as well.
Thanks in advance for any help.  You may contact me off line at srrfAN1401@... if desired. Attached is the picture from Charlie Duckworth and it is the only photo I have.
Fenton
2EF15529-C279-4B32-9E4F-3335643D6015.jpeg



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...
Re: Airbrushing Water-Base Paints

Ray Hutchison
 

Excellent and very useful post.  Thank you, Lester.
Re: Need help / GM&O 17000 series boxcars

Ray Breyer
 

Actually, I think that these cars were rebuilt in two groups: one with flat roofs and Murphy ends, and a second with radials and Dreadnaughts. That makes sense, as a road as cash strapped as the Alton wouldn't spring for enough material to rebuild 1000 cars all at once.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 07:25:50 PM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


Ray Breyer  feels that these were 1905 wooden cars rebuilt with radial roofs and some version of dreadnaught ends. We are still looking
Thanks for your input


On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Srrfan1401 <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


Thanks Todd, I’m looking for that photo



On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

Fenton,

A little more data.  I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed.  They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board  and 2730 cuft..  By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.

Todd Sullivan

Re: Need help

Ray Breyer
 

Inline image

Ajax.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 06:55:33 PM CDT, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:


Fenton,

Looking at the Library of Congress copy of the photo, it kinda looks to me like the ends were 3/3 ends with a wide part at the bottom of the bottom panel.  I'm not sure I can figure out the handbrake or the door type, so another photo is needed.

Todd Sullivan

Re: Need help

Ray Breyer
 

The cars were retired by the 1954 K brake ban. None were ever repainted to GM&O, and none ever got Youngstown doors (remember: the Alton was a POOR railroad, and kept things basic)

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 05:25:02 PM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


Thanks Ray, so these,  as rebuilds were wood with radial roofs and dreadnaught ends? And if I could find a photo of a GM&O 17XXX series car that would work?  
I want to bash one but need more info. Were the doors wood or Youngstown? And any idea of the type of ends? 3/3/3 or 4/5?
Thank you
Fenton 


On Sep 17, 2022, at 5:21 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:



These are NOT steel cars. Download the high-res image from the Library of Congress, and pay close attention to the sides: the horizontal end to body supports are a clear indication that these are double sheathed cars (as well as the fact that you can see the sheathing).


The Alton/C&A only ever had ONE group of cars in the 17000-series: the B-50-whatever lookalikes. They got rebuilt in the 1920s with new roofs and steels ends. As 1920s rebuilding programs are HORRIBLY recorded, i'm not surprised at all that this car has "deviant from standard" squashed Dreadnaught ends and a radial roof (and has its roof painted in a fairly shiny coat of asphaltum that's been covered in soot)

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


I'm looking for photos and info on Alton Railroad boxcars in the 17000-17998 series for a kitbash.  These were steel with radial roofs and that's about all I know.  Charlie Duckworth posted a photo and I want to kitnbash one so any help is appreciated.  When they were folded into the GM&O RR did they keep their numbers or were they renumbered if so a GM&O photo would work as well.
Thanks in advance for any help.  You may contact me off line at srrfAN1401@... if desired. Attached is the picture from Charlie Duckworth and it is the only photo I have.
Fenton
2EF15529-C279-4B32-9E4F-3335643D6015.jpeg
Re: Need help

Ray Breyer
 

Remember that the ORERs are a GUIDE, and not always the best one, since it relied on railroads self-reporting. In the case of the C&As 17000s, they actually LOST a quarter inch between 1915 and 1950. Judging by the photos I have of them, they were never raised height cars.

And their diagram book pages are cartoons, barely meeting MCBA requirements. While the 1927 drawing says Murphy ends, we have a photos refuting that. (and the archbars were replaced by 940; this was the Alton's largest, and thus most important, boxcar group, and they needed to be out on the road making money).

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 05:16:52 PM CDT, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:


Ray, does that suggest using Westerfield sides with new ends and a roof ought to work or do we know the height was increased?  

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock


On Sep 17, 2022, at 2:20 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:


These are NOT steel cars. Download the high-res image from the Library of Congress, and pay close attention to the sides: the horizontal end to body supports are a clear indication that these are double sheathed cars (as well as the fact that you can see the sheathing).


The Alton/C&A only ever had ONE group of cars in the 17000-series: the B-50-whatever lookalikes. They got rebuilt in the 1920s with new roofs and steels ends. As 1920s rebuilding programs are HORRIBLY recorded, i'm not surprised at all that this car has "deviant from standard" squashed Dreadnaught ends and a radial roof (and has its roof painted in a fairly shiny coat of asphaltum that's been covered in soot)

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


I'm looking for photos and info on Alton Railroad boxcars in the 17000-17998 series for a kitbash.  These were steel with radial roofs and that's about all I know.  Charlie Duckworth posted a photo and I want to kitnbash one so any help is appreciated.  When they were folded into the GM&O RR did they keep their numbers or were they renumbered if so a GM&O photo would work as well.
Thanks in advance for any help.  You may contact me off line at srrfAN1401@... if desired. Attached is the picture from Charlie Duckworth and it is the only photo I have.
Fenton
<2EF15529-C279-4B32-9E4F-3335643D6015.jpeg>
Need help / GM&O 17000 series boxcars

David
 

I expect that few or none of these cars were repainted/relettered for GM&O. The Alton series was almost entirely retired/scrapped in the late 1940s.

There are a few photos showing these cars in their Alton days. Page 6 of Ray Breyer's Alton fleet summary shows another 17000 series rebuild, albeit with the original (?) roof and inverse Murphy ends. This view does show the extended side straps and the door setup.
http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Alton_frt_car_fleet.pdf

Several of them show up in this view:
http://www.idaillinois.org/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=p16614coll63&CISOPTR=6617&action=2&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=9999&DMHEIGHT=9999

David Thompson
Re: Need help / GM&O 17000 series boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

Ed, thank you so much for your excellent response. I’m getting the picture now that by 1953 there weren’t many of these cars left. But they were wood cars with radial roofs and some kind of dreadnaught ends. I think I’ll go back to Bob’s phots to see if he has a GM &O photo of these cars
I’ll keep looking and thanks again 
Fenton 


On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:25 PM, O Fenton Wells via groups.io <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Ray Breyer  feels that these were 1905 wooden cars rebuilt with radial roofs and some version of dreadnaught ends. We are still looking
Thanks for your input


On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Srrfan1401 <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Thanks Todd, I’m looking for that photo



On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

Fenton,

A little more data.  I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed.  They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board  and 2730 cuft..  By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.

Todd Sullivan

Re: Need help / GM&O 17000 series boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

Ray Breyer  feels that these were 1905 wooden cars rebuilt with radial roofs and some version of dreadnaught ends. We are still looking
Thanks for your input


On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Srrfan1401 <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Thanks Todd, I’m looking for that photo



On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

Fenton,

A little more data.  I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed.  They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board  and 2730 cuft..  By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.

Todd Sullivan

Re: Need help / GM&O 17000 series boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Todd, I’m looking for that photo



On Sep 17, 2022, at 8:22 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

Fenton,

A little more data.  I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed.  They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board  and 2730 cuft..  By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.

Todd Sullivan

Re: Need help / GM&O 17000 series boxcars

Todd Sullivan
 

Fenton,

A little more data.  I checked my January 1952 ORER, and the GM7O had 6 ex-Alton 17000 series boxcars listed.  They were not big cars: 12'-1" at the eaves, 12'-11" over the running board  and 2730 cuft..  By comparison, the 1937 AAR standard boxcar was about 14'-8" over the running board and 3712cuft.

Todd Sullivan
Re: Need help

Todd Sullivan
 

Fenton,

Looking at the Library of Congress copy of the photo, it kinda looks to me like the ends were 3/3 ends with a wide part at the bottom of the bottom panel.  I'm not sure I can figure out the handbrake or the door type, so another photo is needed.

Todd Sullivan
Re: Alton and RI boxcars

Charlie Duckworth
 

Steve
April 1943
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.
Re: Need help

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Ray, so these,  as rebuilds were wood with radial roofs and dreadnaught ends? And if I could find a photo of a GM&O 17XXX series car that would work?  
I want to bash one but need more info. Were the doors wood or Youngstown? And any idea of the type of ends? 3/3/3 or 4/5?
Thank you
Fenton 


On Sep 17, 2022, at 5:21 PM, Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:



These are NOT steel cars. Download the high-res image from the Library of Congress, and pay close attention to the sides: the horizontal end to body supports are a clear indication that these are double sheathed cars (as well as the fact that you can see the sheathing).


The Alton/C&A only ever had ONE group of cars in the 17000-series: the B-50-whatever lookalikes. They got rebuilt in the 1920s with new roofs and steels ends. As 1920s rebuilding programs are HORRIBLY recorded, i'm not surprised at all that this car has "deviant from standard" squashed Dreadnaught ends and a radial roof (and has its roof painted in a fairly shiny coat of asphaltum that's been covered in soot)

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM CDT, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:


I'm looking for photos and info on Alton Railroad boxcars in the 17000-17998 series for a kitbash.  These were steel with radial roofs and that's about all I know.  Charlie Duckworth posted a photo and I want to kitnbash one so any help is appreciated.  When they were folded into the GM&O RR did they keep their numbers or were they renumbered if so a GM&O photo would work as well.
Thanks in advance for any help.  You may contact me off line at srrfAN1401@... if desired. Attached is the picture from Charlie Duckworth and it is the only photo I have.
Fenton
2EF15529-C279-4B32-9E4F-3335643D6015.jpeg
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