1. main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
  2. Messages
   Date   
Re: Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

Steve Haas
 

I live in the PNW but don’t model it. As a PNW resident who leaves his car outside, however, I think a final wash of moss green would be appropriate for freight cars that spend a lot of time here. <<<<<<
As the owner of a class A RV that has spent most of the past five years outdoors in the Pacific Northwest I can assure you there is a lot of merit to Richard's comments!

Best regards,


Steve

Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA
Re: Alton and RI boxcars

Scott H. Haycock
 

I took Eric's image and excerpted this blow-up of the Alton car (attached).  I think this roof has been re-painted, probably just before they painted the sides. 

It looks like over spray of the roof color on the far half of the running board, and you can see a 'paint line' just below the near edge, showing unpainted roof under the running board itself.

And it looks like there may be a hint of red overspray along the left side of the roof, and on the edge of the nearest lateral. Judging by the overspray patterns, I'd say the wind was blowing from the left on the day this car was repainted!


Scott Haycock
Re: Transfer Yard (1910)

Bruce Smith
 

Whiskey.  Green (not Great) Valley Rye (Whiskey) was a product of Casey Bros. Pennsylvania (or Pennsyltucky, as some like to call it), used to famous for its Rye whiskey.

Here is a match case advertising said Rye
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-pre-prohibition-green-valley-1938471332


Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Philip Dove <philipdove22@...>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 4:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Transfer Yard (1910)
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
In this context is Rye a synonym for rye whiskey or is it advertising rye the seed?. My eye was caught by the massive sign for the dancing school. 
Re: Transfer Yard (1910)

Eric Hansmann
 

It could be either. The 1910 image pre-dates Prohibition.

 

And how knew Malarkey was a dancer?

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Philip Dove
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 4:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Transfer Yard (1910)

 

In this context is Rye a synonym for rye whiskey or is it advertising rye the seed?. My eye was caught by the massive sign for the dancing school. 
Re: Alton and RI boxcars

Eric Hansmann
 

I would say it is a possibility, Charlie. The Alton car looks like it has pretty fresh paint. The angle of the sun and the angle of the camera lens don’t help that much in viewing the roof color.

 

Don’t forget there was lots of soot back then. I’ve attached the photo I sent previously which has had the exposure adjusted. Check out the Pennsy X92 in the front left corner and the car beside it. The NYC box car at the right, second row back, does not seem very brown. The car in front of it and the one to the right of the NYC car also seem to have caught lots of soot and grime on the roofs. It’s a mix among all the cars.

 

I do like all the discolored wood running board planks. Another aspect to add in your weathering factory.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charlie Duckworth via groups.io
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 8:01 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Alton and RI boxcars

 

I was enlarging this image on my phone and it’s pretty evident that the Alton boxcar’s radial roof is unpainted galvanized steel and the panel caps are also unpainted (note how shiny they are in the sunlight). 


--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.
Re: Transfer Yard (1910)

Philip Dove
 

In this context is Rye a synonym for rye whiskey or is it advertising rye the seed?. My eye was caught by the massive sign for the dancing school. 
Re: Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

Nelson Moyer
 

Maybe it was painted post 1955. Photo date isn’t given.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Doggett via groups.io
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 1:42 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

 

Steve 

 

The car to the right is very orange 🤔

 

Paul Doggett 



On 16 Sep 2022, at 19:32, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:



What color would you paint this? Note there are two SFRD reefers in this photo. Jim’s statement is well taken.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 1:23 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

 

Hi all,

  Since I weather -everything- I don't fret very much about the color of
the paint and how close it is to the prototype.  Yes, of course I start
with a close match that captures the essence of the particular RR's
paint - but I'm not at all interested in getting it "perfect".

  When I weather - every car is done differently.  This one is heavier
and the next one lighter - this one has more dirt typical of the NE and
the next one has dirt representing the West coast.  Etc.
  One thing I almost always do is to hand touch up ("dry brush") on a
little paint on the details (such as ladders and grabs and couplers)
that is a few shades off of body color behind it ... to make the
details show up better.
  My final touch is to add what I call a "dusting coat" of a very thin
weathering color (not the same one on every car or group of cars).  And
after that, as needed, a dull coat to both lock everything done before
and to eliminate the shine of "newly painted".

  These are my methods.  YMMV.                        - Jim in the PNW

P.S. Since I'm now modeling the PNW - the shades of weathering colors are
     a little bit different than they were when I lived in Cowafornicatia -
     but only a little.  Darker/less "dusty".  I have decided to -not- model
     "one of the many days of rain" but rather to represent the sunny/partly
     cloudy days ... of which we have many.  *G*  The skies up here are
     simply amazing - think Dutch Masters and you pretty much have it.  Since
     my backdrops will be photos of the actual places - I'm also going to use
     cloud formations from the actual places.  Obvious - but still important.

Attachments:
Re: SANTA FE REFER COLORS

Scott H. Haycock
 


WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:




My philosophy on the proper color for Santa Fe refers coincides with Steve’s In that it is probably more important to settle on a consistent color for our fleet as opposed to having an exact, out of the shop color for the cars.

Another thing I find important is getting the colors you decide on to look right under your layout lighting. I find the brighter colors like this orange need to be toned down or they look too toy-like.

Scott Haycock


Re: SFRD

Curt Fortenberry
 


No, I've not tried black primer with Tru Color paints, difficult to get in my area.  I still have a supply of Scalecoat II, as well as I use Tamiya and Vallejo paints.

Curt Fortenberry
Re: SFRD

spsalso
 

SOME pigments are stable in UV light.  SOME are not, and to varying degrees.

The classic boxcar reds are very stable.  And they can't oxidize, because they already have.  And they are affordable.  Here is a nice article on iron oxide paints:

https://pigmentironoxide.com/news/properties-of-iron-oxide-pigments-14.html

Titanium oxide white is quite stable in UV.  And also can't oxidize.  Already is.

Another pigment that doesn't fade in UV light is lapis lazuli.  It can be kind of hard to come by, so you won't see it used painting freight cars.  For a VERY long time, this was the only way to get a nice stable blue in a painting.

Some do.  Some don't.



Ed

Edward Sutorik
Re: Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

Richard Townsend
 

I live in the PNW but don’t model it. As a PNW resident who leaves his car outside, however, I think a final wash of moss green would be appropriate for freight cars that spend a lot of time here.
Re: Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

Chuck Cover
 

I agree with Jim 100%, that the color you choose to paint a freight car does NOT have to be an exact match to the original paint of the prototype.  We all weather our models, and between the original FCC and the weathering,…….this will represent how we want others to view our work.  I am always amazed at how much time we all spend discussing the exact color to paint a specific freight car model.  The look of every prototype car varies depending upon where the car has traveled and the time since it was originally painted.  Unless you are modeling cars as they come out of the paint shop, there is no need to exactly match the prototype color, if you can even figure out what that was.

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM
SANTA FE REFER COLORS

WILLIAM PARDIE
 



My philosophy on the proper color for Santa Fe refers coincides with Steve’s In that it is probably more important to settle on a consistent color for our fleet as opposed to having an exact, out of the shop color for the cars.  In this discussion there doesn’t seem to be any one color that everyone agrees on.
For those of us who have Santa Fe refer. Blocks the consist is made up on Longs/Intermountain, Intermountain/China and possibly CB&T factory painted cars as well as Sunshine and RCW resin cars.  The different runs of the Intermountain cars were not always consistent. Above are two Sunshine cars and an Intermountain car all lightly weathered.  I’m sure that someone can tell me that they are too orange or too yellow, but I am p;leased with the result.

I appreciate the search for accuracy on this list.  I tend to spend an enormous amount of time when doing a model to insure that it has the proper running board, brake step, brake appliances, trucks and other nitty gritty that most won’t notice on a finished model. Some of these disappear with paint and weathering.  It is, however, what I expect to see. The important thing is that we are all content with our product.

Bill Pardie
Re: Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

Jim Betz
 

  ... and a different number series - so I'm thinking it was painted a different
      base color.  And appears to be much cleaner - as in probably painted
      more recently than the car in the middle?
                                                                                          - Jim in the PNW
Re: Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

Paul Doggett
 

Steve 

The car to the right is very orange 🤔

Paul Doggett 


On 16 Sep 2022, at 19:32, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:



What color would you paint this? Note there are two SFRD reefers in this photo. Jim’s statement is well taken.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 1:23 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

 

Hi all,

  Since I weather -everything- I don't fret very much about the color of
the paint and how close it is to the prototype.  Yes, of course I start
with a close match that captures the essence of the particular RR's
paint - but I'm not at all interested in getting it "perfect".

  When I weather - every car is done differently.  This one is heavier
and the next one lighter - this one has more dirt typical of the NE and
the next one has dirt representing the West coast.  Etc.
  One thing I almost always do is to hand touch up ("dry brush") on a
little paint on the details (such as ladders and grabs and couplers)
that is a few shades off of body color behind it ... to make the
details show up better.
  My final touch is to add what I call a "dusting coat" of a very thin
weathering color (not the same one on every car or group of cars).  And
after that, as needed, a dull coat to both lock everything done before
and to eliminate the shine of "newly painted".

  These are my methods.  YMMV.                        - Jim in the PNW

P.S. Since I'm now modeling the PNW - the shades of weathering colors are
     a little bit different than they were when I lived in Cowafornicatia -
     but only a little.  Darker/less "dusty".  I have decided to -not- model
     "one of the many days of rain" but rather to represent the sunny/partly
     cloudy days ... of which we have many.  *G*  The skies up here are
     simply amazing - think Dutch Masters and you pretty much have it.  Since
     my backdrops will be photos of the actual places - I'm also going to use
     cloud formations from the actual places.  Obvious - but still important.

Attachments:
Re: Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

Steve SANDIFER
 

What color would you paint this? Note there are two SFRD reefers in this photo. Jim’s statement is well taken.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 1:23 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

 

Hi all,

  Since I weather -everything- I don't fret very much about the color of
the paint and how close it is to the prototype.  Yes, of course I start
with a close match that captures the essence of the particular RR's
paint - but I'm not at all interested in getting it "perfect".

  When I weather - every car is done differently.  This one is heavier
and the next one lighter - this one has more dirt typical of the NE and
the next one has dirt representing the West coast.  Etc.
  One thing I almost always do is to hand touch up ("dry brush") on a
little paint on the details (such as ladders and grabs and couplers)
that is a few shades off of body color behind it ... to make the
details show up better.
  My final touch is to add what I call a "dusting coat" of a very thin
weathering color (not the same one on every car or group of cars).  And
after that, as needed, a dull coat to both lock everything done before
and to eliminate the shine of "newly painted".

  These are my methods.  YMMV.                        - Jim in the PNW

P.S. Since I'm now modeling the PNW - the shades of weathering colors are
     a little bit different than they were when I lived in Cowafornicatia -
     but only a little.  Darker/less "dusty".  I have decided to -not- model
     "one of the many days of rain" but rather to represent the sunny/partly
     cloudy days ... of which we have many.  *G*  The skies up here are
     simply amazing - think Dutch Masters and you pretty much have it.  Since
     my backdrops will be photos of the actual places - I'm also going to use
     cloud formations from the actual places.  Obvious - but still important.

Paint Colors - was Re: SFRD

Jim Betz
 

Hi all,

  Since I weather -everything- I don't fret very much about the color of
the paint and how close it is to the prototype.  Yes, of course I start
with a close match that captures the essence of the particular RR's
paint - but I'm not at all interested in getting it "perfect".

  When I weather - every car is done differently.  This one is heavier
and the next one lighter - this one has more dirt typical of the NE and
the next one has dirt representing the West coast.  Etc.
  One thing I almost always do is to hand touch up ("dry brush") on a
little paint on the details (such as ladders and grabs and couplers)
that is a few shades off of body color behind it ... to make the
details show up better.
  My final touch is to add what I call a "dusting coat" of a very thin
weathering color (not the same one on every car or group of cars).  And
after that, as needed, a dull coat to both lock everything done before
and to eliminate the shine of "newly painted".

  These are my methods.  YMMV.                        - Jim in the PNW

P.S. Since I'm now modeling the PNW - the shades of weathering colors are
     a little bit different than they were when I lived in Cowafornicatia -
     but only a little.  Darker/less "dusty".  I have decided to -not- model
     "one of the many days of rain" but rather to represent the sunny/partly
     cloudy days ... of which we have many.  *G*  The skies up here are
     simply amazing - think Dutch Masters and you pretty much have it.  Since
     my backdrops will be photos of the actual places - I'm also going to use
     cloud formations from the actual places.  Obvious - but still important.
Re: Alton and RI boxcars

Nelson Moyer
 

Good question. I don’t recall a discussion of weathering steel running boards. I don’t know what a roof walk is. Sounds like somebody out for a Sunday stroll on the roof.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 1:14 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Alton and RI boxcars

 

Charlie,

 

Why does the wooden roofwalk appear to be the same color as the metal roof?

 

Regards,

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Charlie Duckworth via groups.io <Worth51@...>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 8:00 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] Alton and RI boxcars

 

CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

I was enlarging this image on my phone and it’s pretty evident that the Alton boxcar’s radial roof is unpainted galvanized steel and the panel caps are also unpainted (note how shiny they are in the sunlight). 


--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.
Re: Alton and RI boxcars

Bruce Smith
 

Charlie,

Why does the wooden roofwalk appear to be the same color as the metal roof?

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Charlie Duckworth via groups.io <Worth51@...>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 8:00 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] [RealSTMFC] Alton and RI boxcars
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.

I was enlarging this image on my phone and it’s pretty evident that the Alton boxcar’s radial roof is unpainted galvanized steel and the panel caps are also unpainted (note how shiny they are in the sunlight). 


--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.
Re: SFRD

Bruce Smith
 

Tony's comments are spot on. Paint pigments are not UV-stable long term and so the fading seen in steam era freight cars is in large part due to the action of sunlight on the pigments (yes, there is also oxidation of the carriers, which, btw, are not always a "clear matrix", but can in fact contribute their own color to the paint. In addition, pigment molecules exposed to the oxygen in air will oxidize, particularly as any protective coating from the paint begins to break down

Since fading due to UV is due to sunlight, and sunlight is part of the weather, this fading is, imho "weathering". Now, just like the saying "all newts are salamanders, but not all salamanders are newts", fading is weathering, but not all weathering is fading.

Taking into account the fading of paint when considering the overall weathering of a model or prototype care is an important component to understanding why the car appears as it does.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2022 10:52 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] SFRD
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
I think Randy overstated the stability of pigments. The UV in sunlight DOES change pigments.
Tony Thompson 


On Sep 16, 2022, at 8:29 AM, Randy Hees <randyhees@...> wrote:



I think that Nelson has described the difference between weathering and fading pretty well, with one cravat… If “fading” is the loss of color, this really isn’t what happens to the paints used by railroads.  Paint is at its simplest, pigment held in place by a clear matrix.  The pigments don’t loose color, but as the matrix fails, it (the matrix, independent of any pigment) forms a cloudy film, which makes the paint look less colorful, and more grey.  In some cases some of the pigment is released by the matrix.  This is particularly true of white lead paints used for lettering on cars, and that white lead will wash down the side of the car below the lettering.

If you simply wipe weathered paint with a wet cloth you will while it is still wet, the original color.  Historically, passenger cars were regularly varnished, to keep them looking bright, shiny and fresh.

Randy Hees
4541 - 4560 of 199739