Date   

Re: Some Thoughts On Resin Kit Stashes

Tim O'Connor
 


Martin was a great manufacturer and marketer and the Naperville RPM was just a stroke of genius!
But Al Westerfield was well established before Martin began Sunshine. Remember Westerfield primarily
did true "steam era" models (and modernized versions) while Sunshine hit the "sweet spot" of the
transition era. And there were other resin vendors too, also before Sunshine. (And today I think the
"sweet spot" has shifted.)

But Martin's huge high quality selection was also a product of Frank Hodina and Charles Slater and other
master model makers, plus resin molding experts like Tom Madden, and many freight car experts.

Really the era 1980 to about 2010 was just a "perfect storm" of information sharing, new resin technology,
digital technologies, cheap airfares (hahaha), China trade, and lots of baby boomers !!

RPM (and Naperville) also "spawned" a whole generation of model companies mostly run by the post-baby
boom generation and the sheer numbers of accurate models we have seen is mind boggling. Many thousands
of models!!

But I don't regret buying excess models. I wanted to support Martin's business because even when it began
I thought -- this won't last! But I knew the models would last. :-)



On 7/15/2022 3:41 PM, Paul Doggett via groups.io wrote:

We definitely owe Martin an awful lot for what he did for our hobby.
Paul Doggett.



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: IC 161722 Chcago, 1940's

Tim O'Connor
 


Gad. Forgot the photo.


On 7/16/2022 10:22 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


IC 41464 from the Gerstley collection circa 1958


On 7/15/2022 11:49 PM, Guy Wilber via groups.io wrote:
Jeffrey White wrote:

"According to the car diagram in the IC 1954 freight car diagram book the cars were built by GATC in East Chicago IN in 1937 so the photo could be a delivery photo.  161501 - 161700 had auto loaders and 161701 - 162300 no auto loaders.  At some point (the diagram sheet doesn't give a date) they were renumbered to 44000 - 44199 (auto loaders) and 41000 - 41599 (no auto loaders)."

Jeffrey,

ORER information that will help you with the renumbering.  The renumbering of the 161501-161700 cars may have commenced prior to April of 1940.  The 161701-162300 series renumbering occurred between January of 1941 and January of 1943.  I don't have ORERs to fill in the blanks. 

April ~1939

XAR 161501 - 161700  200@
XA    161701 - 162300  600@

April ~ 1940

XAR  44000 -  44099 (Noted as increase)
                                                                   } 200@
         161501 - 161700
XA     161701 - 162300  600@

January ~ 1941

XAR  44000 - 44099
                                         } 200@
         161501 - 161700
XA    161701 - 162300

January ~ 1943 

XAR  44000 - 44199  199@
XA     41000 - 41599  598@

Guy Wilber


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: IC 161722 Chcago, 1940's

Tim O'Connor
 


IC 41464 from the Gerstley collection circa 1958


On 7/15/2022 11:49 PM, Guy Wilber via groups.io wrote:

Jeffrey White wrote:

"According to the car diagram in the IC 1954 freight car diagram book the cars were built by GATC in East Chicago IN in 1937 so the photo could be a delivery photo.  161501 - 161700 had auto loaders and 161701 - 162300 no auto loaders.  At some point (the diagram sheet doesn't give a date) they were renumbered to 44000 - 44199 (auto loaders) and 41000 - 41599 (no auto loaders)."

Jeffrey,

ORER information that will help you with the renumbering.  The renumbering of the 161501-161700 cars may have commenced prior to April of 1940.  The 161701-162300 series renumbering occurred between January of 1941 and January of 1943.  I don't have ORERs to fill in the blanks. 

April ~1939

XAR 161501 - 161700  200@
XA    161701 - 162300  600@

April ~ 1940

XAR  44000 -  44099 (Noted as increase)
                                                                   } 200@
         161501 - 161700
XA     161701 - 162300  600@

January ~ 1941

XAR  44000 - 44099
                                         } 200@
         161501 - 161700
XA    161701 - 162300

January ~ 1943 

XAR  44000 - 44199  199@
XA     41000 - 41599  598@

Guy Wilber


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Photo: PRR Boxcar 570062 (1941)

Bruce Smith
 

Guy,

An excellent question! The last batch of X29s built, post 1930, were built with experimental AB braked with a transverse mounted reservoir. When these were upgraded to the more conventional AB brakes, by and large they retained the transverse mounting. However, when the pre-1930 production cars were upgraded to AB brakes from KD, they received longitudinally mounted reservoirs. So, in reality, the longitudinal reservoir marks the car as NOT post 1930 construction (so either the 1st or 2nd batch, not the 3rd), but in combination with the other details confirms that the car is from the 1st batch. 

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Guy Wilber via groups.io <guycwilber@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2022 8:33 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Boxcar 570062 (1941)
 
CAUTION: Email Originated Outside of Auburn.
Bruce Smith wrote:

“Notable features include the short upper door track, 1/3 and 2/3 height door stops, car builder’s doors, plate ends, Carmer uncoupling devices, longitudinal AB reservoir
These all mark it as from the 1st production batch circa 1926."

How does a longitudinally mounted "AB” brake reservoir help mark a car built in 1926 which would not have been built with an “AB” brake system?

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada 




Re: Photo: PRR Boxcar 570062 (1941)

Guy Wilber
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

“Notable features include the short upper door track, 1/3 and 2/3 height door stops, car builder’s doors, plate ends, Carmer uncoupling devices, longitudinal AB reservoir
These all mark it as from the 1st production batch circa 1926."

How does a longitudinally mounted "AB” brake reservoir help mark a car built in 1926 which would not have been built with an “AB” brake system?

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada 




Re: Accurail single sheathed box cars (was CNJ 12000 series)

Paul Doggett
 


Clark 

An excellent model 

Paul Doggett 

On 15 Jul 2022, at 22:39, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Nicely done, Clark. Who’s decals did you use?
Fenton 


On Jul 15, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Clark Propst via groups.io <cepropst@...> wrote:

Finished the Milwaukee car by adding the remaining decals, then primsacolor pencils and Pan Pastels, finally another coat of clear Dullcote.

Waiting for Black Cat decals to finish the CN model.
Clark MILW 11a.jpgMILW 11b.jpg


Re: IC 161722 Chcago, 1940's

Guy Wilber
 

Jeffrey White wrote:

"According to the car diagram in the IC 1954 freight car diagram book the cars were built by GATC in East Chicago IN in 1937 so the photo could be a delivery photo.  161501 - 161700 had auto loaders and 161701 - 162300 no auto loaders.  At some point (the diagram sheet doesn't give a date) they were renumbered to 44000 - 44199 (auto loaders) and 41000 - 41599 (no auto loaders)."

Jeffrey,

ORER information that will help you with the renumbering.  The renumbering of the 161501-161700 cars may have commenced prior to April of 1940.  The 161701-162300 series renumbering occurred between January of 1941 and January of 1943.  I don't have ORERs to fill in the blanks. 

April ~1939

XAR 161501 - 161700  200@
XA    161701 - 162300  600@

April ~ 1940

XAR  44000 -  44099 (Noted as increase)
                                                                   } 200@
         161501 - 161700
XA     161701 - 162300  600@

January ~ 1941

XAR  44000 - 44099
                                         } 200@
         161501 - 161700
XA    161701 - 162300

January ~ 1943 

XAR  44000 - 44199  199@
XA     41000 - 41599  598@

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


_._,_.1,_


Re: 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 03:18 PM, Richard Townsend wrote:
Pure, uninformed speculation: Could it also have to do with the thickness of the steel used in the various door panels, similar to what was done with car ends? For example, could the bottom panel of the door been of a heavier gauge steel, with the different panel heights depending on how high the car owner wanted the heavier gauge steel to extend?
Speculation, yes, but I tend to doubt that by this point in time the railroads specified the details of the vendor supplied products... they would order what the vendor offered. Anything else would be a 'special' with the higher cost that would entail. That's not saying Youngstown didn't decide to put the larger panel on the bottom for just this reason, either on their own or at the prompting of one or more customers, but it appears that once the change was made it became the new 'standard'. Does anyone know if the bottom panel actually was heavier gauge steel? I don't have easy access to any YSDCo. drawings.

Dennis Storzek


Re: 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard

It's a thought ! As forklifts came into use, workers began using them to open the doors! By the
1960's it was causing so much damage that they added special brackets to the doors placed there
for the forklifts to use!


On 7/15/2022 6:18 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io wrote:

Pure, uninformed speculation: Could it also have to do with the thickness of the steel used in the various door panels, similar to what was done with car ends? For example, could the bottom panel of the door been of a heavier gauge steel, with the different panel heights depending on how high the car owner wanted the heavier gauge steel to extend?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Jul 15, 2022 1:08 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM, hubert mask wrote:
Usually door variations were determined by satisfying the shipper’s needs for loading and unloading at consignee .  It’s my thinking that is why there no door one size fits all.
Just my thinking. 
Yeah but... we're not talking about the size of the door here, but rather the relative size of the panels that make up the door. It's easy to see why the stamped steel ends on the USRA cars were three panels; the cars were five inches taller than what came before, and likely two panels would exceed the size of the available stamping presses, especially on short notice. But these doors used different combinations of panels at different times. I suspect the answer lies in what other doors the three panels were also used in, and which panel (top, middle, or bottom) was easiest to build a tool for, considering the low production anticipated after the AAR standard went to 10'-6" IH.

Dennis Storzek


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


New kits from Yarmouth Model Works

Pierre Oliver
 

https://elgincarshops.blogspot.com/2022/07/ready-for-st-louis-rpm.html

--
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com


UTLX Class X Tank Car Build

Nelson Moyer
 

I finished the build on RCW 7.02 UTLX Class X 6,000 gallon tank car this afternoon. It’s the last resin kit in my stash, so it’s a milestone of sorts. When I purposed to build the stash, there were 48 kits, and it took a little over two years to build them.

 

This kit was a challenge, because as I reported in earlier posts on the resincarbuilders io group. The bottom tank course was too high as a result of using an Intermountain bottom course as the master. This pushed up the running boards and handrails. I determined to build the kit as close to prototype as I could, using prototype drawings provided by Steve Hile. The details for lowering the running board and handrail are in the earlier posts. I used Archer rivets to restore the bottom course line, and to repair the vertical rivets sanded off while filling the cast drilling dimples of the running board. The tank detail photos posted herein show the extent of the tank error, as the original course line is visible under the running board detail photos. The B end right side sill step had a casting flaw where the grab iron rung was open. I cut off the remanent, and glued a piece of 0.0125 in . wire to replace the missing rung.

 

The B end uncoupling lever got flipped up while I was staging the car for photography, and I’ll move it back down and glue it in place before blasting and priming.

 

I saved the five tank cars for last, and I’m glad I did, because they were the most difficult of all the resin kits I’ve built.  I attached a photo of those last five cars.

 

I very rarely cross post, but I decided to share this last resin build with a larger audience. I included my build notes for those of you who have this car in your stash.

 

Nelson Moyer

 


Re: Accurail single sheathed box cars (was CNJ 12000 series)

Clark Propst
 

Who’s decals did you use?

Fenton
 
I mostly used a decal set Stan Rydarowicz commissioned Mark Vaughan to make. It contains  a set for CTH&S? 4 bay hopper and MILW ‘beer cars’ Now sold by Gary Roe. Also used scrap decals for the reweigh/repack, NSC chalk marks and old Champ stripping for route cards.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

Richard Townsend
 

Pure, uninformed speculation: Could it also have to do with the thickness of the steel used in the various door panels, similar to what was done with car ends? For example, could the bottom panel of the door been of a heavier gauge steel, with the different panel heights depending on how high the car owner wanted the heavier gauge steel to extend?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Jul 15, 2022 1:08 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM, hubert mask wrote:
Usually door variations were determined by satisfying the shipper’s needs for loading and unloading at consignee .  It’s my thinking that is why there no door one size fits all.
Just my thinking. 
Yeah but... we're not talking about the size of the door here, but rather the relative size of the panels that make up the door. It's easy to see why the stamped steel ends on the USRA cars were three panels; the cars were five inches taller than what came before, and likely two panels would exceed the size of the available stamping presses, especially on short notice. But these doors used different combinations of panels at different times. I suspect the answer lies in what other doors the three panels were also used in, and which panel (top, middle, or bottom) was easiest to build a tool for, considering the low production anticipated after the AAR standard went to 10'-6" IH.

Dennis Storzek
 


Re: Accurail single sheathed box cars (was CNJ 12000 series)

O Fenton Wells
 

Nicely done, Clark. Who’s decals did you use?
Fenton 


On Jul 15, 2022, at 5:03 PM, Clark Propst via groups.io <cepropst@...> wrote:

Finished the Milwaukee car by adding the remaining decals, then primsacolor pencils and Pan Pastels, finally another coat of clear Dullcote.

Waiting for Black Cat decals to finish the CN model.
Clark MILW 11a.jpgMILW 11b.jpg


Re: Accurail single sheathed box cars (was CNJ 12000 series)

Charlie Duckworth
 

Clark
This came out extremely well. Nice job. 

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 4:03 PM Clark Propst via groups.io <cepropst=q.com_at_groups.io_Worth51@...> wrote:
Finished the Milwaukee car by adding the remaining decals, then primsacolor pencils and Pan Pastels, finally another coat of clear Dullcote. Waiting for Black Cat decals to finish the CN model.Clark A
Finished the Milwaukee car by adding the remaining decals, then primsacolor pencils and Pan Pastels, finally another coat of clear Dullcote.

Waiting for Black Cat decals to finish the CN model.
Clark

Attachments:


--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: Accurail single sheathed box cars (was CNJ 12000 series)

Clark Propst
 

Finished the Milwaukee car by adding the remaining decals, then primsacolor pencils and Pan Pastels, finally another coat of clear Dullcote.

Waiting for Black Cat decals to finish the CN model.
Clark


Re: Some Thoughts On Resin Kit Stashes

Chuck Cover
 

Thanks Bill, well stated.  Many in this hobby are collectors rather than builders, which is ideal for those who design and sell the resin kits.  If the only kits sold were those which were immediately built, I do not believe that there would have been enough income to sustain the resin kit manufacturers. 

 

So I am grateful for all of those model railroad collectors out there whose passion was collecting kits, brass engines, and other model railroad stuff.  We are now seeing sales of some of this collected equipment which will give all of us an opportunity to find those kits what we have been searching for so we can complete our layouts and freight car rosters.

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Youngstown Door Nomenclature

Andy Carlson
 



2nd send:

BACK in 2017 I sent this message. It may be of some help today.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Hello-

Two years ago I was inspired from a post by Bill Welch. I answered with a short description of the various Youngstown doors. I was asked for photos and today I added illustrations of the common Youngstown steel doors (YSD). No mention is made of door appliances (hardware such as latches) which is a story by itself. Corrections are encouraged.


From 2017...............

 
Hi, I would like to jump in here with some thoughts.

Bill Welch, an historian as much as a modeler, has questions identifying doors from the Youngstown door co. produced during our era of interest. He is not alone.

As in most other components used on steam era freight cars, door manufacturers simply offered product for applications by width/height. Small changes were often running changes when an improvement made its way into production. Even so,there were three very distinct styles of Youngstown doors made in our favorite era.

Authors, modelers and tool makers need to be able communicate the ID of the various doors to clear confusion. Similar to how modelers issued "phases" for EMD's F unit line of locomotives (Something EMD never did) to communicate and make sense of the various deviations over time, Youngstown doors have had modeler's IDs applied. Unfortunately, standards have not yet been agreed upon; so confusion is not avoided; such as Bill Welch's.

Simple code initials (such as Y2-A) work well for large tables (such as Ed Hawkins' great freight car summaries) where the reader can refer to the bottom of the table to a more verbose description. However, simply identifying a door in an article as a "Y2-A" isn't helpful to 99% of the readers outside of these tables. We need a nomenclature which is intuitive, brief, understandable and made a standard.

I propose following Dan Hall's method to id'ing Youngstown doors. Dan makes various Youngstown and superior doors for HO in his Southwest Scale Models' line.

Pre-war Youngstown doors were typically made of 3 (sometimes 4) pressed steel sheets riveted together to make the size sufficient to cover the door openings. The riveted joints were in the flat area of the sheet recessed towards the inside of the car. Each section has ribs stamped into it which forms rectangular panels which are very easily spotted and counted from even lesser quality photos.

A typical Youngstown door on a 1937 AAR box will have , counting from top-to-bottom a 5/6/5 pattern of panels. To accommodate differing heights, the door maker simply uses taller sheets for the top and bottom sheets so the adjustment of height is made in the joint area. For a pre-war Youngstown door, this feature is noticable and should be addressed. At a minimum, the riveted joint sections produce a panel which is nearly identical in dimensions as the 5/6/5 panels themselves. Being the shortest variant, I call these -S (for short). A taller door will have the joint panel somewhat taller than the standard panels, so I label these as -M (for medium). The tallest Youngstown door's joint panels are almost twice the height of the regular panels. If the door needs to be even taller for its application, the maker will simply add more panels (though in the pre-war time, doors would more likely have LESS panels for inside height cars lower than the AAR '37). The taller joint panel doors would have a -T ( for tall) to cover the door openings for a 10'6" IH car <pre-war 5/6/5-T>.

          A 1937 AAR pre-war Youngstown 5/6/5-S (The S need not be attached as it is obvious)

Inline image


          A Youngstown 5/6/5-T door on a single sheathed box car

Inline image


Examples:  A '37 AAR boxcar would typically be 6' pre-war 5/6/5-S Youngstown Steel door. Simplified to <Pre-war 5/6/5 YSD> (the "S" could be left off as it could be inferred that the most common variant is the 'S'. A 10'6" IH AAR box car would have a taller door opening and the most common door for these cars was the <pre-war 5/6/5-T>. Fewer doors were built with the 'M' spacing.

1947 saw the introduction of the improved Youngstown door. Lessons learned from more than a decade of production of the pre-war versions allowed a redesign which was very noticeable. Changes to the perimeter frame area strengthened the door. To accommodate these changes, the joint section was substantially changed. Now it was more like a crimped joint and no longer would the joint area be where slight variances in height would be achieved. From then on the height differences would be totally from the addition or subtraction of panels, and to a lesser degree, variations in the perimeter frame.

Most AAR box cars built at this time were to the 10'6" inside height. For about one year, this new door had a panel count of 6/6/5. After this brief period, the doors were made with 5/6/6 panels, and continued for decades with little changes. Since the joint sections were un-changing, no 'S' 'M' or 'T' appellations were necessary. A typical door for a 10'6" car would be <5/6/6 Improved YSD>.

    Single year (1946/47) offering of the "upside down" 6/6/5 Improved Youngstown door

Inline image


     A 5/6/6 Improved Youngstown steel door (Late 1947 and on)

Inline image

Youngstown steel improved doors for 10'0" nominal height cars were common in two variations; a 4/6/6 and a 5/6/5



Before this big change, around 1946, both Southern Pacific and the Santa Fe received Youngstown doors which shared techniques of both designs. Dan Hall, like nearly everyone else, labels these doors as "Interim-Improved". The SP door was <5/5/5 interim-improved YSD>. The Santa Fe's 10'6" IH doors were <5/6/5 interiom-improved YSD>. These SP doors gained a lot of notoriety as the doors used on the fleet of "Overnight" express box cars.

Inline image

After the time of interest to our audience, Youngstown continued to get orders for doors in ever increasing widths. For awhile, the largest width was an eight foot wide door. When orders for a 9' door came, the order was met with the stamping of the 8' doors with a 6 inch wide perimeter frame. This was soon dropped as stampings with full 9' width were then produced. Later still, orders for 10' doors came in and these orders were initially met with the 6" perimeter frame added to the new 9' stamping.


Inline image



The most common YSD doors from 1937 to 1948:
pre-war5/6/5-S YSD  (Red Caboose & Intermountain in HO)
pre-war5/6/5-T YSD for mostly 10'6" cars  (Intermountain in HO)
Interim-Improved 5/5/5 YSD (SP 1946-Southwest Scale Models in HO)
Interim-Improved 5/6/5 YSD (ATSF Bx-44 1946-Southwest Scale Models in HO)
Improved 6/6/5 YSD (1947 mostly) (CB&T shops & Southwest Scale Models in HO)
Improved 5/6/6 YSD 1948 and on (Kadee, Red Caboose, Branchline, Intermountain in HO)

Regards,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

.

__,_._,___





Re: 7' wide 10' IH Youngstown door for CRP XM-4

Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
 

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:45 PM, hubert mask wrote:
Usually door variations were determined by satisfying the shipper’s needs for loading and unloading at consignee .  It’s my thinking that is why there no door one size fits all.
Just my thinking. 
Yeah but... we're not talking about the size of the door here, but rather the relative size of the panels that make up the door. It's easy to see why the stamped steel ends on the USRA cars were three panels; the cars were five inches taller than what came before, and likely two panels would exceed the size of the available stamping presses, especially on short notice. But these doors used different combinations of panels at different times. I suspect the answer lies in what other doors the three panels were also used in, and which panel (top, middle, or bottom) was easiest to build a tool for, considering the low production anticipated after the AAR standard went to 10'-6" IH.

Dennis Storzek
 


Re: Some Thoughts On Resin Kit Stashes

Pierre Oliver
 

Minions, HA!

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 7/15/22 3:41 p.m., Matt Smith wrote:

Bill,

As a newcomer to prototype modeling/resin, I appreciate that many people bought kits they "might" be interested in. This helped ensure the viability of these projects and spurred Martin to keep producing. As I've come to appreciate many folks are willing to sell/trade kits that no longer suit their interests. Kudos to Frank, Andrew, Ted, Pierre, Ryan, Greg and all their minions/friends that continue make it possible.
--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL

4661 - 4680 of 198533