|
Re: Popular vote- was Iron Modeler competition?
Charlie Vlk
Nelson-
I’ve voted in BRHS popular vote contests and the “Cute” factor doesn’t enter into the equation. While you are correct that there are many BRHS members who are or have a former employee in their lineage, have a historical interest in the railroad, or don’t bring models to the meets, I think their interest in the Burlington Route is the primary criteria that the attendees base their vote on.
I am not trying to award a model that has the most work put into it, not even the one with the best craftsmanship. Those factor into my decision but it isn’t like I am mentally totaling up points that are weighted. However, I have passed voting for an entry that was a neat idea but had sloppy craftsmanship or deviated too much from the prototype it was supposed to represent.
I will vote for whatever tickles my fancy….as long it is a prototypical Burlington subject. I am not going to vote for a stock model, factory, custom or owner painted, brass or plastic, unless it has such a good modeler paint job on it or weathering that it blows me away. I admit I will give more consideration to an N Scale model since I know what has to be done to produce a model in 1/160 but it ought to be an example that good modeling can be done in N!
I also will not vote for a model that is crap even if it is the only one in the category….I cringe when there are such single entries and they get First Place! In that case an entry probably should get a majority of the number of ballots submitted to get recognition to uphold the purpose of the contest.
I don’t recall seeing your BA-19; it may have been at a meet that I missed. I likely would have been considering it for my vote as you know I like the prototype…but if I did see it there may have been something in that category that I liked better….or I may actually have voted for it and you just didn’t get enough votes to win.
I agree that awarding Best In Show to a stock factory painted or custom painted item is wrong and I would support a provision that models have to be worked over to be entered…at least weathered by the owner. It is not fair to gather awards for a factory’s work or a custom painter.
I don’t recall if the BRHS entries are identified as to who the model belongs to…if so, that is another thing that ought to be fixed.
Is it possible that perhaps your thought that your entry should have received Best In Show may have put an edge on your recommendation?
I am copying my reply and your email to the BRHS List as I think the society leadership should be aware of this conversation.
Charlie Vlk
Thu 1/13/2022 7:51 PM main@RealSTMFC.groups.io on behalf of; Nelson Moyer npmoyer@... Re: [RealSTMFC] Popular vote- was Iron Modeler competition?
I agree with Tony, with popular vote, the ‘cute’ factor outweighs any amount of originality and craftsmanship, especially when many of the voters are railfans without a clue about what it takes to scratchbuilt a prizewinning model.
Case in point. The Burlington Historical Society holds a model contest at their annual meeting in the fall. Contest rules break models into categories much like NMRA, there is no judging, just a popular vote on each category and best of show. A relatively small percentage of the membership are modelers, and a small fraction of those modelers scratchbuild. I entered a scratchbuilt BA-19 with shaddowline decal artwork I drew in Corel Draw and printed myself. I didn’t even take first in the passenger car category, much less best of show. The models that beat me were commercial RTR models, and the model winning best of show was a factory built and painted brass steam locomotive. After the meet I politely suggested that perhaps it was time to review the contest rules in the interest of rewarding scratchbuilding blood, sweat, and tears. I was summarily ignored. I don’t attend many BRHS meets any more, and when I do, I don’t bother to enter models in the popular vote they call a contest.
Nelson Moyer
|
|
|
|
Train On The San Francisco Embarcadero (1935)
Train On The San Francisco Embarcadero (1935) A photo from the San Francisco Public Library. A variety of freight cars. Two unidentified SFRD reefers. Last car appears to be an end-door SP automobile boxcar with something around the top and opening of the end door. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
|
|
|
|
Re: Cocoa Beach 2022
Dick Harley
A full west coast strictly RPM meet would be a great addition. It would be nice if BAPM could add more clinics to fill out the day. Hotel rates are going to be a big budget item for all this year and in the future. Shortage of services staff is just part of the reason. Personally, I have two other groups that are having convention style meetings with hotels this year. Fortunately both are drivable. (SPH&TS and NMRA Pacific Coast Region). But then on the west coast we seem to be more tolerant of driving fairly long distances. I have driven from the SF Bay area to Portland and Seattle (790 miles) for family and events. The same with LA (360 miles by I-5). it's a bit of a literal PITA these days but I-5 is embedded in my memory. Even at a fuel cost of $5 per gallon it is less than the current price of flying and then renting a car at the destination. -- Ken Adams Omicron may come and go but I still live in splendid Shelter In Place solitude Location: About half way up Walnut Creek Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io
|
|
|
|
Re: BMX 801. What’s the background on this car?
What a cool truck!
A boiler A locomotive air compressor. A spraying rig like the ones I've seen on later such trucks. And a tank of tar. Tom E.
|
|
|
|
Re: BMX 801. What’s the background on this car?
Dave Parker
Barrett started as a roofing company in 1854; the road paving side of the business actually came some 50 years later. They also became a pretty diversified specialty chemical company, with a number of products all derived from coal tar. In 1920, Barrett joined with four other companies to form the foundation of Allied Chemical.
If you are on the Hindsight 2020 group, there is a handout in the Files from my January 2021 clinic on Barrett that provides more detail and some references. -- Dave Parker Swall Meadows, CA
|
|
|
|
Re: BMX 801. What’s the background on this car?
Charles Greene
Maybe related, at least to the contents of the car, is the fact that Barrett made a substance named Tarvia which was used to pave roads. Could have been used, perhaps in modified form, to soak felt for roofing applications, e.g. railroad structures such as shops and roundhouses? I've attached a photo of a truck used to spread Tarvia.
-Chuck Greene
|
|
|
|
Re: Popular vote- was Iron Modeler competition?
Nelson Moyer
At least your BOD realized and corrected the injustice. The BRHS persists in its ignorance.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 8:40 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Popular vote- was Iron Modeler competition?
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 05:51 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:
That exactly mirrors my experience with the popular vote contest at the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society annual convention. It's really disheartening to see scratch-built or kit-bashed models aced out by an O scale custom painted
brass Diesel locomotive, but I've seen it happen, repeatedly. I remember one year, ages ago, when someone entered a completely scratch-built O scale bulk carrier lake freighter (from the years early in the twentieth century when the Soo Line had a lake shipping
subsidiary). The model must have been over five feet long and had fully detailed interior of all the crew spaces. It didn't win a thing. This was so shocking that the BOD got together and created a "best of show" award on the spot, so we could recognize the
model, and its builder, at the awards ceremony.
|
|
|
|
Re: Popular vote- was Iron Modeler competition?
Dennis Storzek <dennis@...>
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 05:51 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:
I agree with Tony, with popular vote, the ‘cute’ factor outweighs any amount of originality and craftsmanship, especially when many of the voters are railfans without a clue about what it takes to scratchbuilt a prizewinning model.That exactly mirrors my experience with the popular vote contest at the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society annual convention. It's really disheartening to see scratch-built or kit-bashed models aced out by an O scale custom painted brass Diesel locomotive, but I've seen it happen, repeatedly. I remember one year, ages ago, when someone entered a completely scratch-built O scale bulk carrier lake freighter (from the years early in the twentieth century when the Soo Line had a lake shipping subsidiary). The model must have been over five feet long and had fully detailed interior of all the crew spaces. It didn't win a thing. This was so shocking that the BOD got together and created a "best of show" award on the spot, so we could recognize the model, and its builder, at the awards ceremony. Dennis Storzek
|
|
|
|
Re: Cocoa Beach 2022
Naperville IL is very close to one major airport (Midway) and one humongous airport (O'Hare). And it's on the Amtrak mainline for most west coast trains from Chicago. And there are interstates that converge nearby from all points of the compass. The RPM meet in Collinsville IL in June is hands down the largest RPM meet in the USA, these days. The model displays are prolific and amazing. All eras and all scales. I missed 2020 & 2021 but went twice before then. It's only a month apart from the relocated "Chicagoland" RPM in Indianapolis.
On 1/13/2022 7:59 PM, Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek wrote:
--
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
|
|
|
|
Re: Popular vote- was Iron Modeler competition?
Nelson Moyer
I agree with Tony, with popular vote, the ‘cute’ factor outweighs any amount of originality and craftsmanship, especially when many of the voters are railfans without a clue about what it takes to scratchbuilt a prizewinning model.
Case in point. The Burlington Historical Society holds a model contest at their annual meeting in the fall. Contest rules break models into categories much like NMRA, there is no judging, just a popular vote on each category and best of show. A relatively small percentage of the membership are modelers, and a small fraction of those modelers scratchbuild. I entered a scratchbuilt BA-19 with shaddowline decal artwork I drew in Corel Draw and printed myself. I didn’t even take first in the passenger car category, much less best of show. The models that beat me were commercial RTR models, and the model winning best of show was a factory built and painted brass steam locomotive. After the meet I politely suggested that perhaps it was time to review the contest rules in the interest of rewarding scratchbuilding blood, sweat, and tears. I was summarily ignored. I don’t attend many BRHS meets any more, and when I do, I don’t bother to enter models in the popular vote they call a contest.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:29 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Popular vote- was Iron Modeler competition?
My observation from 15 or so years of hanging around contests is that the sure way to win a popular vote is to include figures, such as a couple of guys on a flat car, wrestling with a load. Even a happy young couple on the observation platform will do it. Great scratch building?? Great prototype accuracy?? Naw. The voters are just going for stuff that is fun to look at — or anything humorous.
Tony Thompson
|
|
|
|
Re: Was this part ever made?
Pierre Some were made in lost wax brass but they came with brass freight cars and were never sold as separate parts... I have a brass UP box car that is disassembled (a long ago ultrasonic cleaner accident), but it didn't have end doors. :-P Several early F&C resin 'kits' were actually copied directly from brass models. So there is precedent. :-D Tim
On 1/13/2022 11:18 AM, Pierre Oliver wrote:
I'm looking for the latches that would have been on end door cars in HO scale --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
|
|
|
|
Re: Cocoa Beach 2022
Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek
I do hope to attend CCB sometime, but not this year – COVID plus crazy people on airplanes.
I used to commute to our Melbourne facility (not Melbourne Beach) from John Wayne (Sanata Ana, Orange County – it has so many names) via DFW. Once I was in the rental car, it was about an hour to Melbourne. I once had to go to CCAFS (or is it CCSFS now) and stayed in CCB – 45 minutes. Since my commute was 1.5 to 2 hours, each way, each day here, those drives were a lark. And the tolls just aren’t that bad.
How many other RPMs are right next to a major airport? If not, how long a drive is it to the meet site from the airport.
And, frankly, the Space Coast is A LOT MORE pleasant in the winter than the summer. (Go ahead, ask me how I know.)
Jim van Gaasbeek Irvine, CA
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of np328
Regarding the dates chosen, and the time being a trench time in the hospitality business, I think Mike B may have posted the reasoning on this list and it agrees with Tim and Tom. The reasons certainly sound familiar in a sense.
|
|
|
|
Re: Popular vote- was Iron Modeler competition?
Which explains why the NMRA for years featured outhouses in many forms. I think they finally realized it turned off serious modelers.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Thanks! Brian Ehni (Sent from my iPhone)
On Jan 13, 2022, at 6:29 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: Popular vote- was Iron Modeler competition?
Tony Thompson
My observation from 15 or so years of hanging around contests is that the sure way to win a popular vote is to include figures, such as a couple of guys on a flat car, wrestling with a load. Even a happy young couple on the observation platform will do it. Great scratch building?? Great prototype accuracy?? Naw. The voters are just going for stuff that is fun to look at — or anything humorous.
|
|
|
|
Re: Cocoa Beach 2022
np328
Regarding the dates chosen, and the time being a trench time in the hospitality business, I think Mike B may have posted the reasoning on this list and it agrees with Tim and Tom. The reasons certainly sound familiar in a sense.
I will agree with the sentiment of coming home to face more winter, however the visit to CCB certainly makes the remainder of it more tolerable. I recall one year when a well know poster on this list from the Atlanta region (whom I do like) complained that the 60-degree temps at CCB were not much better than back at home. I and Doug Harding stated that the temps were almost a 100-degree difference than back at home for us. (tomatoes - tomahtoes.) Of the ranting about tolls - good heavens. What are the tolls - about the price of a tap beer or two at CCB? I have been to the Naperville Meets yearly since the start and almost the same to CCB. Bought a transponder for the Illinois tolls, and later a SunPass decades ago. However even having them, I have driven into both meets on roads that have no tolls many times. All it takes is a little planning. These complaints of toll costs remind me of a joke where a person goes to his doctor and says - Doc, it hurts when I do this. The doctor replies - So stop doing that! I missed it this year, missed seeing the model room and the model cars displayed, missed the presentations, and mostly missed just talking with people. James Dick - Roseville, MN
|
|
|
|
Popular vote- was Iron Modeler competition?
Andy Carlson
Charlie,
I'll have to disagree with your assertion of popular vote being an inherently better solution as I've seen this happen on a couple of occasions. The pitfall is you'll find that the larger scale models tend to win the votes regardless of the work actually put into the models that have been entered. I've seen a kitbashed HO caboose that had full underbody detailing, wire grab irons, and completely scratchbuilt fabricated wire end railings that had scored 100-points at an NMRA contest lose a popular vote contest to a stock Aristo-Craft G-scale caboose that only had a decal job applied. Who had the "better" model in that case?
-Jason P Around 20 years or so ago I attended a one-day meet in Sonora, CA. My friend brought his recently finished, nearly 100% scratch built, Westside Lumber Company narrow gauge Heisler. My friend's build quality was world class and one of his scratch built shays took 1st place steam at a National NMRA convention. This Heisler's work was an equal to his earlier shay. Popular vote Had the guy who brought two PFM geared locos take 1st and 2nd. !st place brass engine had moose antlers made from brass shim stock attached to the headlight, otherwise an as-built PFM shay. My friend wasn't as bothered about the slight it as me, but the lesson for me if someone wants to enter a judged contest, avoid a popular vote. The public's poor ability to judge built models makes any award from such contests meaningless. It is well known along the NMRA contest circuit that the savvy builders who are out for bagging awards know ways in which prototypes are selected and other tricks, such as scale size, to rack up the points for a win. -Andy Carlson Ojai CA
|
|
|
|
Re: Cocoa Beach 2022
Tom Madden
On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 03:44 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Yes. Mike said years ago that the window between the New Year's holiday and the MLK weekend was the slowest part of Florida's winter season, with very favorable hotel rates and good room availability. Gail would have preferred the meet be in the Spring too - she didn't like coming home and having to face two or three more months of winter. Tom Madden
|
|
|
|
Re: Cocoa Beach 2022
WILLIAM PARDIE
Please keep us posted Scott@ Bill Pardie Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: Scott Kremer <skremer@...> Date: 1/13/22 12:14 PM (GMT-10:00) To: "main@realstmfc.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Cocoa Beach 2022 Scott Kremer Chairman IndyJunction 2022
|
|
|
|
Re: [External] Re: [RealSTMFC] Iron Modeler competition?
Jason P
Charlie,
I'll have to disagree with your assertion of popular vote being an inherently better solution as I've seen this happen on a couple of occasions. The pitfall is you'll find that the larger scale models tend to win the votes regardless of the work actually put into the models that have been entered. I've seen a kitbashed HO caboose that had full underbody detailing, wire grab irons, and completely scratchbuilt fabricated wire end railings that had scored 100-points at an NMRA contest lose a popular vote contest to a stock Aristo-Craft G-scale caboose that only had a decal job applied. Who had the "better" model in that case?
-Jason P
|
|
|
|
Re: Cocoa Beach 2022
I always assumed it was because there are many such events on the west coast (I knew of some spectacular one day Free-Mo meets) and so it's mainly aimed at local modelers and vendors or perhaps folks from nearby states. California has a LOT of fine modelers and fine model railroads, so call it a land of plenty. :-) Chicago and St Louis are centrally located and are relatively short trips for most Americans and Canadians. And Cocoa Beach is just a very nice place to be in January compared to everywhere north of there. :-) Personally I wish CB was in March or April but I think they chose January because it's the slowest season so hotel rates are at a low point then.
On 1/13/2022 11:30 AM, Eric Hansmann wrote:
--
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
|
|
|