Date   

Re: clinic preparation insights?

Tony Thompson
 

Rob Kirkham wrote:

 

I’m busy collecting images and ORER information to present a freight car clinic.  The focus is basically a summary of the house car roster of a specific railroad in a specific era, something that has been done by others many times before

As I work through number series after number series, I can see a real mixed bag of technology (frames mostly) and the modernity of the designs goes back and forth during those years.  Details change over the life of each of the car designs.  Rebuilds happen.   There are models available for some; stand ins for others.  I’m tracking all that as far as I find it interesting.  Photos range from fantastic to grainy, faded and fuzzy.

What I am wondering is whether there is more to talk about to make such a clinic interesting to others.


Do any of you who have done (or attended) a lot of freight car roster type clinics have some pointers about what folks especially appreciated?  Dislikes? 


     Sorry for the slow reply, Rob, as I was away for the weekend. I have given a number of talks like what you describe, and here is how I would approach one. First, what is interesting about each car group (if anything)? If nothing in particular, including the possibility that it is a big group and thus of interest to modelers beyond that home road, then I would regard it as a group to briefly describe for completeness. This is where Clark Propst's suggestion of a handout comes in -- you can tell the audience that "the 32,000-series cars are in the handout," etc.
      As for interest, I focus on engineering significance (pioneering designs or interesting combinations of features), complex history such as rebuilding, and especially big car groups, because as I said, many modelers might like to model a car group if it was big (or of course if you convince them it is interesting). I sometimes also would think about how hard the car might be to kitbash or otherwise model. Sometimes an easy-to-model car group is the most interesting to an audience.
       As someone else mentioned, be sure to give a timeline for paint and lettering schemes. This might be the most valuable content for someone not modeling the road in question. Beyond that, I'm not sure what all to suggest, but feel free to email me off list if you want more detail.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Ladders On Freight Cars

Jack Mullen
 

Dennis, Bob, Eric

It appears that foot guards were only required for the bottom rung.

"Metal ladders without stiles near corners of cars shall have foot guards or upward projections not less than two (2) inches in height near inside end of bottom tread.
Stiles of ladders will serve as foot guards"

This is quoted from the Safety Appliances chapter in the '43 Cyc, which happens to be the only one I have at hand, but I don't recall changes during the steam era.

That noted, as one who has had to climb a lot of car ladders over the years, I can say that foot guards are indeed a desirable improvement over straight grabs when used as a step, 

Jack Mullen


Re: AHM NYC stock car from the 1960s

Steve SANDIFER
 

I did one of the AHM modifications several years ago. You can see it about halfway down the page at http://atsfrr.com/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Mod/AHM.htm

 

I cut a block of wood to fit snugly into the interior of the car. Then I used a fine tooth blade in my table saw and cut it in half. The width of the black was enough to remove the "too wide" material. After gluing it back together, I went to work removing all of the cast on items and detailing it. Don't remove the cast on stuff first, because you may destroy the shell in cutting in in half and you will have done all of the other work for nothing. AHM put the deck lifting mechanism on both sides, so you need to remove it completely from one side. On the other I removed that mechanism except for the horizontal shaft supports at the bottom and then rebuilt it all with wire and chain.

 

__________________________________________________

J. Stephen Sandifer

Minister Emeritus, Southwest Central Church of Christ

Webmaster, Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 9:09 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: AHM NYC stock car from the 1960s

 

 

Armand Premo wrote:
"Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this car too wide."

Correct.  The car was altered to fit AHM's PS-1 underframe that they used on all of their 40 ft house cars.

"I believe the RPI team and John Nehrich had an item about cutting the car in half, resplice it, after removing the excess width. Following the information I performed the recommended surgery and am very pleased with the results."

Correct technique, but the source is misattributed.  "Kitbashing NYC Double-deck Stock Cars" by William Sharpe, Railroad Model Craftsman, March 1997, p 84.

 


Ben Hom 


Re: Ladders On Freight Cars

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <thecitrusbelt@...> wrote :

 

If the answer in #2, then when were ladders with side rails and rungs required?

=====================


As far as I know, never within the time frame of the discussions here. A series of separate grab irons was always considered the equivalent of a ladder.


I was going to postulate that at some points the grabs had to be the type with "foot guards", what modelers call "drop grabs", the purpose of the of the up-turned ends being to prevent the climber's foot from slipping off the rung, same as a ladder stile would. If you study builder's photos, you will see that by the USRA era these were used any place it was expected the grab would also be used as a foothold; straight grabs being used as handholds only.


However, I don't think this was ever a requirement. As an example, I'll cite the cars built for the Soo Line, which had ladders with one stile, the rungs ending as straight grabs on the corner post. Cars with this pattern were built in 1912, '13, '14, '15, '20, '21, '23, '26, '28, '29, and 1930, and remained unchanged until retired in the sixties and seventies. I thus conclude that foot guards were never a requirement.


Dennis Storzek


Re: clinic preparation insights?

Clark Propst
 

Sometimes guys go into such detail describing a car from the early teens they run short on time and rush through the later stuff that most people care about. Put the detail info in a handout, don’t put people to sleep talking too much about small items on a particular car. I want to know how to model something. If you’re clinic is not about that say so up front that way those like me can just sit back and enjoy the photos without having to fret over model construction. If you do want to say something about modeling the cars, put it in the handout and say it’s there. Freight car presentations need a handout!
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Ladders On Freight Cars

Eric Hansmann
 

Bob,

Reviewing builder images of the Teens and Twenties should reveal freight cars using individual grabs as a ladder and actual ladders. Before this 1910 amendment, many freight cars had one ladder (or ladder grabs) on a car corner and often on the end. Here's an example from a 1910 image taken in Scranton. 

http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/201605_shorty_pt3_lead2.jpg

Note the DL&W box car on the left. It has ladder grabs on the end at the left side. If you look at the side and at the far right end, there is no ladder, only a solitary grab. Some companies did the opposite, no end ladder but a ladder on the side at the far right. The Pennsy car also lacks a ladder in that same spot. Also note there are no sill steps under the sides at the far left. This is another aspect that may have been covered by the 1910 amendment.

I think this 1910 Safety Appliances Act amendment was an attempt to standardize ladder placement. Check out USRA car builder images and there will be ladders, or ladder grabs, on the side at the far right and on the ends at the same corner. 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX



On May 15, 2016 at 12:57 AM "thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

A 1910 legislative amendment to the Railroad Safety Appliance Act required, among other things, ladders on freight cars by July 1, 1911.

My question is, did this amendment require (1) ladders with side rails and rungs or (2) only ladders consisting of a series of grab irons?

If the answer in #2, then when were ladders with side rails and rungs required?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: clinic preparation insights?

Armand Premo
 

An area that is often neglected is the information on each freight car.What does it all mean?Why is it important ?Seeing a car with "New" after many years of service has bothered me.What does Reweigh date signify?Why is it important an so often overlooked by the manufacturer as well as the modeler?.I rarely hear anything about this being discussed in clinics..Armand Premo--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 5/14/16, Robert Kirkham rdkirkham@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] clinic preparation insights?
To: STMFC@...
Date: Saturday, May 14, 2016, 7:46 PM


 















Hi there,

I’m busy collecting images and ORER
information to present a freight car clinic.  The
focus is basically a summary of the house car
roster of a specific
railroad in a specific
era, something that has been done by others
many times before. 

As I work through number
series after number series, I can see a real mixed bag of
technology (frames mostly) and the modernity of the designs
goes back and forth during those years.  Details change
over the life of each of the car
designs.  Rebuilds happen.   There are
models available for some; stand ins for
others.  I’m tracking all that as far as
I find it interesting.  Photos range
from fantastic to grainy, faded and
fuzzy.

What I am wondering is whether there is more
to talk about to make such a clinic
interesting to others.



Do any of you who
have done (or attended) a lot
of freight
car roster type clinics have some pointers
about what folks especially appreciated? 
Dislikes? 

I’m asking about the
content only here . .
.  can’t do a lot about my face, my voice,
or etc.  Maybe I could wear a brightly coloured
shirt . . .

Rob Kirkham 

      













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Re: Georgia USRA silver and black box car

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

By the numbers, these were originally Georgia 19300-19449, ARA XM-1 design single-sheathed boxcars built by Tennessee Coal & Iron Co. in 1924. They are covered in RP Cyc 18, and there is a photo of an unrebuilt car on pge 42. Tichy offers a kit for the original configuration. Georgia Railroad rebuilt 128 of these cars with steel sides between 1949 and 1957.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 5/14/16 7:14 PM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Regarding the Georgia rebuilds I have photos of two:


#29448 this is a BCR car, photo by Paul Dunn in the Rich Burg collection
#29345 this is a black and aluminum car, photo by Col. Chet McCoid from Bob's Photo

To help people picture these cars they have four hat section posts that appear to be equally spaced joining five steel panels. I think the roof a Murphy rectangular paneled roof. Door is a 4/6/4 Youngstown door. Shots are at an angle that make it difficult to read the end but appears to be an out facing Murphy end.

Bill Welch


Ladders On Freight Cars

thecitrusbelt@...
 

A 1910 legislative amendment to the Railroad Safety Appliance Act required, among other things, ladders on freight cars by July 1, 1911.

 

My question is, did this amendment require (1) ladders with side rails and rungs or (2) only ladders consisting of a series of grab irons?

 

If the answer in #2, then when were ladders with side rails and rungs required?

 

Thanks.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: clinic preparation insights?

Robert kirkham
 

Good advice guys – thanks.  I’ll look over the deck and make additions and changes to reflect the many good ideas!

 

No promises about Prototype Rails just yet Jeff.  But I’ll see if I can entice my sweetie to take another trip to the warm south this winter . . . . .  

 

Rob

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2016 7:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] clinic preparation insights?

 




Rob,

 

                Here are a few thoughts.  Tell the audience why they should care.  (I.e. these cars were ubiquitous, this class is significant because it used sideways inverse-Murphy ends with G-shaped corner posts).  Tell the audience about “how” more than “what”.  For example, HOW did the railroad solve the problem of shifting loads causing the ends to bow? – by using the ends I just described.

 

                Also tell them HOW they can model it.  What are the steps for kitbashing it?  How are those steps, materials, and techniques applicable to other, similar cars?  Who makes the decals?  You get bonus points for mentioning scales other than your own.

 

                I also happen to like operations.  How were these cars used?  Are they just boxcars, or were they purchased because Acme just opened a new anvil foundry?  Were they used primarily between the foundry and a major customer in the desert Southwest?

 

I hope this is helpful, and I hope to put you on the agenda for Prototype Rails 2017 in Cocoa Beach, FL.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff Aley

Clinic Chairman, PR’17

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2016 4:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] clinic preparation insights?

 

 

Hi there,

I’m busy collecting images and ORER information to present a freight car clinic.  The focus is basically a summary of the house car roster of a specific railroad in a specific era, something that has been done by others many times before. 

As I work through number series after number series, I can see a real mixed bag of technology (frames mostly) and the modernity of the designs goes back and forth during those years.  Details change over the life of each of the car designs.  Rebuilds happen.   There are models available for some; stand ins for others.  I’m tracking all that as far as I find it interesting.  Photos range from fantastic to grainy, faded and fuzzy.

What I am wondering is whether there is more to talk about to make such a clinic interesting to others.

Do any of you who have done (or attended) a lot of freight car roster type clinics have some pointers about what folks especially appreciated?  Dislikes? 

I’m asking about the content only here . . .  can’t do a lot about my face, my voice, or etc.  Maybe I could wear a brightly coloured shirt . . .

Rob Kirkham 

      

 





Re: clinic preparation insights?

Aley, Jeff A
 

Rob,

 

                Here are a few thoughts.  Tell the audience why they should care.  (I.e. these cars were ubiquitous, this class is significant because it used sideways inverse-Murphy ends with G-shaped corner posts).  Tell the audience about “how” more than “what”.  For example, HOW did the railroad solve the problem of shifting loads causing the ends to bow? – by using the ends I just described.

 

                Also tell them HOW they can model it.  What are the steps for kitbashing it?  How are those steps, materials, and techniques applicable to other, similar cars?  Who makes the decals?  You get bonus points for mentioning scales other than your own.

 

                I also happen to like operations.  How were these cars used?  Are they just boxcars, or were they purchased because Acme just opened a new anvil foundry?  Were they used primarily between the foundry and a major customer in the desert Southwest?

 

I hope this is helpful, and I hope to put you on the agenda for Prototype Rails 2017 in Cocoa Beach, FL.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff Aley

Clinic Chairman, PR’17

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2016 4:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] clinic preparation insights?

 

 

Hi there,

I’m busy collecting images and ORER information to present a freight car clinic.  The focus is basically a summary of the house car roster of a specific railroad in a specific era, something that has been done by others many times before. 

As I work through number series after number series, I can see a real mixed bag of technology (frames mostly) and the modernity of the designs goes back and forth during those years.  Details change over the life of each of the car designs.  Rebuilds happen.   There are models available for some; stand ins for others.  I’m tracking all that as far as I find it interesting.  Photos range from fantastic to grainy, faded and fuzzy.

What I am wondering is whether there is more to talk about to make such a clinic interesting to others.

Do any of you who have done (or attended) a lot of freight car roster type clinics have some pointers about what folks especially appreciated?  Dislikes? 

I’m asking about the content only here . . .  can’t do a lot about my face, my voice, or etc.  Maybe I could wear a brightly coloured shirt . . .

Rob Kirkham 

      


Re: clinic preparation insights?

Bruce Smith
 

Rob,


Please provide a handout that details the series and the specific details as I find this type of information priceless for modeling.   The ability to model specific cars is a good thing to discuss and the other thing is to give an idea of the proportion of the fleet at periods of time.


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of Robert Kirkham rdkirkham@... [STMFC]
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2016 6:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] clinic preparation insights?
 


Hi there,

I’m busy collecting images and ORER information to present a freight car clinic.  The focus is basically a summary of the house car roster of a specific railroad in a specific era, something that has been done by others many times before

As I work through number series after number series, I can see a real mixed bag of technology (frames mostly) and the modernity of the designs goes back and forth during those years.  Details change over the life of each of the car designs.  Rebuilds happen.   There are models available for some; stand ins for others.  I’m tracking all that as far as I find it interesting.  Photos range from fantastic to grainy, faded and fuzzy.

What I am wondering is whether there is more to talk about to make such a clinic interesting to others.

Do any of you who have done (or attended) a lot of freight car roster type clinics have some pointers about what folks especially appreciated?  Dislikes? 

I’m asking about the content only here . . .  can’t do a lot about my face, my voice, or etc.  Maybe I could wear a brightly coloured shirt . . .

Rob Kirkham 

      




Re: clinic preparation insights?

Charles Peck
 

The changes of paint and lettering over the life of a car can mean a lot to a modeler, especially when
you can give a date when the style changed.  A feature that has tripped me up in the past was marks
that designated a special service. Example; a car marked with an X on the door or other symbol that
said it was in LCL service.  Not knowing that mark was not typical of the class of car, I might have it
in interchange service two railroads away from it's designated working area.
Chuck Peck in FL

On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Robert Kirkham rdkirkham@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Hi there,

I’m busy collecting images and ORER information to present a freight car clinic.  The focus is basically a summary of the house car roster of a specific railroad in a specific era, something that has been done by others many times before

As I work through number series after number series, I can see a real mixed bag of technology (frames mostly) and the modernity of the designs goes back and forth during those years.  Details change over the life of each of the car designs.  Rebuilds happen.   There are models available for some; stand ins for others.  I’m tracking all that as far as I find it interesting.  Photos range from fantastic to grainy, faded and fuzzy.

What I am wondering is whether there is more to talk about to make such a clinic interesting to others.

Do any of you who have done (or attended) a lot of freight car roster type clinics have some pointers about what folks especially appreciated?  Dislikes? 

I’m asking about the content only here . . .  can’t do a lot about my face, my voice, or etc.  Maybe I could wear a brightly coloured shirt . . .

Rob Kirkham 

      



clinic preparation insights?

Robert kirkham
 

Hi there,

I’m busy collecting images and ORER information to present a freight car clinic.  The focus is basically a summary of the house car roster of a specific railroad in a specific era, something that has been done by others many times before

As I work through number series after number series, I can see a real mixed bag of technology (frames mostly) and the modernity of the designs goes back and forth during those years.  Details change over the life of each of the car designs.  Rebuilds happen.   There are models available for some; stand ins for others.  I’m tracking all that as far as I find it interesting.  Photos range from fantastic to grainy, faded and fuzzy.

What I am wondering is whether there is more to talk about to make such a clinic interesting to others.

Do any of you who have done (or attended) a lot of freight car roster type clinics have some pointers about what folks especially appreciated?  Dislikes? 

I’m asking about the content only here . . .  can’t do a lot about my face, my voice, or etc.  Maybe I could wear a brightly coloured shirt . . .

Rob Kirkham 

      


Re: Georgia USRA silver and black box car

Bill Welch
 

Regarding the Georgia rebuilds I have photos of two:

#29448 this is a BCR car, photo by Paul Dunn in the Rich Burg collection
#29345 this is a black and aluminum car, photo by Col. Chet McCoid from Bob's Photo

To help people picture these cars they have four hat section posts that appear to be equally spaced joining five steel panels. I think the roof a Murphy rectangular paneled roof. Door is a 4/6/4 Youngstown door. Shots are at an angle that make it difficult to read the end but appears to be an out facing Murphy end.

Bill Welch


Re: Georgia USRA silver and black box car

Bill Welch
 

I am going to look also.

Bill Welch


Re: Georgia USRA silver and black box car

al_brown03
 

There's a photo of GA 29330 in MM 4/99, p 60, and one of GA 29399 in Henderson, "Classic Freight Cars vol 1", p 39.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Chuck Yungkurth

mforsyth127
 

 

Ed mines wrote: 


>Chuck  was a career man with IBM, in the personnel department I believe. He grew up in Scranton, PA and was a railfan when steam was replaced by diesel. Avid modeler too.


>We always hoped to meet in Scranton at a good Hungarian restaurant.


>Maybe we will in the next world.


>Rest in peace Chuck. 


Folks, 


As mentioned, Chuck was originally from Scranton; his grandfather a D&H employee. He held an engineering degree from Penn State, and moved to Endicott, NY in 1950 to take a job with IBM in the drafting department. He had a house up on Holiday Hill (out past En-joie Golf), where he and his wife Mary raised their kids. 


An "HO" modeler and scratch builder (brass DL&W camelbacks), Chuck made the move to "O" in the early 1980's, building a large RR in his basement. He was also an active member of the O Scale Binghamton Model RR Club, est. 1939. 

He retired from IBM in 1995, he and Mary sold the house and moved to a condo in Boulder, CO, to be near his daughter, who is a graphic artist for Breyer. Mary died from liver cancer not too long after the move.

He was a close friend when he lived here (in upstate NY), and we have always stayed in contact via phone/email. He lived a very full life, was an accomplished rail author, artist, historian, and made it into his 90's. 


Matt Forsyth

Forsyth Rail Services



http://mattforsyth.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Chuck_Yungkurth_2013-630x920.jpg







Re: Georgia USRA silver and black box car

Clark Propst
 

Can you get me the car numbers off your photographs?
 
I have one photo Gary. It’s 29382
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Georgia USRA silver and black box car

Gary Bechdol
 

Clark:

Can you get me the car numbers off your photographs?  The Georgia Road/West Point diagrams aren't detailed enough to show the posts.  Looks like they used one drawing for all their boxcars, and changed the dimensions according to the car.

TIA.

Gary Bechdol

52401 - 52420 of 194739