Date   

Re: Pittsburg Pig Iron was Re: 70-ton ore cars in Utah

Mark Hemphill
 

John, 

Both UP and D&RGW served Columbia Steel at Ironton, and both Santa Fe and SP served Columbia Steel at Pittsburg, so in theory it could have had the following routings:

D&RGW-SP
D&RGW-WP-AT&SF
UP-SP
UP-WP-AT&SF

My bet is that UP-SP had most of the pig iron traffic.  Though rates would have been identical either way, the UP-SP service would probably have been better.  But I would not be surprised to see it moving on multiple routes at the same time, or varying back and forth, as one railroad provided better cars and service then lost interest, and so forth.

Here's a couple of useful photos that might help:

The first shows cold pig being loaded from stockpile into a UP GS gon:

http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/USHS_Class/id/12208/rec/49

 

The second shows hot pig going direct from the pig machine into UP GS gons:

Columbia Steel at Pittsburg had a capacity in 1938 of 229,000 tons/year of open-hearth steel.  The open-hearth charge was probably 45% pig iron and 55% scrap, so 2,151 50-ton carloads of pig iron a year would be required, when the mill was running full-out.  Or about 6 cars a day. 


Re: Pittsburg Pig Iron was Re: 70-ton ore cars in Utah

John Barry
 

Mark,

Any idea on cars and routing of that pig iron to Pittsburg?  I'm designing an ATSF Valley Division layout circa 1944 and Pittsburg is prominent in that plan.  Am acquiring the freight cars for the line now.
 
John Barry

ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights

707-490-9696

PO Box 44736
Washington, DC 20026-4736


From: "markwmhemphill@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 9:06 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: 70-ton ore cars in Utah

 
Dave, I think you meant to say Utah iron ore?  Until Atlantic City opened in 1963, the Iron Springs Mining District at Iron Mountain, Utah, was the only source of iron ore for Columbia Steel at Ironton, and the Defense Plant Corporation (U.S Steel after WWII) Geneva Works.  

Ironton was immediately south of Provo.  The Provo Yard leads today run past the site.  

The Ironton plant ran from 1924 to 1966.  It produced only pig iron; it had no blast furnaces and no rolling mills.  Its original role was to provide pig iron to Columbia Steel's blast furnaces at Pittsburg, California.  Later it provided pig to Geneva, as well as to Kaiser Steel.

One thing for sure, the Walthers HO ore jenny looks just like the UP ORE-70-2 -- as long as you're standing at least 30 feet away.

MWH



Re: 70-ton ore cars in Utah

Mark Hemphill
 

Dave, I think you meant to say Utah iron ore?  Until Atlantic City opened in 1963, the Iron Springs Mining District at Iron Mountain, Utah, was the only source of iron ore for Columbia Steel at Ironton, and the Defense Plant Corporation (U.S Steel after WWII) Geneva Works.  

Ironton was immediately south of Provo.  The Provo Yard leads today run past the site.  

The Ironton plant ran from 1924 to 1966.  It produced only pig iron; it had no blast furnaces and no rolling mills.  Its original role was to provide pig iron to Columbia Steel's blast furnaces at Pittsburg, California.  Later it provided pig to Geneva, as well as to Kaiser Steel.

One thing for sure, the Walthers HO ore jenny looks just like the UP ORE-70-2 -- as long as you're standing at least 30 feet away.

MWH


Determining Rung Spacing When Scratch Building Ladders

Bill Welch
 

I have posted over on the Resin Car Works Blog an easy technique for figuring out rung spacing when scratch building freight car ladders: Resin Car Works Blog

Bill Welch


Re: 70-ton ore cars in Utah

Dick Harley
 

The loaded gons in the left foreground have 20-inch "Union Pacific" lettering, which started in mid-1956, so the photo was taken between 1956 and 1963, when the page says the photo was used (not taken).

If the ore cars are UP cars, they would have to be class ORE-70-2 cars, 500 of which were built in Omaha in 1954 having a length over end sills of 26'-5".

A listing of the 1960 UP Freight Car Diagram book was posted to the Files section of this list on Sept. 27, 2001.


Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach, CA


Re: SP TOFC trailers marked for NWP

Dennis
 

My apologies for neglecting the rules of the group. I thought my signature would be added automatically - it has been too long since I posted something.

Thank you for your kind assistance and understanding.

Dennis Korn
NWP 1956


Re: CP 244833 box car

Tim O'Connor
 

Dennis

I don't know about this particular street car line, but the area still
has many trolley lines -- but they're all rubber tired trolleys now. And
of course there is light rail (Green Line) but no resemblance to the
"street cars" of yore.

Tim O'


I find it interesting that the draw spans of the bridge still have streetcar rails, and all the towers are in place to support the wire when the bridge opens, but the wire is gone and the track paved over on the approaches, especially since Boston kept their streetcars late (still).
Dennis Storzek


Dust-up over boxcar roofs

Jim Mischke
 


In 1912, there was a patent infringement lawsuit brought by patent holder Peter H. Murphy against the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, for boxcars built with roofs constructed by Chicago-Cleveland Roofing Company.   Mr. Murphy won at trial but lost on appeal in the Washington DC court system, where the appellate court on 4-22-1912 ruled B&O did not furnish the boxcars hence could not have infringed a patent.  Injunction dissolved and suit dismissed.

Source:   American Engineer, June 1912, page 324.


Informal analysis:

I would think this absolute defense would have been the salient consideration at trial, but it appears that appeals are a good thing.   Besides plaintiff attraction for deep pockets, this matter may have targeted a B&O specification and design.

This was at the time when Mr. John J. Tatum had become B&O car superintendent and was filing patents on all sorts of innovations, including boxcar roofs.  Or not, many of his well known designs were proprietary yet not patented.

B&O was ordering M-15 subclass boxcars at this time.  A close examination of pre-1912 diagrams might narrow the affected M-15 subclasses down to one.

The lawsuit shows conflict and acrimony amongst famous names in our freight car domain.  This probably means Messers Murphy and Tatum may not have been drinking buddies nor on speaking terms thereafter.  A certain awkwardness at subsequent Master Car Builders conventions, perhaps.

This could add deeper meaning to Mr. Tatum's XLT trade name (short for Excellent-Tatum) for his growing rolling stock intellectual property portfolio versus Mr. Murphy's commercial "XLA" design boxcar roof.   The nomenclature similarity may be vindictive, rather than random chance or a playful swipe.





Re: Waterloo, Cedar Falls & Northern flat car

mwbauers
 

Then you have a template from which to make new sides from……..

The lines of the thing is what I find to be matching. No matter what car you choose to use for the bulk of the model.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jun 18, 2015, at 1:39 PM, tgregmrtn wrote:


I have an old metal one and it is crude and mostly unless you are a collector which I am not. 
 
I am thinking the Tyco might be a better start but I would have to count stake pockets and if that were wrong Clark has a solution. 
 
Greg Martin 
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean 
 
In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:01:38 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

Their metal one may be the better profile 


Re: CP 244833 box car

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote
This location is now near where the "Big Dig" tunnel emerges from underground
and crosses the river (Interstate 93) on those piers. This was part of the whole
"Northeast Expressway" elevated highway through Boston that was built in the 1950's
and finally torn down and submerged. I-93 ran straight through the B&M yards and
those neighborhoods in the distance.
==============

I find it interesting that the draw spans of the bridge still have streetcar rails, and all the towers are in place to support the wire when the bridge opens, but the wire is gone and the track paved over on the approaches, especially since Boston kept their streetcars late (still).

Dennis Storzek


Re: BAR State of Maine Products

Tim O'Connor
 


The cars in the Boston photo are from Magor, BAR 2000-2299, built 1950-1951.

The New Haven cars were an add-on to a 1953 order from Pacific Car & Foundry,
BAR 2300-2449. The NH elected to stick with the BAR paint scheme because PC&F
would actually have charged them MORE money to paint them another way - and by
1953 the New Haven was really watching their pennies!

These have been done VERY nicely in N scale by the way. :-) Also there were brass
imports in HO scale from Railworks, also very well done.

Tim O'Connor



Steve Hoxie wrote:
"Lots of interest in this photo including the BAR cars. Learning something everyday; I had thought the red, white, and blue scheme was several years later.

https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:8c97mg105

The photos of restored BAR 2573 at the Conway Scenic RR are the best online photos of these cars? 2573 is stenciled BLT 6-53."
 
Photos of the car at North Conway:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rspicture.aspx?id=425701
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bar/bar2573dpb.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bar/bar2573epb.jpg
 
These are NOT reefers, but insulated boxcars equipped with a heater.

"Has anyone done an HO model?"
Funaro did a model for the NHRHTA years ago (New Haven acquired identical cars differing only in reporting marks and herald, NH 45000-45099), but has not reintroduced it in this current line.
 
Ben Hom 


https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:8c97mg105


Re: CP 244833 box car

Tim O'Connor
 

Ed

I bow to your automotive expertise -- those BAR box cars were built by Magor
from 1950 to 1951, so the presence of so many 1940's autos in the mix does seem
to rule out the "new cars" theory. Maybe Boston had a clean car ordinance in
effect? :-)

This location is now near where the "Big Dig" tunnel emerges from underground
and crosses the river (Interstate 93) on those piers. This was part of the whole
"Northeast Expressway" elevated highway through Boston that was built in the 1950's
and finally torn down and submerged. I-93 ran straight through the B&M yards and
those neighborhoods in the distance.

Tim O'Connor


https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:8c97mg105


The range of automobiles in that photo are a wide mix of makes and years. Many are 1949/50 models by GM, Ford and Chrysler Corp.. There are also a few '50/'51's and a few '46-47 models as well as a '41 Hudson and two '49 Studebakers.

Over on the left side, the parked cars appear to range from a '38 Chevrolet and '41 Plymouth to a '50 "bathtub' Nash and a '51 Chevrolet next to a '46/'47 Chevrolet.

Could it be these parked cars may belong to people working in the fairly tall building from which this photo was taken?

Hard to say why such a mix looks so clean, but back then washing (and sometimes waxing) the family car was a regular weekend ritual for many owners.

New cars built immediately after WW II were dressed-up 1941/42 models. They were suspended form production by the war effort. New designs would begin to be seen at dealers 1949/50 from the manufacturers.

Ed Bommer


Re: Waterloo, Cedar Falls & Northern flat car

Greg Martin
 

I have an old metal one and it is crude and mostly unless you are a collector which I am not.
 
I am thinking the Tyco might be a better start but I would have to count stake pockets and if that were wrong Clark has a solution.
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 

In a message dated 6/18/2015 7:01:38 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

Their metal one may be the better profile



SP TOFC trailers marked for NWP

Dennis
 

This one goes to the masses, but is targeted for Tony Thompson - the SP guru. I am finishing up the SP Historical Society TOFC flat car and trailers. The decal sheet for the trailers includes markings for the NWP (my railroad prototype), but I have not been able to find any pictures of these trailers in any reference materials. I have checked Tony's SP freight car books and SP Trainline articles to no avail. Any assistance would be appreciated. Trying to keep things prototypical . . . a never ending adventure.


Re: BAR State of Maine Products (was Re: CP 244833 box car)

Brad Smith
 

Yes, I didn't notice that those are both the plug door cars which would have had the heaters.  In N-scale, Eastern Seaboard Models made the accurate car in many BAR and NH lettering schemes. (early, late, later, etc.)  But there were also sliding door, 40' box cars that were not insulated.  These were for shorter potato shipments and paper shipping.  All these cars were in use during the potato harvest season.  Since the BAR did not have storage trackage enough to store their fleet of cars, the cars were leased out during the rest of the year, except for those in newsprint and paper service.  So, the old Athearn 40' sliding door boxcar is also accurate.  Then came the 50', sliding door cars for newsprint service.
 
Solid trains of those insulated potato cars left Maine, with a caboose, traveling south, over the BAR, B&M, New Haven and beyond.  the caboose would stay with the train and a man would ride with the train to maintain the heaters, etc, to assure the tubers arrived in good condition.  During one period, the BAR cars were painted yellow.  Still, the solid trains of yellow potato cars went out, nicknamed "Yellow dog extras."  I believe this was before the RWB colored cars and were wood cars.  Some of the wood cars got the RWB paint and a few said POTATOES instead of PRODUCTS.  And they were pulled with those beautiful BL2's after steam.
 
Brad Smith
Franklin, WI
 


Re: BAR State of Maine Products (was Re: CP 244833 box car)

Benjamin Hom
 

Steve Hoxie wrote:
"Lots of interest in this photo including the BAR cars. Learning something everyday; I had thought the red, white, and blue scheme was several years later.

https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:8c97mg105

The photos of restored BAR 2573 at the Conway Scenic RR are the best online photos of these cars? 2573 is stenciled BLT 6-53."
 
Photos of the car at North Conway:
 
These are NOT reefers, but insulated boxcars equipped with a heater.

"Has anyone done an HO model?"
Funaro did a model for the NHRHTA years ago (New Haven acquired identical cars differing only in reporting marks and herald, NH 45000-45099), but has not reintroduced it in this current line.
 
 
Ben Hom 


Re: BAR State of Maine Products (was Re: CP 244833 box car)

Brad Smith
 

Some wood cars received this scheme.  When did Lionel make their first State of Maine car?
 
Brad Smith
 

In a message dated 6/18/2015 10:52:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Lots of interest in this photo including the BAR cars. Learning something everyday; I had thought the red, white, and blue scheme was several years later.

https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:8c97mg105

The photos of restored BAR 2573 at the Conway Scenic RR are the best online photos of these cars? 2573 is stenciled BLT 6-53.

Has anyone done an HO model?

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL

 


BAR State of Maine Products (was Re: CP 244833 box car)

pennsylvania1954
 

Lots of interest in this photo including the BAR cars. Learning something everyday; I had thought the red, white, and blue scheme was several years later.

https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:8c97mg105

The photos of restored BAR 2573 at the Conway Scenic RR are the best online photos of these cars? 2573 is stenciled BLT 6-53.

Has anyone done an HO model?

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL

 


Re: CP 244833 box car

Barry Bennett
 

And there are plenty similar cars on the road both parked and on the move. My first reaction was that is was being used as a parking lot and I've read nothing in these exchanges to change my mind in that respect.

In fact, I found the REA trucks and the loading door arrangements far more interesting.

Barry Bennett
Coventry, England.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 3:20 PM, edb8391@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

The range of automobiles in that photo are a wide mix of makes and years. Many are 1949/50 models by GM, Ford and Chrysler Corp.. There are also a few '50/'51's and a few '46-47 models as well as a '41 Hudson and two '49 Studebakers.


Over on the left side, the parked cars appear to range from a '38 Chevrolet and '41 Plymouth to a '50 "bathtub' Nash and a '51 Chevrolet next to a '46/'47 Chevrolet.


Could it be these parked cars may belong to people working in the fairly tall building from which this photo was taken?


Hard to say why such a mix looks so clean, but back then washing (and sometimes waxing) the family car was a regular weekend ritual for many owners.


New cars built immediately after WW II were dressed-up 1941/42 models. They were suspended form production by the war effort. New designs would begin to be seen at dealers 1949/50 from the manufacturers.


Ed Bommer



Re: CP 244833 box car

Edward
 

The range of automobiles in that photo are a wide mix of makes and years. Many are 1949/50 models by GM, Ford and Chrysler Corp.. There are also a few '50/'51's and a few '46-47 models as well as a '41 Hudson and two '49 Studebakers.


Over on the left side, the parked cars appear to range from a '38 Chevrolet and '41 Plymouth to a '50 "bathtub' Nash and a '51 Chevrolet next to a '46/'47 Chevrolet.


Could it be these parked cars may belong to people working in the fairly tall building from which this photo was taken?


Hard to say why such a mix looks so clean, but back then washing (and sometimes waxing) the family car was a regular weekend ritual for many owners.


New cars built immediately after WW II were dressed-up 1941/42 models. They were suspended form production by the war effort. New designs would begin to be seen at dealers 1949/50 from the manufacturers.


Ed Bommer

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