Date   

Re: Car Service Rules

Paul Koehler
 

Robert:

 

Like me you must have worked for the SP.  That was the same attitude at Los Angeles, keep the customer happy.

 

Paul C. Koehler

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 6:44 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Car Service Rules

 

 

Jim,

 

At the railroads I've worked at, almost no effort by the clerks, and zero by the yardmasters, went into satisfying car service rules.  Everyone was too busy trying to get the job at hand done, right now.  I would never delay getting a usuable car to a customer because of car service rules as customers mean income.  They get upset when they are told to wait... don't even ask, keep them happy because they might make a call to the sales & marketing manager or VP.  No clerk or agent is going to get yelled at for "violating" a car service rule to do right by a customer.

 

Robert Simpson

 



---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Dan and all,

 ...it still prompts me to ask ... just
how much effort - or delayed delivery to the shipper - did the
RRs really go to in order to satisfy the car service rules?
  I'm guessing that most shippers were unhappy with any delays
 in the delivery of the car (for most loads for most shippers)...


                                                                           - Jim B.


Re: RE; Car Service Rules

John Larkin
 

George hit a bullseye with the comment on per diem.  When I first started railroading with UP in 1982 I did a study of the yard office operations.  Among the other surprises was the priority given to getting foreign cars off the UP property before midnight, even running special trains (often shorter than normal) just to get the cars off before the next day's per diem would be due.  I asked how long that had gone on like that and was told that it had been that way since most of the clerks started work at UP, which went back into WWII in many cases. 

Another commensurate note was that the D&RGW in particular seemed to be pretty good at getting the UP cars to us, running their own "per diem" trains that were sometimes solid UP cars, again not particularly long.  This also had a history from the steam era according to the UP clerks working in Salt Lake.  Seems using the foreign cars came second to getting rid of the per diem, and UP in the local office delighted in getting UP cars sent back east on long runs that were interchanged at KC or Omaha due in part to the per diem they would collect..

John Larkin



On Sunday, September 6, 2015 12:53 PM, "george eichelberger geichelberger@... [STMFC]" wrote:


I have no doubt the Southern did not send cars off line simply because they had an excessive supply. There are multiple Southern Railway AFEs (Authorization for Expenditures) available that specifically mention positive per diem balances as part of the rationale to purchase the equipment. Is the comment about western and eastern roads based on specific documentation or someone’s assumptions? Does the extensive AAR documentation on car availability and car purchases in the years after the war confirm this eastern-western theory?

I would be very interested in seeing any primary research information that describes cars being trapped by the ACL, SAL, L&N or Southern. I recognize that various railroads entered bankruptcy during the depression, after the war and into the (forbidden) modern era. I also recognize that of the railroads I mention, only the SAL ever went through a bankruptcy, none were dismembered, abandoned a large part of their system or found themselves in such dire straits that they sold or merged themselves out of existence. (I believe it is correct to consider the RI, MILW and SP “western” roads?)

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Re: white lines on boxcar doors and other markings

Guy Wilber
 

Ian wrote:

"This will depend on the ORER being referenced, as this extra material only appeared in certain eras."

My reference was to the (Scott's) 1965 ORER. Bulletin 28 was originally issued in 1939 reflecting the new markings for auto cars adopted that year. It was issued as a separate document until it first appeared in the January, 1945 issue of the ORER.

For Evans Auto~Loader and NYC loader markings from 1933 thru mid 1939 the standards were printed within the ARA & AAR manuals and consisted of nine different door markings in addition to the 3" white door stripe, thus the simplifications of 1939.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: LV Door selection

Alex Schneider
 

Would it be practical to cut out N ribs from the top section and N-1 from the bottom section and exchange them?

Alex Schneider

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 10:05 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] LV Door selection






As posted several months ago, CB&T car shops 6' Youngstown door is a one-year only variation. The debut of the post-war Youngstown door was in 1947and featured 6/6/5 IYD spacing. All subsequent post-war YSD had changed to the 5/6/6 spacing. You need to find a door from:
Red Caboose 5/6/6 IYD from their ACF 40' box cars.
Intermountain 5/6/6 IYD from their modified AAR box cars


Branchline/Atlas Blueprint from their AAR 40' box cars
Kadee from their PS-1 box cars available w/ molded tack boards in either high or lowered position.





I have many of the RC and Intermountain doors.


-Andy Carlson



_____

From: "'Alex Schneider' aschneiderjr@... <mailto:aschneiderjr@...> [STMFC]" <STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC@...> >

Perfect, just what I needed. Thanks very much.

Alex Schneider


Alex:

Go to the Fallen Flag website. The LV 63699 is in a group that has 7' wide Youngstown doors and Dreadnaught 1+3/4 ends. Other details are visible in those photos, but looks like an AAR 1944-style car.

Not sure of the GMO cars. Probably some on that site too.

-- John


Re: white lines on boxcar doors and other markings

Ian Cranstone
 

On 2015-07-07, at 3:47 PM, Guy Wilber guycwilber@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Scott wrote:

"If memory serves, a horizontal white line on the main door of a boxcar meant it had auto loading racks inside. And there are other markings referring to load restraining devices. What I can't remember is in which book should I be looking for this info. I thought it was in the ORER, but a look in a 1965 edition turned up nothing."

If your ORER is complete you will find the quarterly copy of Bulletin 28 within the Editorial section. Bulletin 28 dealt strictly with auto cars and does not contain information on load restraining devices.


This will depend on the ORER being referenced, as this extra material only appeared in certain eras.  That being said, my July 1955 ORER has the aforementioned Bulletin 28, and this is followed by a listing of automobile cars complete with descriptions of rack types and number of floor tubes.

Specifically:

1: cars equipped with loading racks are to be marked with long 3" white stripes below center on main side door, full length, both sides of cars.

2: Inside height of car at center to be stencilled in 2" high black figures in center of white stripe on each main side door

3: Number of floor tubes in car (8/12/14/16) as well as the type of rack in car (A/B/C/D-/D/T) to be stencilled approximately 2" below white stripe in center of main side door (example "8D"). See note 5 for non-Evans racks.

4: If adjustments have been made to the rack or car to suit certain shippers, and some designation is desired, it can be done by the individual road. Marking cars by letters other than those assigned to types of racks, or by other characters, locating same 2" below floor tube and rack marking using 3" white character or letter (example "X").

5: Cars equipped with racks other than the Evans rack should have in markings located 2" below white stripe: number of floor tubes, letter designating make before abbreviation for rack ("N" for New York Central, "A" for AAR type, etc), character showing Evans rack equivalent (example "8ND-" meaning 8 floor tubes, New York Central rack equivalent to D- design).

6: Any cars equipped with only one rack to have white bar 2" x 8" extending up vertically from center of stripe on both main side doors.




LV Door selection

Andy Carlson
 

 
As posted several months ago, CB&T car shops 6' Youngstown door is a one-year only variation. The debut of the post-war Youngstown door was in 1947and featured 6/6/5 IYD spacing. All subsequent post-war YSD had changed to the 5/6/6 spacing. You need to find a door from:
Red Caboose 5/6/6 IYD from their ACF 40' box cars.
Intermountain 5/6/6 IYD from their modified AAR box cars
Branchline/Atlas Blueprint from their AAR 40' box cars
Kadee from their PS-1 box cars available w/ molded tack boards in either high or lowered position.

I have many of the RC and Intermountain doors.
-Andy Carlson


From: "'Alex Schneider' aschneiderjr@... [STMFC]"

 
Perfect, just what I needed. Thanks very much.
 
Alex Schneider



Alex:
 
Go to the Fallen Flag website.  The LV 63699 is in a group that has 7' wide Youngstown doors and Dreadnaught 1+3/4 ends.  Other details are visible in those photos, but looks like an AAR 1944-style car.
 
Not sure of the GMO cars.  Probably some on that site too.
 
-- John






Re: Door selection

Alex Schneider
 

Perfect, just what I needed. Thanks very much.

 

Alex Schneider

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 7:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Door selection

 



Alex:

 

Go to the Fallen Flag website.  The LV 63699 is in a group that has 7' wide Youngstown doors and Dreadnaught 1+3/4 ends.  Other details are visible in those photos, but looks like an AAR 1944-style car.

 

Not sure of the GMO cars.  Probably some on that site too.

 

-- John





Re: Car Service Rules

Geodyssey
 

Jim,


At the railroads I've worked at, almost no effort by the clerks, and zero by the yardmasters, went into satisfying car service rules.  Everyone was too busy trying to get the job at hand done, right now.  I would never delay getting a usuable car to a customer because of car service rules as customers mean income.  They get upset when they are told to wait... don't even ask, keep them happy because they might make a call to the sales & marketing manager or VP.  No clerk or agent is going to get yelled at for "violating" a car service rule to do right by a customer.


Robert Simpson




---In STMFC@..., <jimbetz@...> wrote :

Dan and all,

 ...it still prompts me to ask ... just
how much effort - or delayed delivery to the shipper - did the
RRs really go to in order to satisfy the car service rules?
  I'm guessing that most shippers were unhappy with any delays
 in the delivery of the car (for most loads for most shippers)...

                                                                           - Jim B.


Re: Tichy models of ACL flats and gondolas

John Sykes III
 

I'm not an ACL wonk, so I might be wrong, but I think most of those flat cars were either in MOW service or had pulpwood bulkheads added by the mid-1950s, so in either case would not be found offline in 1960.  They had the class changed when modified, which is why I have some trouble following their history.  The Tichy car is really not an ACL prototype, but is very close.

As far as the lettering, my impression is that only the steamers, early diesels and passenger cars had the aluminum lettering.  Later it was dropped, since it was labor-intensive to apply (they used aluminum leaf as far as I know, which is applied the same as gold leaf -  PRR dropped that in the early 1950s to save costs).  Again, I really don't specialize in ACL, and especially their passenger cars, but I think they went from aluminum leaf on a purple letterboard to black letters on a plain stainless steel background.  Need help here though.

-- John


Re: Tichy models of ACL flats and gondolas

Justin May <jmay59@...>
 

My impression is that by 1960 they were held to on-line service only. Is that true?
Jim,
By 1954, only 21 of the P-11 series remained. Other groups are the P-9, and sub-groups such as the P-11C, P-11G, and others from the absorption of AB&C, such as the P-15 class. Speaking in generalities, yes, most of those cars that remained in revenue service were being utilized by on-line customers only, as there wasn't a need for a 40-ton flat car by most shippers. Most were constructed in 1914, 1917 (40-ton capacity), with the P-15 class being constructed in 1926 and rated for 50-ton capacity. We ran a nice illustrated article of these cars in the Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler Issue 17 featuring the work of Tom Christensen along with several prototype photos.

http://s-clmodeler.aclsal.org/magimages/sclm17coverfull.jpg
http://s-clmodeler.aclsal.org/index.htm

Would there be any reasonable excuse for an interchange escapee in 1960? Also, wasn't ACL lettering aluminum, not white? If so, are there any appropriate aluminum ACL decals for these cars?
Yes. See Liljestrand and Sweetland's Atlantic Coast Line Freight Cars book for a nice in-service shot of ACL 76771 on 10/10/1961.

The Mainline Modeler article by Mark Montague from May 1984 features a good collection of these cars as well in numerous types of service albeit most are pre-1960. ACL freight car lettering was either white, yellow, or red, never silver as that was reserved for motive power. These particular cars were lettered in white and the included Tichy decals are good.

Justin May


Re: Door selection

John Sykes III
 

Alex:

Go to the Fallen Flag website.  The LV 63699 is in a group that has 7' wide Youngstown doors and Dreadnaught 1+3/4 ends.  Other details are visible in those photos, but looks like an AAR 1944-style car.

Not sure of the GMO cars.  Probably some on that site too.

-- John


Re: Car Service Rules

Dave Nelson
 

Seems to me the SCO90 charts would be of considerable interest to both this group and the OPSIG group.  I wonder where they might be found today?

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 1:36 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Car Service Rules

 

When a car was located in an area that had no direct connection to owner, the railroad was obligated by record rights to return the car in the reverse of the loaded movement.  Much of this was solved when SCO90 was implemented in 1953 and short home routes were specified to get cars back home to owners with no regard to record rights. SCO90 charts specified who would take what owners cars at what junction points.

Dan Holbrook


Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..

O Fenton Wells
 

Yes, Bill the Speedwitch kit was what I was referring to.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 12:21 PM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

The MKT 40-ft steel auto cars had two eight-foot doors and improved Dreadnaught ends. I don't think the IM car has either of these features.


Fenton, Speedwitch offered a SS MKT car kit.

Bill Welch




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Door selection

Alex Schneider
 

I picked up a couple of C&BT kits for AAR 1944 box cars, and would appreciate recommendations whether to use the Youngstown (ribbed) or Superior (panel) doors. I have quite a few reference books about NYC, which is the railroad I model, but can use some help on foreign road cars.

 

LV 63699

 

GM&O 52287

 

I also bought NYC 70590, a 40’ automobile car of lot 760-B built in 1947, but found a photo on the Canada Southern site showing Youngstown doors. I will overlook that the built date on the model is July 1945.

 

Thanks.

 

Alex Schneider


Re: Pacific Northwest Lumber Traffic

lstt100
 

I would advise those of you interested in the PNW lumber traffic to obtain or get on loan, "American Commodity Flow" by Edward L. Uhlman, published in 1957 by University of Washington Press in Seattle. He encapsulates some of the carload waybill statistics for 20 states including Washington.  He also gives reference to "Expanding Domestic Markets for Northwestern Lumber" by Roy Sampson, published in Pacific Northwest Business January 1956 pages 3 thru 8.

Quote from book: " In a splendid recent analysis, Roy Sampson shows how Washington and Douglas fir region lumber is able to compete with southern pine in spite of being almost three times as far from market.  Production costs of Douglas fir lumber average 15 to 20 per cent below southern pine from 1939 to 1952, with absolute cost spread between the two regions widening after the war. (This presumably reflects, among other factors, the large size of Northwest trees and mills, compared to the diminishing supply of large stands in the cut over South.) In addition, rates per ton mile are less for long haul, as is normally the case; but, even more significant southern pine weighs up to 15 per cent more per board foot than Douglas fir, and transport rates are quoted on a weight basis, whereas lumber is sold on a board-foot basis.  (For most purposes, the quality of Douglas fir seems to be certainly as high as, if not higher than, most southern pine.)  The results of these differences are seen in the map of estimated delivered costs, which shows the Pacific Northwest competing on equal or superior terms in the industrial belt, the great market of the country."

Dan Holbrook


Re: Car service rules

lstt100
 

Rules apply to all equipment with the exception of: tank cars, specially equipped boxcars, LO cars in later years and any car specified in Special Car Orders. 

Dan Holbrook


Tichy models of ACL flats and gondolas

Jim Mischke
 




I recall that the Tichy flat car and related composite gondola are reasonable Atlantic Coast Line prototypes.  These survived in very limited numbers past 1960.  


A couple questions.   My impression is that by 1960 they were held to on-line service only.  Is that true? Would there be any reasonable excuse for an interchange escapee in 1960?   Also, wasn't ACL lettering aluminum, not white?   If so, are there any appropriate aluminum ACL decals for these cars?



Car service rules

Paul Catapano
 

PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.
I was under the impression that the car service rules GENERALLY pertained only to 40' boxcar's.

Paul Catapano
Winchester, Va.


Re: Car Service Rules

lstt100
 

Easiest explanation is the rules themselves.

Rule 1 Home cars shall not be used for movement of traffic beyond the limites of the home road when the use of other suitable cars under these rules is practicable.

Rule 2(A) Foreign cars on a direct connection must be forwarded to the home road loaded or empty in manner provided below.

Rule 2(B) If empty at junction with the home road and loading at that point via the home is not available they must subject to Rule 6, be delivered to it at that junction, unless an exception to requirement be agreed to be roads involved.  When holding road has no physical connection with the home road andis obliged to use an intermediate road or roads, to place the car on home rails under the provision of  this paragraph and the car has records rights to such intermediate road or roads, it may be so delivered.

Rule 2(C) If empty at other than junction points with the home road, cars under this rule may be. !. loaded via any route so that the home road will participate in the freight rate, or, 2, moved locally in the direction of the home road.  3. Moved locally in an opposite direction from the home road, or delivered to a short line or a switching road, if to be loaded for delivery on or movement via the home road, or, 4. Delivered empty to home road at any junction point subject to Rule 6, or, 5. Delivered empty to road from which originally received under load at the junction where received, or at another junction mutually agreed upon, if such road is also a direct connectoin of the home road, or 6. returned empty to the delivering road when handled only in switching service.

These were the rules.  How a specific agent, terminal or division handled the empties was up to the people operating the railroad.  If there were any Special Orders in effect, they had to be consulted and complied with.

To show everyone how confusing it was to even professional railroaders.  Imagine a WP plain boxcar being loaded with lumber from California to Buffalo, NY routed: WP-Salt Lake City-DRGW-Pueblo-MP-St.Louis-NKP.  Once unloaded car was reloaded at Buffalo with small electric motors for Spokane, WA routed NKP-Chicago-CBQ-St.Paul-NP.  This is in compliance with rules account it is being loaded in correct direction and will be located in an adjacent Car Service Map territory.  Once car was unloaded at Spokane and no load was available what happens to the empty? NP has no direct connection to WP.  Before 1953 and SCO90 which authorized the short home routing of empty plain boxcars, car would have had to been routed eastward back to CB&Q at Twin Cities and if load was not found on way east car would have to return to Chicago and lacking a load on CB&Q to get car back home, CB&Q would deliver car to NKP at Chicago who could look for a load and if not available would be obligated to return car to MP at St.Louis to get is started back home. 

When a car was located in an area that had no direct connection to owner, the railroad was obligated by record rights to return the car in the reverse of the loaded movement.  Much of this was solved when SCO90 was implemented in 1953 and short home routes were specified to get cars back home to owners with no regard to record rights. SCO90 charts specified who would take what owners cars at what junction points.

Dan Holbrook


Re: B&O Gondola color

Jim Mischke
 



Westerfield resin kits came with researched directions and prototype information, be aware that they reflect the best collective wisdom at the time, now some are well over 20 years old.


One would be hard put to find any prototype red B&O steel gondolas in revenue numbers in the STMFC era before 1960.


Red Caboose came out with a red B&O 42' steel flat car, this is a foobie.



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