Date   

Re: Digest Number 9402

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

� In the early/middle 60's I worked in a salmon cannery in
Alaska.� We received both Bunker C and diesel #2 from
small coastal tankers (ships) that was pumped up to tanks
on the hill behind the oil dock.� The Bunker C was used
to fuel the boiler that ran the overhead belt pulleys that
powered the cannery.� The fishing fleet used diesel
exclusively.� I was one of the guys who fueled the boats
and also helped unload the tanker.� Even when heated
the Bunker C was very thick/slow flowing stuff that looked
so thick it made you think you might be able to walk across
the top of the tank it was stored in.� I believe that the
caretakers house also used Bunker C for house heating in
the 9 months or so that the cannery was shut down.
����������������������������������������������
� All - thanks for the correction on the difference between Bunker
C and crude.

� Question - doesn't crude require heating to load/unload (as
��������������������� well as Bunker C)?
��������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������� - Jim

P.S. I'm still hoping to get some links to tank cars being loaded or
������ unloaded with crude (or Bunker C) ... not so concerned about
������ 'era' any more as that doesn't seem to be easily forthcoming.


Bunker C oil use

asychis@...
 

Going with an old brain I seem to remember it had no other use
until plastic's came along.
I have one word for you Ben, plastic!
Used as a fuel in UP turbines, and I believe in oil-fired steam.  Rather corrosive and damaged turbine blades I believe.
 
Jerry Michels


Re: chlorine weathering (was Penn Salt tank cars)

benjamin
 

Just the act of off-loading chlorine (natural state is gaseous) would cool the valving and the body/dome so that moisture would condense just like in your automobile air conditioning.  This would possible mix with any chlorine gas that escape from the connections creating the acids that would eventually corrode the fittings and the car body.

Ben Heinley
Denver, Colorado

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Carl

How quickly people seem to have forgotten the lax environmental controls of
the steam era. I grew up in New Jersey where paint on automobiles would blister
and peel away simply when the cars were outdoors for a few years. The areas
around chemical plants were blighted from the emissions. And stuff can stay
wet for weeks in that part of the country.

Tim O'Connor

>In contact with water, chlorine gas would disproportionate to give a mixture of hydrochloric acid and
>hypochlorus acid (HCl and HClO). (Add alkalai and you get bleach). This would be somewhat corrosive,
>but IMO it wouldn't give rise to large amounts of rusting, unless it stayed wet.
>
>Carl (used to work with Chlorine gas) Gustafson



Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

npin53
 

There was a oil boom in SW North Dakota in the early 50's.  I have three pictures of the Mandan yard, about 1953, on the NP main at this time and there is at least three long strings of black tank cars.  There was also a refinery built around this time on the west side of the Missouri River, by Bismarck.  No pipeline was built, so it was all hauled by rail.

I can post the photos if there is a folder, or share them with anyone interested.  Pictures are not clear, but show numerous tank cars.

The Soo Line and GN also hauled tank trains from the region that this time.

I know wartime traffic, WWII for sure, and to a lesser degree Korea, would have added to tank car traffic too.

Aaron Gjermundson


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Tom Vanwormer
 

In the early days (1890 to 1910) the Gilsonite was moved in Colorado Midland box cars.
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

jack.f.mullen@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Tim O' said

"And then there was that oil-rock in Utah that moved in hopper cars...
I forget now what it was called and can't find it with Google anymore
since the flood of "shale oil" articles has drowned it out."

Are you thinking of Gilsonite?

Jack Mullen


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks Tom. The old gray matter ain't what it used to be...

Tim

And then there was that oil-rock in Utah that moved in
hopper cars... I forget now what it was called and can't
find it with Google anymore since the flood of "shale oil"
articles has drowned it out.
Gilsonite.

Tom Madden


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Tim O'Connor
 

Jack

That's it! Thanks.

Tim


Tim O' said

"And then there was that oil-rock in Utah that moved in hopper cars...
I forget now what it was called and can't find it with Google anymore
since the flood of "shale oil" articles has drowned it out."

Are you thinking of Gilsonite?

Jack Mullen


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Jack Mullen
 

Tim O' said
"And then there was that oil-rock in Utah that moved in hopper cars...
I forget now what it was called and can't find it with Google anymore
since the flood of "shale oil" articles has drowned it out."

Are you thinking of Gilsonite?

Jack Mullen


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote :

Wasn't "natural gasoline" a volatile product that at one point was separated at
the well head ? Sunshine made a Warren tank car model that carried it. I wonder
why they don't just remove the volatiles at the well head.

Tim O'Connor
=============

Google "casing head gasoline", also called Natural Gas Condensate. Apparently if present at natural gas wells, it was separated at the well head. But some oil fields have considerable natural gas mixed with the oil, which originally they just "flared off", burned at the well because there was no commercial market for it. In his case, the lighter factions were well mixed with the crude oil.

Dennis Sorzek
 


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

Yes, Bunker C was the fuel in "oil burning" locomotives. Transportation of
Bunker C usually required tank cars with steam coils inside the tank. There
were also steam coils in the locomotive tender and in the tanks used to
store the fuel.

Jack Burgess

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 9:51 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era


I thought the Southern Pacific burned Bunker C in steam locomotives.

It did have to be warmed up to make it flow.

And then there was that oil-rock in Utah that moved in hopper cars...
I forget now what it was called and can't find it with Google anymore since
the flood of "shale oil" articles has drowned it out.

Tim O'Connor


Jon Miller wrote:
"Going with an old brain I seem to remember [Bunker C] had no other use
until plastic's came along."

Not true. Bunker C (the Navy called it "Navy Special Fuel Oil") was a
common shipboard fuel into the late 1970s. My first ship, a steam-powered
FF 1052-class frigate designed in the 1960s, originally had fuel tank
heaters and thermometers installed in the transfer and service lines to
handle NSFO. It had a very high energy content, but was difficult to handle
compared with distillate fuels as it had to be heated to lower its viscosity
to be able to transfer it from storage to service as well as allow the
burners to atomize it in the boilers.

Ben Hom


------------------------------------
Posted by: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
------------------------------------


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Yahoo Groups Links


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Tom Madden
 

> And then there was that oil-rock in Utah that moved in
> hopper cars... I forget now what it was called and can't
> find it with Google anymore since the flood of "shale oil"
> articles has drowned it out.

Gilsonite.

Tom Madden


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Tim O'Connor
 

I thought the Southern Pacific burned Bunker C in steam locomotives.

It did have to be warmed up to make it flow.

And then there was that oil-rock in Utah that moved in hopper cars...
I forget now what it was called and can't find it with Google anymore
since the flood of "shale oil" articles has drowned it out.

Tim O'Connor

Jon Miller wrote:
"Going with an old brain I seem to remember [Bunker C] had no other use until plastic's came along."

Not true. Bunker C (the Navy called it "Navy Special Fuel Oil") was a common shipboard fuel into the late 1970s. My first ship, a steam-powered FF 1052-class frigate designed in the 1960s, originally had fuel tank heaters and thermometers installed in the transfer and service lines to handle NSFO. It had a very high energy content, but was difficult to handle compared with distillate fuels as it had to be heated to lower its viscosity to be able to transfer it from storage to service as well as allow the burners to atomize it in the boilers.

Ben Hom


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Tim O'Connor
 

Wasn't "natural gasoline" a volatile product that at one point was separated at
the well head ? Sunshine made a Warren tank car model that carried it. I wonder
why they don't just remove the volatiles at the well head.

Tim O'Connor

Ditto. Bunker C (as I recall also known as No. 6 fuel oil) is a refinery product, same as gasoline, kerosene, and various lubricating oils. Crude oil contains all those lighter factions in varying amounts, which is one reason why the N. Dakota crude tends to go BOOM when they scatter the cars around the landscape.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Benjamin Hom
 

Jon Miller wrote:
"Going with an old brain I seem to remember [Bunker C] had no other use until plastic's came along."

Not true. Bunker C (the Navy called it "Navy Special Fuel Oil") was a common shipboard fuel into the late 1970s. My first ship, a steam-powered FF 1052-class frigate designed in the 1960s, originally had fuel tank heaters and thermometers installed in the transfer and service lines to handle NSFO. It had a very high energy content, but was difficult to handle compared with distillate fuels as it had to be heated to lower its viscosity to be able to transfer it from storage to service as well as allow the burners to atomize it in the boilers.


Ben Hom


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Mikebrock
 

Jim Betz writes:

"I'm having trouble locating pics of the tank cars in crude oil service on
the web. Any links/suggestions would be appreciated. Or if there is a book
I need to buy ..."


"As soon as any oil field is very productive, pipelines were built to
transport crude to refineries, a far cheaper means of transportation."

As Tony is well aware, all oil is not equal...there being "lighter" and
"heavier" forms. "Heavier" might not flow through pipelines as well [ clever
word, eh? ] as "light" without additives. Was there "heavy" crude oil being extracted in the 40's? Jim specifically refers to "crude oil" but I would think a variety of oil based commodities should be included as "weathering" elements and, of course, weather has little to do with the subject.

The next point to consider is just what is the "transition era"? I would note that the FT diesel [ the culprit that started the transition ] began to appear in 1941 so I'll vote that the transition era includes WW2.

And, now, having almost exhausted my knowledge bank about oil, I will note that
quite a bit of oil was moved by train during WW2. In fact, according to Decade of the Trains the 1940s", pg 87, 900,000 barrels of oil moved by rail per day in 1943 just to the Atlantic coast refineries. Included in the book is a photo of endless numbers of tank cars in Beaumont, Texas. I have no clue what they were doing there or when but in 1961 you could both see and smell [ if the wind was not out of the north ] the output from refineries in Port Arthur and other points south of Beaumont. The point being...where did the crude come from and how did it get there? As important, where was it going? A large amount was probably moved by tanker but not during 1942-1945.

Mike Brock


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

jon miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 3/27/2015 8:09 AM, destorzek@... [STMFC] wrote:
Bunker C (as I recall also known as No. 6 fuel oil) is a refinery product

    Going with an old brain I seem to remember it had no other use until plastic's came along.
I have one word for you Ben, plastic!

-- 

Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

jon miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 3/27/2015 8:09 AM, destorzek@... [STMFC] wrote:
Bunker C (as I recall also known as No. 6 fuel oil) is a refinery product

    Going with an old brain I seem to remember it had no other use until plastic's came along.
I have one word for you Ben, plastic!

-- 

Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Douglas Harding
 

Jim your question asks about the transition ere. I think Tony has been pretty clear that by then crude tended to move in pipelines. But in the early years, before pipelines were build, crude did move in tankcars. Especially when dealing with smaller oil fields and smaller refineries. A new oil field could generate rail traffic until a pipeline was constructed to that field, as witnessed in North Dakota today. A better question might be “where were oil fields located in the transition ere?” and “where were pipelines located in that same period?” Once you have narrowed the territory, then start looking for photos from local sources.

 

You mentioned GATX and UTLX cars, ie after the X began to indicate private ownership of the car. Yes these two leasing companies dominated the petroleum transportation needs for both crude and, I believe, most refined petroleum products. And as Tony points out most photographers did not know (or care) what was in those tankcars. There are photos of long strings of tanks cars in trains transporting refined products. Esp during WWII when the German U-boats made Atlantic shipping dangerous, much petroleum product moved from Gulf coast refineries to the east coast via train. That is until the Big Inch pipe line was constructed in 1942.

 

I have a photo of the M&StL yard in Albert Lea MN showing a long string of tank cars. Probably dates from the 50’s, and those tankcars probably contained refined petroleum products. But the photo indicates the M&StL, which never served any refineries or crude producers, handled a good share  of petroleum products moving from refineries downs south, along its north/south line, north to the Twin Cities and beyond. And the M&StL distributed a lot of gasoline and other refined products to oil jobbers throughout its territory.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

destorzek@...
 




---In STMFC@..., <b.hom@...> wrote :


Not so fast, my friend. Bunker C is NOT crude oil. It's referred to a residual fuel as it's what's left after the more volatile cuts of crude have been boiled off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/Fuel_oil


Ben Hom
=================

Ditto. Bunker C (as I recall also known as No. 6 fuel oil) is a refinery product, same as gasoline, kerosene, and various lubricating oils. Crude oil contains all those lighter factions in varying amounts, which is one reason why the N. Dakota crude tends to go BOOM when they scatter the cars around the landscape.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Tank Cars to/from oil fields in the transition era

Benjamin Hom
 

Jim Betz wrote:
"There are some uses of crude that a pipeline can not be justified for - such as many industrial steam boilers for heating large buildings. Yes, diesel was replacing those in the transition era ... but there were still a lot of them using Bunker C in the last decade of this list's focus. Not to mention the last of the steam locos themselves ..."
Not so fast, my friend. Bunker C is NOT crude oil. It's referred to a residual fuel as it's what's left after the more volatile cuts of crude have been boiled off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/Fuel_oil


Ben Hom

61961 - 61980 of 194691