Date   

Re: Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Parker wrote:

 
What you say about the variety in the chlorine cars makes sense.  So at 10-11 kgal, they must have used 70-ton trucks?

     No. I have a photo of a 10,500-gal. Hooker chlorine car marked "CAPY 100 000."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Swift SRLX 1098

 

Looks diagonal to me. Just left of the door, you can see a low wide bump on
the roof, and left of it is a narrow one.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@...> on behalf of STMFC List
<STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 1:34 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Swift SRLX 1098







Ted Culotta has a photo for sale on ebay showing SRLX 1098, a wood-sided
reefer with a sliding plug door. I can't make out the ends and roof very
well, but it appears to be a flat panel roof (maybe a rectangular panel
roof?). Does any one have any info on what kind of roof and ends this car
had?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: first use of large NYC logo

Rick Jesionowski
 

I did one of the experimental cars, the 50' one, the Canada Southern Site shows what lot the car came from but the picture in the NYC Color Guide is not that type of car.  I used a Branchline 50' Box but used 4-4 ends to match the picture. Here is the finished car:


Rick Jesionowski


Re: [EXTERNAL] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Dave Parker
 

Elden:

What you say about the variety in the chlorine cars makes sense.  So at 10-11 kgal, they must have used 70-ton trucks?

Also, we were recently discussing 3 kgal cars in the context of Ethyl. Did chlorine ever go that small?

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Swift SRLX 1098

Richard Townsend
 

Ted Culotta has a photo for sale on ebay showing SRLX 1098, a wood-sided reefer with a sliding plug door. I can't make out the ends and roof very well, but it appears to be a flat panel roof (maybe a rectangular panel roof?). Does any one have any info on what kind of roof and ends this car had?
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon
 

 
.


Re: you say your modeling leaves something to be desired?

Douglas Harding
 

Jared, No, just a transfer. Current location is cutting the salary 33%, I can’t afford to stay. Sadly the new basement is useless for a layout, I wouldn’t but the neighbor’s dog down there. So the layout goes into storage. But there is a room upstairs that can become a model building room. So maybe I will get to that stash of Westerfield, Sunshine, etc. (necessary freight car content;)

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: [EXTERNAL] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Dave;

You are right. In the case of chlorine, there were many different users, and those desiring a small load (like maybe a small water treatment plant in my area) could get it in a 4k-6k car; those needing more could ask for a 10-11k car. Anhydrous and LPG generally traveled in the big cars.

The 105's had an interesting evolution. Different products could require thicker or thinner tanks, thus a variety of pressure designations on the sub-classes (there were also ICC 105A500, and A600), and also an aluminum version for 100, 200 and 300 psi, for various fertilizers not to be loaded in steel tanks.

The 106's were merely a variant that included multiple removable units (at 500 or 800 psi per), for things like water treatment plants in which limited storage was available at each location. Anhydrous could also be shipped in these cars.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 1:20 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars (UNCLASSIFIED)



This is out of my era, and I have not studied the ICC 105 cars in any detail. But my sense (or guess) is that anhydrous ammonia would have been carried in the larger (10 kgal and up cars); its density is just over 5 lbs per gallon. As per Richard's original comment, 6 kgal cars would make the most sense for chlorine at about 12 lbs per gallon. LPG is also "light", so would logically have been transported in the larger cars.

Or so it seems to me.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA




Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: [EXTERNAL] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Dave Parker
 

This is out of my era, and I have not studied the ICC 105 cars in any detail.  But my sense (or guess) is that anhydrous ammonia would have been carried in the larger (10 kgal and up cars); its density is just over 5 lbs per gallon.  As per Richard's original comment, 6 kgal cars would make the most sense for chlorine at about 12 lbs per gallon.  LPG is also "light", so would logically have been transported in the larger cars.

Or so it seems to me.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: [EXTERNAL] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Steve;

Anhydrous Ammonia was carried in ICC 105A300 (obsolete 8/31/56), ICC 105A300-W, ICC 105A400, and ICC 105A400-W cars, and were just like the large (10k-11k) tank cars used in chlorine service, and also LPG, and some other pressurized products. They were Steel Forge-Welded or Fusion-Welded Tank with Manway Nozzle, Insulated, Top Unloading Arrangement Required, Safety Valve (225 psi), Bottom Outlet Prohibited, Bottom Washout Prohibited. The Atlas car is, fortunately or unfortunately, the best offering in HO RTR. I have an old OVL brass model I prefer for detail. The old AHM car post-dates most interests on this list, and was used in different service. The BIG 105's are sixties creations mostly.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:10 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars



I would like to modify the anhydrous ammonia fertilizer thread a bit. In msg #107176 Richard Hendrickson stated, in part,

"... In the forseeable future, we're unlikely to get models of 3K and 4K ICC-105s or of cars with acid domes, but 6K ICC-105s were in liquid chlorine and similar service for many private owners, as well as Hooker, so RTR styrene models of those cars are certainly possible...."

I am looking for accurate tank cars that actually carried anhydrous ammonia in the eastern US in the early 50's. In Feb 2012 when Richard wrote that, the exquisite models available to us today were not yet in sight. Hopefully, the BLI 6000 gal car will join those ranks.

Would Richard's "similar service" include anhydrous ammonia being carried in the same type car used for chlorine?

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL







Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Tank car ratio?

Tony Thompson
 

Stan Agar wrote:

 
Can anyone help with a rough ratio of tank cars in plain black to those in other colors and also with large ‘Billboard’ lettering? I have been buying and building mostly plain-Jane black cars with just reporting marks and only a few brighter cars as that’s what seems to turn up in photos. I’m aware that location will be a factor and maybe the tendency of photographers to take pictures of colourful cars rather then the plainer ones (Been there, done that). My interest is the early 1950’s in the south east.

     RIchard Hendrickson used to say that there were at least 9 or 10 black cars for every "billboard" one, and he suspected the ratio was even higher. (Good luck finding layouts which reflect that.) But decisive evidence is hard to find.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Tank car ratio? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Group;

I agree with what all are saying, and only add:

1) The vast majority of "big owner" tank cars (GATX, UTLX, SHPX, and NATX), were black, with lease stenciling. That is for my time, 131,772 cars of roughly 138,000 total

2) The remainder of large lessees or owners were DuPont, PPG, Monsanto, Koppers, Shell Chemical, Hooker & Dow, some of whom had colorful tank cars, and some not (Koppers had some red cars, and many black) Some went from colorful to black in our timeframe.

3) People usually took photos of the photogenic (i.e., colorful) tank cars.

4) That probably means we have dozens of colorful tank car photos for every one in black (aside from the builders photo collections).

5) If you model one of the owners/lessors in #2 above (Hooker, and add Hercules, Stauffer, Gulf or Belcher), you get to model a potentially colorful fleet. If you are modeling everywhere else, your fleet is probably dominated by ordinary-looking black tank cars. Perhaps 20 to 1 or higher.

My fleet ratio looks like this: For every 25 cars: 6-7 GATX, 6 UTLX, 3-4 SHPX, 2 NATX, then 7 other assorted cars (keep in mind there were a lot of really small owners, most of whom also had black cars), most black.

Back when I was talking about a lot of these topics with Richard Hendrickson, he helped a lot in framing a talk I gave on this at the 2005 WPM. He, also, fully agreed with these points.

If you want to have a larger discussion about tank car classes and such, and how that folds in here, let me know!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 11:25 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] Tank car ratio?



On 2015-06-30, at 4:10 AM, stanrail@... [STMFC] wrote:



Can anyone help with a rough ratio of tank cars in plain black to those in other colors and also with large 'Billboard' lettering? I have been buying and building mostly plain-Jane black cars with just reporting marks and only a few brighter cars as that's what seems to turn up in photos. I'm aware that location will be a factor and maybe the tendency of photographers to take pictures of colourful cars rather then the plainer ones (Been there, done that). My interest is the early 1950's in the south east.


I've just been compiling fleet numbers from the 1955 Tank Car Capacities volume. Although this volume doesn't offer any information about colours, at that time there were about 185,000 tank cars in service. Of that total, a little over 47,000 - or roughly 25% - were Union Tank Line cars, which as far as I know only appeared in black. Add to that the 52,000 cars reported by General American - about 30% of the total fleet - and although they did have some more colourful lessee schemes, I believe they were mostly black as well. And in case you're wondering, Shippers Car Line came in a distant third with 12,000 cars.

So this suggests that for every four tank cars in service at that time, 1 was a UTLX car, and 1 was a GATX car, and that they were most likely black.

Ian Cranstone
lamontc@...
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada




Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: you say your modeling leaves something to be desired?

Jared Harper
 

Doug,

Are you retiring?

Jared Harper


---In STMFC@..., <doug.harding@...> wrote :

Yes Bohn ventilator hoods. I could not remember the name and my library is packed for a move that occurs July 1.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Tank car ratio?

Alex Schneider
 


I spent the summer of 1965 working at a pharmaceutical plant that received raw materials by tank car, and almost all of them were black. Aluminum or silver cars were a distant second, and white somewhat less common. I doubt the mix was more colorful during the era covered by this list.

I would hazard a guess that the tank car owners realized that no one would notice their cars except in bad situations, such as derailments, and the less visible they were in the news photographs, the better.

Alex Schneider
 

From: "Ian Cranstone lamontc@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tank car ratio?



On 2015-06-30, at 4:10 AM, stanrail@... [STMFC] wrote:

 
Can anyone help with a rough ratio of tank cars in plain black to those in other colors and also with large ‘Billboard’ lettering? I have been buying and building mostly plain-Jane black cars with just reporting marks and only a few brighter cars as that’s what seems to turn up in photos. I’m aware that location will be a factor and maybe the tendency of photographers to take pictures of colourful cars rather then the plainer ones (Been there, done that). My interest is the early 1950’s in the south east.

I've just been compiling fleet numbers from the 1955 Tank Car Capacities volume.  Although this volume doesn't offer any information about colours, at that time there were about 185,000 tank cars in service.  Of that total, a little over 47,000 - or roughly 25% - were Union Tank Line cars, which as far as I know only appeared in black.  Add to that  the 52,000 cars reported by General American - about 30% of the total fleet - and although they did have some more colourful lessee schemes, I believe they were mostly black as well.  And in case you're wondering, Shippers Car Line came in a distant third with 12,000 cars.

So this suggests that for every four tank cars in service at that time, 1 was a UTLX car, and 1 was a GATX car, and that they were most likely black.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada






Anhydrous Ammonia in Tank Cars

pennsylvania1954
 

I would like to modify the anhydrous ammonia fertilizer thread a bit. In msg #107176 Richard Hendrickson stated, in part,

"... In the forseeable future, we're unlikely to get models of 3K and 4K ICC-105s or of cars with acid domes, but 6K ICC-105s were in liquid chlorine and similar service for many private owners, as well as Hooker, so RTR styrene models of those cars are certainly possible...."

I am looking for accurate tank cars that actually carried anhydrous ammonia in the eastern US in the early 50's.  In Feb 2012 when Richard wrote that, the exquisite models available to us today were not yet in sight. Hopefully, the BLI 6000 gal car will join those ranks.

Would Richard's "similar service" include anhydrous ammonia being carried in the same type car used for chlorine?

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL



Re: Tank car ratio?

Ian Cranstone
 

On 2015-06-30, at 4:10 AM, stanrail@... [STMFC] wrote:


 
Can anyone help with a rough ratio of tank cars in plain black to those in other colors and also with large ‘Billboard’ lettering? I have been buying and building mostly plain-Jane black cars with just reporting marks and only a few brighter cars as that’s what seems to turn up in photos. I’m aware that location will be a factor and maybe the tendency of photographers to take pictures of colourful cars rather then the plainer ones (Been there, done that). My interest is the early 1950’s in the south east.

I've just been compiling fleet numbers from the 1955 Tank Car Capacities volume.  Although this volume doesn't offer any information about colours, at that time there were about 185,000 tank cars in service.  Of that total, a little over 47,000 - or roughly 25% - were Union Tank Line cars, which as far as I know only appeared in black.  Add to that  the 52,000 cars reported by General American - about 30% of the total fleet - and although they did have some more colourful lessee schemes, I believe they were mostly black as well.  And in case you're wondering, Shippers Car Line came in a distant third with 12,000 cars.

So this suggests that for every four tank cars in service at that time, 1 was a UTLX car, and 1 was a GATX car, and that they were most likely black.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada


Re: a truck to wish for

mark <caboose9792@...>
 

If you could come up with drawings & photos for what you want it would make them much more likely to happen. I dont need any of them badly enough to do the reserch than the drawings then the tooling. Having a data pack avalable would help your case for any or all.

Mark Rickert
caboose9792@...


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
To: stmfc
Sent: 30-Jun-2015 00:19:43 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] a truck to wish for

 


I'm adding this to my wish list -- the Dalman-Andrews truck !

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371367529256

With Brian retired from making new any more trucks, I don't suppose we'll
ever get these.. or the Chrysler truck, or any 50 ton roller bearings (more
than one unfortunately), or a 70 ton National Type B ...

Tim O'


Re: first use of large NYC logo

Brad Smith
 

Found it. I was looking in the wrong place. At least there is a model available of the car. 

Brad

Sent from Brad's iPod

On Jun 30, 2015, at 6:26 AM, Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Brad Smith wrote:
"That is an informative article (Terry Link's).  Strangely, these two cars are not mentioned."

Actually, he does.  It's in between the information on Early Bird and experimental "Cigar Band" schemes.  Where do you think I pulled the information and the link to the photo of NYC 220539?


Ben Hom


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Anhydrous Ammonia Fertilizer (was Re: Her

Clark Propst
 

We had a large fertilizer plant built online here in 54. I have a article where the company states they are starting to use ‘ammonia’ at the time.  They also referred to their products as plant food.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: first use of large NYC logo

Benjamin Hom
 

Brad Smith wrote:
"That is an informative article (Terry Link's).  Strangely, these two cars are not mentioned."
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm

Actually, he does.  It's in between the information on Early Bird and experimental "Cigar Band" schemes.  Where do you think I pulled the information and the link to the photo of NYC 220539?


Ben Hom


Tank car ratio?

Stanley Agar
 

Hi,

Can anyone help with a rough ratio of tank cars in plain black to those in other colors and also with large ‘Billboard’ lettering? I have been buying and building mostly plain-Jane black cars with just reporting marks and only a few brighter cars as that’s what seems to turn up in photos. I’m aware that location will be a factor and maybe the tendency of photographers to take pictures of colourful cars rather then the plainer ones (Been there, done that). My interest is the early 1950’s in the south east.

Stan Agar

In New Zealand, modelling the L&N and interchanges.

(So south of most of you).