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Tichy models of ACL flats and gondolas
Jim Mischke
I recall that the Tichy flat car and related composite gondola are reasonable Atlantic Coast Line prototypes. These survived in very limited numbers past 1960. A couple questions. My impression is that by 1960 they were held to on-line service only. Is that true? Would there be any reasonable excuse for an interchange escapee in 1960? Also, wasn't ACL lettering aluminum, not white? If so, are there any appropriate aluminum ACL decals for these cars? |
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Car service rules
Paul Catapano
PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.
I was under the impression that the car service rules GENERALLY pertained only to 40' boxcar's. Paul Catapano Winchester, Va. |
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Re: Car Service Rules
lstt100
Easiest explanation is the rules themselves.
Rule 1 Home cars shall not be used for movement of traffic beyond the limites of the home road when the use of other suitable cars under these rules is practicable. Rule 2(A) Foreign cars on a direct connection must be forwarded to the home road loaded or empty in manner provided below. Rule 2(B) If empty at junction with the home road and loading at that point via the home is not available they must subject to Rule 6, be delivered to it at that junction, unless an exception to requirement be agreed to be roads involved. When holding road has no physical connection with the home road andis obliged to use an intermediate road or roads, to place the car on home rails under the provision of this paragraph and the car has records rights to such intermediate road or roads, it may be so delivered. Rule 2(C) If empty at other than junction points with the home road, cars under this rule may be. !. loaded via any route so that the home road will participate in the freight rate, or, 2, moved locally in the direction of the home road. 3. Moved locally in an opposite direction from the home road, or delivered to a short line or a switching road, if to be loaded for delivery on or movement via the home road, or, 4. Delivered empty to home road at any junction point subject to Rule 6, or, 5. Delivered empty to road from which originally received under load at the junction where received, or at another junction mutually agreed upon, if such road is also a direct connectoin of the home road, or 6. returned empty to the delivering road when handled only in switching service. These were the rules. How a specific agent, terminal or division handled the empties was up to the people operating the railroad. If there were any Special Orders in effect, they had to be consulted and complied with. To show everyone how confusing it was to even professional railroaders. Imagine a WP plain boxcar being loaded with lumber from California to Buffalo, NY routed: WP-Salt Lake City-DRGW-Pueblo-MP-St.Louis-NKP. Once unloaded car was reloaded at Buffalo with small electric motors for Spokane, WA routed NKP-Chicago-CBQ-St.Paul-NP. This is in compliance with rules account it is being loaded in correct direction and will be located in an adjacent Car Service Map territory. Once car was unloaded at Spokane and no load was available what happens to the empty? NP has no direct connection to WP. Before 1953 and SCO90 which authorized the short home routing of empty plain boxcars, car would have had to been routed eastward back to CB&Q at Twin Cities and if load was not found on way east car would have to return to Chicago and lacking a load on CB&Q to get car back home, CB&Q would deliver car to NKP at Chicago who could look for a load and if not available would be obligated to return car to MP at St.Louis to get is started back home. When a car was located in an area that had no direct connection to owner, the railroad was obligated by record rights to return the car in the reverse of the loaded movement. Much of this was solved when SCO90 was implemented in 1953 and short home routes were specified to get cars back home to owners with no regard to record rights. SCO90 charts specified who would take what owners cars at what junction points. Dan Holbrook |
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Re: B&O Gondola color
Jim Mischke
Westerfield resin kits came with researched directions and prototype information, be aware that they reflect the best collective wisdom at the time, now some are well over 20 years old. One would be hard put to find any prototype red B&O steel gondolas in revenue numbers in the STMFC era before 1960. Red Caboose came out with a red B&O 42' steel flat car, this is a foobie. |
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Re: Car Service Rules
Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
OOPs!
The above should read … “2 out of three” … Sorry about the typo. Cheers, Bill Keene Irvine, CA |
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Re: flat car, NC&StL - Apology
WILLIAM PARDIE
A few weeks ago there was a discussion on the Tichy NC&StL flat car. I stated that there was
an article with drawings on this car in the March 1989 Mainline Modeler. As I was starting to convert the car that I did for SP&S bak to the proper car I dug out this issue of Mainline Modeler. The article in that issue was Mont Switzer's excellent offering on building the car along with a grader load. After more searching I determined that the article that I was thinking of was on an ACL flat that was very similar to the Tichy car in the May 1984 Mainline Modeler. I apologize for the fuzzyness of my memory. Mainline Modeler presented such a wealth of information over it's 25 year run. Articles that were not pertinate when the issue came out became pertinate years later. A very treasured time is to just sit and review this collection. So much has been forgotten. Bill Pardie |
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Re: Car Service Rules
Bill Keene <wakeene@...>
Hello Jim & Group,
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I have been lurking on this thread and have greatly enjoyed the knowledge that has been learned. That said, I am a bit confused by Jim’s question… Would not any foreign road car loaded in Roseburg head eastward would be considered a proper loading per the Car Service Rules? I do not believe that the “rules” specifically state that the foreign car must be loaded and shipped to a destination on that specific foreign railroad as long as it is headed more or less in the general direction of that home road. Let’s say that load of plywood is billed to a purchaser located in Vinita, Oklahoma, (served by either the MKT or SLSF … I will let you choose which of the two) and that plywood is loaded into a PRR box car. As long as that PRR box car is getting closer to home — closer to Chicago or St. Louis, the two major connection points as an example — the car is being moved in compliance with the Car Service Rules. With the general population ratio of foreign road to home road cars on the SP being anywhere from 3 out of three to perhaps 4 out of 5 box cars it is doubtful if there would be an issue or difficulty having an empty foreign road car available to send eastward. The above is just my thoughts and a crude understanding of the “rules”. I am looking forward to learning more. Cheers, Bill Keene Irvine, CA
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Re: Broadway Limited 6000 gallon chemical tank car
mwbauers
The system they are using is creating shortages several months before the product is even built.
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That just doesn’t seem to be a healthy sign that the bean counters in charge really know what they are doing. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi
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Re: Broadway Limited 6000 gallon chemical tank car
SUVCWORR@...
Dealer orders were due 9/4 with a delivery date of spring 2016.
Rich Orr -----Original Message-----
From: tony tony@... [STMFC] To: STMFC Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2015 1:35 am Subject: Re: [STMFC] Broadway Limited 6000 gallon chemical tank car
I will definitely want a Penn Salt and a PPG car, maybe others, but these are some way off, are they Not?
Tony Thompson
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Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..
Schuyler Larrabee
Justin May’s link to this photo: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mkt/mkt2709abp.jpg Shows by the shadow of the ladder that bent ladders not completely parallel to the side of the car are not just a modeler’s problem, but the prototype’s problem too . . .
Schuyler
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Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..
Armand Premo
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Speaking of auto boxcars (XA) conspicuously absent
are NYC cars.Armand Premo
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Intermountain kits & RTR for sale
genegreen1942@...
FOR SALE. Prices as noted below. INTERMOUNTAIN N SCALE 65773 postwar NYC Pacemaker 1948-49 w/Youngstown door 4 available at $10 each plus shipping. 65777 postwar NYC Pacemaker 1960 w/Youngstown door 6 available at $10 each plus shipping. 65778 postwar NYC Pacemaker 1960 w/Superior door 6 available at $10 each plus shipping. PLEASE NOTE: The above are N scale. Below is HO scale. HO Scale undecorated Intermountain kits. All are new, untouched, gray plastic in original boxes. Price per kit is $16.00, plus actual shipping charge. Quantities available as indicated.
ITEM......DESCRIPTION......................................QTY 40495...40' PS-1 standard box car w/7' door....1 40497...40' PS-1 standard box car w/8' door....1 40499...40' PS-1 box car w/6' door.....................1 40599...R-40-23 refrigerator car........................1 40799...10' IH AAR box car 40' w/6'door .......6 40899...10'-6" high AAR box car 40' w/6' door..6 41099...12 panel 40' box car w/6' door.........3 41899...Modified AAR 40' box car....................1 42750A..Caswell gondola with AB Brake.........2 42750K..Caswell gondola with K Brake...........2 42999...Stock car K brake..................................1 43299...Milk car kit..............................................1 CCS1199..ATSF early steel caboose..............1 INTERMOUNTAIN RTR Freight Cars (NOT KITS) 45835-03...40' mod. '37 AAR box car 10'6" Santa Fe Bx-37-Chief...1 $29.60 46072-12...40' WW II emergency box car CNW...................................1 $24.00 46071-16...40' WW II emergency box car Santa Fe............................1 $24.00 Please contact me off list at genegreen1942 at yahoo dot com. Gene Green Out in the Badlands of New Mexico |
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Re: Any Recommendations on the C&O Freight Cars 1937-1946 book?
water.kresse@...
Gary,
Ted's version was a copy of a second C&O Freight Department publication made in 1945. A couple of those originals have surfaced recently I believe. Carl Shaver is still Chief C&O FC Mentor. Spreading the tasks around made it do-able.
Al
From: "gary laakso vasa0vasa@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2015 12:48:53 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Any Recommendations on the C&O Freight Cars 1937-1946 book? Thank you both for your reviews; I ordered a copy of the book.
gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
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Re: RE; Car Service Rules
George Eichelberger
I have no doubt the Southern did not send cars off line simply because they had an excessive supply. There are multiple Southern Railway AFEs (Authorization for Expenditures) available that specifically mention positive per diem balances as part of the rationale to purchase the equipment. Is the comment about western and eastern roads based on specific documentation or someone’s assumptions? Does the extensive AAR documentation on car availability and car purchases in the years after the war confirm this eastern-western theory?
I would be very interested in seeing any primary research information that describes cars being trapped by the ACL, SAL, L&N or Southern. I recognize that various railroads entered bankruptcy during the depression, after the war and into the (forbidden) modern era. I also recognize that of the railroads I mention, only the SAL ever went through a bankruptcy, none were dismembered, abandoned a large part of their system or found themselves in such dire straits that they sold or merged themselves out of existence. (I believe it is correct to consider the RI, MILW and SP “western” roads?) |
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Re: Car Service Rules
Dan and all,
Please remember that in all of this thread what -I'm- talking about/interested in is the ubiquitous box car and not about special purpose cars or cars with "return to sender" on them or cars that are "contaminated" by the load(s) they carry. Your last response helps - but it still prompts me to ask ... just how much effort - or delayed delivery to the shipper - did the RRs really go to in order to satisfy the car service rules? I'm guessing that most shippers were unhappy with any delays in the delivery of the car (for most loads for most shippers). Storing product (what ever product it is) for extended time can be a problem for the shipper (additional cost). Using the Roseburg plywood mill as an example - I would suspect that the car service rules (using a foreign car) were primarily used for cars that were already in Roseburg ... that were being continuously re-supplied by empties from Eugene. And those re-supply empties would definitely be using/considering the car service rules. I'm operating under the assumption that Roseburg - as a city/area - had a definite imbalance in terms of loads in -vs- loads out ... the mills there would be producing far more loads than would be 'consumed' by the population/industries in Roseburg. So there had to be a constant supply of empties coming to Roseburg from Eugene (and possibly elsewhere). But if the supply of foreign empties wasn't keeping up with the demand - right there in Roseburg - then I would expect that Roseburg (and then Eugene) would be using whatever box car is available ... even if it meant sending a GN or an SP car to St. Louis. In fact - if I understand the basic idea of "keeping the cars busy (loaded more than not)" correctly ===> any box car that took a -load- to Roseburg would probably be the "first choice" for a car to be loaded in Roseburg. Yes, they would have tried to use the car service rules - but it doesn't make a lot of sense to haul that car empty to Eugene ... and another empty from Eugene to Roseburg ... in order to satisfy the car service rules. Your response seems to imply that it was actually more profitable to use a foreign car for a shipment to a foreign destination. I 'sort of' understand why you are saying that - but it just doesn't seem to "fit" with my understanding of how revenue flowed for loaded cars versus empties. My suspicion is that the reluctance to send home road cars off road would be directly related to longer term trends (over time) - rather than the immediate need to supply a car for a load (now/short term). And similarly if the car is from a foreign road ... but the load isn't to a destination that makes sense (by the car service rules). In fact the car service rules themselves have "wiggle words" in them in that the further you go down the list the less "correspondence" there is between the destination and the owning RR. Yes, obviously, if the car selected can be loaded, transported, and unloaded ... all on home rails and using a home road car ... the revenue was significantly increased for the RR ===> assuming that it was going to a destination where it can easily be re-used for another load. Going anywhere. But I also suspect that those kind of loads were relatively rare (for box cars). Am I all wet here or do I have the basics right? - Jim B. |
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Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..
The red caboose cars are pretty accurate for the SOO, square corners, and Seaboard, round corners. 40 ft auto cars were very prototype specific. It's not the Red Caboose, Intermountain actually, doesn't care it's that they have to amortize the models. Information on these cars exists in the list archives. Brian J. Carlson On Sep 6, 2015, at 1:06 PM, bill stanton bill_stanton60@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..
bill stanton
Wow...this is really disappointing...it seems that almost nothing is right about this car...
I knew Red Caboose wasn't perfect, but I thought they cared more than this sorry example...this isn't any better than Walthers (which I no longer purchase)...
Live and learn...I really must research more before I buy...
In any case, thanks very much for the info From: STMFC@... on behalf of Justin May jmay59@... [STMFC]
Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2015 9:47 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?.. > What is wrong with the recently released IM/Red Caboose car (it seems to match data in my 1949 ORER)? |
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Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..
bill stanton
ok...thanks...I just measured and the red caboose rr-38580 has 6 ft doors [☹]
________________________________ From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2015 9:21 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?.. The MKT 40-ft steel auto cars had two eight-foot doors and improved Dreadnaught ends. I don't think the IM car has either of these features. Fenton, Speedwitch offered a SS MKT car kit. Bill Welch |
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Re: Any Recommendations on the C&O Freight Cars 1937-1946 book?
gary laakso
Thank you both for your reviews; I ordered a copy of the book. gary laakso south of Mike Brock
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Re: MKT boxcar color and slogan circa 1947-1948?..
Justin May <jmay59@...>
What is wrong with the recently released IM/Red Caboose car (it seems to match data in my 1949 ORER)?Bill, The prototype series were as follows: 45001-45385, 385 cars built 1945 through 1946 from Youngstown steel body parts. They featured a 7'/8' door combination, Universal 200W hand brakes, with Miner draft gear. The cars also featured alternate center riveting on the sides of the car, and were 10'6" interior height with 4/4 IDE ends. In 1962 and again in 1965, the cars were renumbered into 2400-2599 and 2600-2749. I could not locate any of the as constructed photos online, however, there are several examples of detail photos of the car features. The most glaring error is that the Red Caboose is a 10'0" IH car whereas the prototype is 10'6" IH. The side sill needs to be extended further so that it is deeper, and the ACR pattern applied. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mkt/mkt2697akg.jpg http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/mkt/mkt2709abp.jpg http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=93479&Page=2 http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3888766 http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2385682 A better alternative to this car would be to use an older Front Range 4090 40' double door series kit, replace the ends with Branchline 4-4 IDE ends, shape the side sill using styrene, replace the roof with a Murphy panel roof, apply Archer ACR rivet decals, and other specific details, then letter with the new Speedwitch MKT decals. Justin May |
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