Date   

Re: Car Weights

mopacfirst
 

Mee too.  CB&T cars, built the year they were first produced, or perhaps the year after.  Fabulous stainless weight.

Stuck then into the cars with lots of Goo.

Five years later they all bowed in the middle.  But by that time I had figured out how hard it was to make a CB&T car look good, so I didn't care that much.

Yes, I harvested all the stainless weights that were in the inventory of cars I had.  The rest of the contents of those boxes went into the recycle bin.  The weights are now used to hold down the roofwalks of Branchline cars while the cement dries.  Sort of like the three former Fairbanks-Morse locomotives which have been  turned into flatcars to carry ingots at the former Cameron forge shop in Houston.

Ron Merrick


Re: Car Weights

Anspach Denny <danspachmd@...>
 

I should have emphasized that in my own experience not once, i.e. at no time,  has Goo or Barge cement ever caused styrene or resin distortion or break-through problems for me, especially over time.  I do know that closing parts over pools of solvent not yet wicked off in full contact mode (as described by Al Westerfield) can cause problems with the trapped solvent eventually eating its way to freedom.. This same solvent effect is why the bond is so strong and resilient, however, as demonstrated by the surface etching that is evident when the bonds have been deliberately broken or exposed.  

I have also become a fan of Micro Clear, and what might be the same thing, Canopy Cement. What I do like about it is the easy water clean up, and the fact that the bond seems to be not that tight that it can be mechanically undone without undue material damage. This same characteristic would also seem to me to be a cautionary choice in securing weights. Clear silicone ATV sealant is also an absolutely excellent material, but…even less, .it is not a real adhesive, a truly cautionary characteristic when one is trying for a lifetime bond in a sealed model (it seems to adhere to surfaces mechanically when cured by inserting itself and keying into any micro nook and cranny it can get itself into).


Another source for  filler or surfacers are those epoxy putties used by plumbers and sculptors.  These putties have been expanded by introduction of vinyl microballoons, which make them much less dense, more lightweight, and easier to mold, shape, and sand. I have created my own putties by simply mixing epoxy (usually with a toothpick on a pad of aluminum foil) and folding in some micro balloons (consistency of flour) to the thickness of body that I like.  Like all epoxies, however, the working life is limited, and mistakes cannot be easily retrieved or corrected. 

None of these cements, real or wannabes, will hold as you would like  if the surfaces to be joined are not clean and clear of oils or wax, or….paint!  I have broken off old contact cement joints to find that the solvent did not penetrate the painted surfaces enough to truly bond to the substrate, the bond holding only by the natural adhesion of the intervening paint (ACC notoriously also will not safely adhere to paint).

Lesson: there are no perfect or one-size-fits-all cements or adhesives, and any one of them have *fatal* characteristics when inappropriately used or applied. In this regard, the modeler is best served by learning and being conversant with the pluses and minuses of a wide palette of adhesives.  About the only common adhesives that I have fully rejected for any modeling usage over the years have been flour-and-water, mucilage, and chewing gum; and perhaps even they may have sterling characteristics of which I am yet unaware! 

 

Denny




Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento





Re: Car Weights

pburr47@...
 

For challenging applications this may be worth a look. Horizon Hobbies distributes in the US for these Brits. Be sure to also look at their excellent glue applications chart.

Http://www.deluxematerials.com/aeroliquidgravity.html


Re: Car Weights

frograbbit602
 

Todd Horton wrote, "I was wondering what other modelers are using for car weights on close sided cars? I am looking at the most cost effective for doing this."
I have used many of the suggested weights provided by others; however, one of my settled upon favorites is the metal punch outs from metal electrical boxes used in residential or commercial wiring, eg. the outlet box. The punch outs weight two grams each and are free. To obtain the punch outs you have to know an electrican to save them for you. I am lucky enough to have one that does it for me. My other favorite is the sheet lead others have suggested obtained from a local plumbing supply.
Lester Breuer


Re: Car Weights

Mikebrock
 


Denny writes:
 
Have you...or anyone...used any of the long set up [ 2 ton or Epoxy steel ] epoxies for securing weights?
 
Mike Brock


Re: Car Weights

Anspach Denny <danspachmd@...>
 

My standard car weights have been variously lead type, sheet lead, and piles of hard-to-use, or unusable foreign coinage, i.e. Francs, Deutch marks, Baht, Rubles, Pesos. and Kroner.  All have been secured  with Goo (earlier from c. 1952)), and Barge Cement (last 20 years). The solvent in the cement, plus the elasticity makes certain that the weights do not break loose due to mechanical shock, or the differential expansion and contraction of dissimilar materials.  The solvent in these contact cements is not (NOT) a problem with styrene or resin if applied properly (the solvent is allowed to wick off to full contact mode before the materials are applied together).  I have also used Andy S’s machine screw application successfully. 

There is nothing, nothing more discouraging to find sealed and closed models with loose interior weights!

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento





Re: Ace Hardware's Two-Ton Epoxy

Andy Harman
 

Squadron putty?  Does anyone still use it?  I dont even use the red talc putty anymore due to the softness and long dry time.  And it's vastly superior to Squadron.  

I understand that model companies repackage and mark up common materials from other industries.  Like tire weights for instance.  Or MEK.  Or methylene chloride.  But why does it have to be crap like Squadron?  They could buy Napa, Nitro-stan, or Bondo oxide putty by the barrel and sell it in dinky tubes at hobby shops.  With the specialty product industry, it seems silly to go to an auto parts store to buy putty to use on models.  Strange that in my 57 years on the planet, the hobby industry has never produced a usable putty, when the stuff exists and has been out there all along.

No matter.  I have two tubes of the NAPA stuff - enough for two lifetimes.  I havent touched it in 14 years and probably never will.  I use Cyanopoxy for all my filling as well as all my mixed media gluing, and even styrene to styrene if there is any risk of solvent damage.  I don't even bother to buy conventional CA like Zap anymore.  Dries up in the bottle in 2 months anyway.  CP lasts a year.  Trowel, spritz, and sand 30 seconds later.  Using CP for filler is like compiling programs on a top of the line PC in 30 seconds. Using talc/solvent putty is like mailing a deck of punch cards to Houston and waiting a week to find out you left out a semicolon.

Sent from my overpriced graham cracker

On Jan 17, 2015, at 11:33 AM, "Andy Carlson midcentury@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

Denny mentioned Epoxies long shelf life. My current bench top epoxy is a circa 20 year old pair of white 2-tons I found in a long forgotten box. Other than the white component weeping a bit from separation, it performs as well as it did 20 years ago when I first opened it.

When faced with the apparent loss of White 2-ton I embarked on a search for adequate substitutes. Both the Devcon and Ace clear Epoxys were near useless for my needs. None of the clear Epoxys I tested satisfied me.  Ace Hardware White 2-ton seemed to be the same as Devcon's, though it came in smaller tubes making it more expensive per use.

Now that my search is over, as I have at least two satisfactory Epoxies to work with. Like Tom Madden said at his resin casting Cocoa Beach clinic, when you find a good product the need to search for a replacement is not necessary.

I have had excellent results with the 4 Epoxies of:
1) Devcon White 2-Ton *
2) Ace Hardware White 2-Ton
3) Ace Hardware Marine waterproof epoxy
4) J-B Weld Epoxy

*I have not found this product for some time.
No other epoxies I eperimented with were even close to acceptable. I have not tested anywhere near all available epoxies. I bought a larger Ace package of Clear slow setting epoxy and it was totally useless for my purposes. I couldn't even get good results as back filling castings for depth and support--Stay away from this stuff!

All of the above recommended epoxies are of a 50/50 mix. Back when these were available in tubes (J-B Weld still is), I would open the tubes with an awl. I was careful to make the punctured holes as close to identical in diameter as possible. The thicker component is usually the epoxy, the thinner component is the hardener. I always squeeze the epoxy component first, in a straight line. I follow with the hardener tube alongside the the 1st strip. Squeeze out an equal length. the hardener strip will flow out making it harder to match volumes if squeezed first. Another tip; The best results are achieved when the mix-ratio favors the epoxy component, sort of 53/47. You end up with some hardener left after your epoxy tube is used up. This ratio isn't too critical, just NEVER use more hardener than epoxy as you will get flexible poor castings.

I have been a fan of the White 2-Ton Epoxy for decades, and some folks have asked me why is it better than other, more common hobby glues. For me, I rarely use epoxy as a glue. I do filling, castings, and plugging holes with epoxy, and I would lose a great working material if all of the good Epoxies  were to disappear.

One illustration:

When the HO Stewart/Kato EMD F3A was released, it had a bizzare coupler opening in the front pilot. The real pilots have a backwards 'D' shape opening  which is very apparent. The Stewart coupler mount pad also extended out from this grotesque aperture. I have seen others who addressed this problem by the traditional method of glueing in styrene followed by many coats of squadron surface putty. Depending on the time and skills invested, a good result can be achieved. I simply carved off the offending protrusion followed by carefully stretching a piece of Scotch Tape around the curved pilot. The tape was trimmed to just fit in the curved area and not into the upper part below the anticlimber. Next some White 2-Ton was mixed and applied to the backside of the tape from inside the pilot through the opening which I intended to fill. With a toothpick applying the epoxy, I could fill into all corners and with the transparency of the tape, I was able to easily see if there were any voids. Allowing an overnight cure, I pulled the tape off and had a smooth paint-ready surface (except I now needed to carve the correct backwards 'D' opening). I can not think of any other technique which so easily can be used to plug holes this quickly and with stellar results.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Container gons from NKP (UNCLASSIFIED)

Charles Tapper
 

Flickr seems to add photos or adds. That was the URL when I was viewing the slide. Here is the directory for the library:
 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/sets/ or "google" barriger library on flickr
 
Should be lots of collections labeled by road.
 
Go to page 2, open "Pittsburgh and Lake Erie" , then go to page 3, scroll down to frame 185.
 for the B&O container gon. It is actually in a set of Mon Con/J&L steel  pictures.
 
The Union folder is also on page 2, open it and scroll to frames 71 and 75. Those are the NKP cars.
 
I was afraid something would go wrong with the URLs.
 
Charlie Tapper


On Saturday, January 17, 2015 1:22 AM, "Andy Harman gsgondola@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
At 04:48 PM 1/16/2015 +0000, you wrote:

>There is a distant picture of the same set from the other side here.
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12297095234/in/set-72157640479876345/lightbox/

All I get is a big phone ad. Do I now have to join flickr just to view photos?

Andy




Re: Car Weights

Jim Williams <wwww5960@...>
 

I wouldn't, there is a risk......I've seen where the solvent in Goo attack a SF resin gondola (Sunshine? not mine) and destroyed it.....Goo never dries so it continues to work on glued surfaces......Most probable that it will react on some, and won't on others......Problem is you won't know for sure for years......Best Jim W.


On Saturday, January 17, 2015 12:48 PM, "Pierre Oliver pierre.oliver@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
I use silicone caulking exclusively for attaching weights. Handles shocks very well.
And for weights proper I cast lead balls using a mold left over form my shooting days. 2 0.60 cal balls are perfect for a 40' HO scale car. I remelt tire weights and other lead I can scrounge
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com




Re: Car Weights

Pierre Oliver
 

I use silicone caulking exclusively for attaching weights. Handles shocks very well.
And for weights proper I cast lead balls using a mold left over form my shooting days. 2 0.60 cal balls are perfect for a 40' HO scale car. I remelt tire weights and other lead I can scrounge
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com


Re: Car Weights

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

  Answering several posts in one ...

  Many of the 'flexible adhesives' ... such as Walther's Goo ... will out gas
fumes for -years- after they appear to be set/cured.  I've had a box car
'melt' from such emissions as long as 7 years after Goo was used to attach
a weight.  When that happened I swore off Goo and anything that seemed
similar and haven't looked back.  I have used Gorilla Glue (which is a
different adhesive from white glue or Goo) on occasion but I'm not sure I'd
use it "in a closed space" such as a plastic box car or locomotive or caboose.

  By "Elmer's/White Glue" I'm referring to that product and to Krystal
Klear and to other such "milk protein based adhesives".  Carpenter's
glue (Elmer's or other) is yellow and is also made from milk ... but
will -not- soften due to water after it has cured/set (at least not enough
to matter).
  My most common "white glue" is KK.

  I have not had any problem with KK or Elmer's 'letting go' of any car
weight.  I smear some of the KK on the car floor (usually inside a
box/reefer) or 'on the underside of a flat car ... put in some weight
(often lead shot or sheet lead) and add more KK after to form a filet
along the edges.  Or actually covering up over the edges to the top
of the weight such as when using sheet lead.

  I -always- "set the car aside for 4 to 24 hours" before doing
anything else to it.  If the KK/white glue isn't -totally- clear I
leave it alone.  Room temperature and air movement can
affect the drying/curing time.  Even 24 hours can be "not enough"
some times.
                                                                                          - YMMV ... Jim

P.S. Tony, I have used Canopy Cement back when I was flying R/C.  I
       think it is very likely "a form of white glue".  Just like KK.  KK has
       some stuff added to it to make it the consistency it is - and
       perhaps to also make it dry clearer or easier to span an opening.

P.P.S. I rarely use KK for its intended purpose 9windows).  But it is one
         of my go to adhesives.


Re: Car Weights

Tony Thompson
 

Al Westerfield wrote:

 
Goo is perfectly useful IF you add it to the weight, place it on the car, squish it around and then remove it and wait until all of the solvent has gassed off both parts.  

   I would recommend waiting several years .

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Car Weights

 

Goo is perfectly useful IF you add it to the weight, place it on the car, squish it around and then remove it and wait until all of the solvent has gassed off both parts.  Then put the weight in place very carefully because once it’s placed it will not move.  - Al Westerfield
 

Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Car Weights
 
 

Goo and styrene?
Ever hear of the Incredible Melty Man?
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 1/17/2015 3:00 PM, WaltGCox@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

I have a few Branchline 40 foot box cars to build and was wondering about using good old Walthers goo. Has anyone had any experience with it
Walt
 
In a message dated 1/17/2015 10:58:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
 
I use Loctite white contact cement myself
 
 
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: mailto:asychis@...[STMFC] mailto:STMFC@...
Date:01/17/2015 10:51 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Car Weights

 
Jim,
 
White or yellow glue for to a plastic to metal or metal to metal bond? That seems unusual to me.  I would think a steel nut glued to a plastic body with white glue would easily pop off. Are you using a thin layer of glue or encasing the weight?
 
Jerry Michels
 
 
"My most common adhesive for all weight jobs is "some form
of white glue" (Elmers, Elmers Carpenter, Krystal Klear)."
 


Re: Car Weights

Tony Thompson
 

I have a few Branchline 40 foot box cars to build and was wondering about using good old Walthers goo. Has anyone had any experience with it

      I strongly recommend keeping Goo well away from ANY styrene material. Even as  a contact cement, the solvent continues to outgas over time and will distort your model. Just do NOT go there. And as full disclosure, no, don't ask me now I know.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Car Weights

O Fenton Wells
 

I use contact cement but make sure you put it on both pieces and let it dry thoroughly before putting the weight to the floor.
Fenton Wells

On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 3:00 PM, WaltGCox@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

I have a few Branchline 40 foot box cars to build and was wondering about using good old Walthers goo. Has anyone had any experience with it
 Walt
 
In a message dated 1/17/2015 10:58:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

I use Loctite white contact cement myself


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "asychis@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
Date:01/17/2015 10:51 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Car Weights

 

Jim,
 
White or yellow glue for to a plastic to metal or metal to metal bond? That seems unusual to me.  I would think a steel nut glued to a plastic body with white glue would easily pop off. Are you using a thin layer of glue or encasing the weight?
 
Jerry Michels
 
 
"My most common adhesive for all weight jobs is "some form
of white glue" (Elmers, Elmers Carpenter, Krystal Klear)."
 




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Re: Car Weights

Pierre Oliver
 

Goo and styrene?
Ever hear of the Incredible Melty Man?
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 1/17/2015 3:00 PM, WaltGCox@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

I have a few Branchline 40 foot box cars to build and was wondering about using good old Walthers goo. Has anyone had any experience with it
 Walt
 
In a message dated 1/17/2015 10:58:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

I use Loctite white contact cement myself


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "asychis@... [STMFC]"
Date:01/17/2015 10:51 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Car Weights

 
Jim,
 
White or yellow glue for to a plastic to metal or metal to metal bond? That seems unusual to me.  I would think a steel nut glued to a plastic body with white glue would easily pop off. Are you using a thin layer of glue or encasing the weight?
 
Jerry Michels
 
 
"My most common adhesive for all weight jobs is "some form
of white glue" (Elmers, Elmers Carpenter, Krystal Klear)."
 


Re: Car Weights

WaltGCox@...
 

I have a few Branchline 40 foot box cars to build and was wondering about using good old Walthers goo. Has anyone had any experience with it
 Walt
 

In a message dated 1/17/2015 10:58:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

I use Loctite white contact cement myself


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "asychis@... [STMFC]"
Date:01/17/2015 10:51 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Car Weights

 

Jim,
 
White or yellow glue for to a plastic to metal or metal to metal bond? That seems unusual to me.  I would think a steel nut glued to a plastic body with white glue would easily pop off. Are you using a thin layer of glue or encasing the weight?
 
Jerry Michels
 
 
"My most common adhesive for all weight jobs is "some form
of white glue" (Elmers, Elmers Carpenter, Krystal Klear)."
 


Re: New Broadway Limited UP 4-12-2

paul.doggett2472 <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

Generally cranks were set at 120°
but on some locos the outer cranks were set at 90° with the centre cylinder set at 135° thus causing an off beat sound. In the UK there were an awful lot of 3 cylinder locomotives well over a 1000 some of which were compounds.
Paul Doggett UK




Sent from Samsung mobile

"hayden_tom@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

I'm a bit confused about Steve Orth's post where he states that the outer cranks are at 90 deg. I have a 2005 e-mail from Barry Keob with the Rail Giants museum at the LA County Fairgrounds, where UP # 9000 resides (and where the 4014 Big Boy was pulled from). He says: the drivers are at 120 deg:


"They had to keep the quartering at equal angles -- 120° -- partially for centrifugal mass balancing reasons.  The #2 driver has an enormous inside steel crank/counterbalance assembly that has to spin in concert with and balanced to the outside main rods.  (One hundred and twenty degrees is the quartering angle listed in the book "Union Pacific Type, Volume 1" and confirmed by one of the co-authors, John Bush.)   
 
"That also leads to the question of the "loping" exhaust one hears in recordings.  The sound may be the sum of a number of factors
  • The center cylinder being located just below the exhaust jet means that its exhausted steam had a shorter distance to travel before hitting the stack, as opposed to the longer path the outer cylinder's exhaust had to move.  So it was likely that its exhaust 'beat' hit sooner, and louder;
  • The center cylinder's stroke is one inch less than the outside cylinders, which could have resulted in a slightly earlier valve timing events;
  • Lack of maintenance on the center cylinder, leading to uneven bearing wear."

So if the BLI model has evenly spaced chuffs, that's probably correct. But if the models outside drivers are at 90 deg, that's not correct, but probably a necessary and acceptable compromise to good running.

I was at the Rail Giants Museum in Sept 2013 when they were prepping the Big Boy, and I took several pictures of #9000, but only from the engineer's side!  Looking on line I cannot find a photo of #9000 at the Museum taken from the fireman's side! Apparently the chain link fence on that side discourages photographers. 

Maybe someone from this group could take pics of both sides. 

Tom Hayden


car weights

ed_mines
 

I use furniture mend plates, formerly bought at a hardware store now closed.


I recently bought 50 - 3/4 X 2-1/2 - of these weights on e bay for $6 plus change.


I also use bb shot.


Ed Mines 


Re: New Broadway Limited UP 4-12-2

hayden_tom@...
 

I'm a bit confused about Steve Orth's post where he states that the outer cranks are at 90 deg. I have a 2005 e-mail from Barry Keob with the Rail Giants museum at the LA County Fairgrounds, where UP # 9000 resides (and where the 4014 Big Boy was pulled from). He says: the drivers are at 120 deg:

"They had to keep the quartering at equal angles -- 120° -- partially for centrifugal mass balancing reasons.  The #2 driver has an enormous inside steel crank/counterbalance assembly that has to spin in concert with and balanced to the outside main rods.  (One hundred and twenty degrees is the quartering angle listed in the book "Union Pacific Type, Volume 1" and confirmed by one of the co-authors, John Bush.)   
 
"That also leads to the question of the "loping" exhaust one hears in recordings.  The sound may be the sum of a number of factors
  • The center cylinder being located just below the exhaust jet means that its exhausted steam had a shorter distance to travel before hitting the stack, as opposed to the longer path the outer cylinder's exhaust had to move.  So it was likely that its exhaust 'beat' hit sooner, and louder;
  • The center cylinder's stroke is one inch less than the outside cylinders, which could have resulted in a slightly earlier valve timing events;
  • Lack of maintenance on the center cylinder, leading to uneven bearing wear."

So if the BLI model has evenly spaced chuffs, that's probably correct. But if the models outside drivers are at 90 deg, that's not correct, but probably a necessary and acceptable compromise to good running.

I was at the Rail Giants Museum in Sept 2013 when they were prepping the Big Boy, and I took several pictures of #9000, but only from the engineer's side!  Looking on line I cannot find a photo of #9000 at the Museum taken from the fireman's side! Apparently the chain link fence on that side discourages photographers. 

Maybe someone from this group could take pics of both sides. 

Tom Hayden

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