Date   

1947 Boxcar Shortage

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

I was working my way through Western Pacific annual reports (dull reading, but I was looking for something specific) when I stumbled on this in the 1947 issue:

"The shortage of box cars during 1947 was of particular disadvantage to Western Pacific which is more adversely affected by such conditions than other California terminal carriers for the reason that a majority of such cars line-hauled westbound from Salt Lake or southbound from Bieber are turned over to other lines, either for delivery at common points or for line-haul to destination. Such cars are not returnable to Western Pacific for its eastbound loadings and because the number of such cars turned over to other carriers by Western Pacific for its eastbound loadings far exceeds the number of such cars received by it from other lines for delivery, it will be apparent that Western Pacific, during periods of car shortage, contributes substantially to the supply of other lines." [That's one VERY wordy sentence!]

We've talked about this issue here before in general, but this is much more specific. Up until 1947, the WP had a fairly small fleet of cars, especially boxcars. This was made worse by having most cars loaded on the WP being interchanged rather than delivered to other points on their own road. Starting in 1947 the WP began an aggressive program to buy boxcars. Many of these went into specific pool service, which tended to prevent capture by other roads.

The WPHS has the complete run of annual reports online at http://www.wplives.com/diagrams/ .The site also has equipment diagrams for nearly all their rolling stock, cabooses, passenger cars and MoW equipment for 1930, 1947, 1958 and 1968. It is a treasure trove of great stuff.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: (was Athearn) container gondolas (UNCLASSIFIED)

Todd Horton
 

Here's a link to a photo of another NYC car with 5 containers. Notice how
they are orientated in the car in this photo. Todd Horton

https://www.google.com/search?q=lehigh+valley+cement+gondolas&rlz=1T4ADRA_en
US398US398&tbm=isch&imgil=xRc-9yG_Az7YYM%253A%253BnKwPE6HnO24INM%253Bhttp%25
253A%25252F%25252Fwww.readingmodeler.com%25252Findex.php%25252Fforum%25252Ft
he-caboose%25252F153-cement-container-gondolas&source=iu&pf=m&fir=xRc-9yG_Az
7YYM%253A%252CnKwPE6HnO24INM%252C_&usg=__l-V9mu7DghtJ_fRtuXQBQbCo6uo%3D&biw=
1563&bih=798&ved=0CDgQyjc&ei=ify4VLbAKIznsAT-_4D4Cw#imgdii=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A
%3BxRc-9yG_Az7YYM%3B7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%3A&imgrc=7j9fQMvi2ZGiDM%253A%3BSora6tB12T
iYLM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi114.photobucket.com%252Falbums%252Fn255%252FChris
333_33%252FDLW1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforum.atlasrr.com%252Fforum%252Fpop
_printer_friendly.asp%253FARCHIVE%253Dtrue%2526TOPIC_ID%253D55643%3B800%3B51
3

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 4:28 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] (was Athearn) container gondolas
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Todd

So it would appear the LCL Corporation was the owner of the containers and
the several railroads simply supplied the gondolas to transport them? Is
that an accurate statement? Or perhaps the railroads leased the containers
from LCL Corp?

I guess I'm asking were all of the containers identical except for the
lettering?

Tim O'Connor



At 1/15/2015 07:56 PM Thursday, you wrote:

I uploaded a photo to the files section under my name. The picture shows an
NYC and a D&H gon with cement containers. The NYC carried 20,000 lb
containers and the D&H carried 22,000 lbs ones. The containers are listed
as being 7 6 in diameter so I assume the ones the D&H used were taller
than the NYC version. Both of these are lettered  The LCL Corporation
Todd Horton


------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: (was Athearn) container gondolas (UNCLASSIFIED)

Todd Horton
 

Tim, I would think there has to be some difference in the containers due the
capacity difference, 20,000 lbs. vs 22,000 lbs. The light weight for each
are listed as 4,385 lbs. vs 4,430 lbs. That's only 45 pounds so maybe the
difference was internally, a deeper sloped bottom perhaps? One thing I did
missed upon first glance is that there's also a ACF logo on both the NYC and
D&H canisters. The D&H photo says "Builder of car and containers, ACF"

The other question that comes up is about unloading cement from them. The
D&H car has 4 cut outs down at least one side of the car for this purpose,
the NYC photo is too dark to tell but from looking at photos of other cars
(LV I know for sure) had slots spaced evenly along the sides of the car as
well.. The canisters have one fitting for an unloading hose to attach down
towards the bottom of the canister. If you look at the photo of both of
these cars the canisters in each are turned differently as placed in the
gondola. I'm making an assumption here but I would think that the lettering
would have been orientated the same on all of these when they were painted
new. Using the D&H car as an example and going off the photo you would have
had to unload three of these from one side of the car and two from the
other. The NYC car shows a similar arraignment, 3 canisters are orientated
in one direction and the other three are in the opposite direction.

It would be interesting to compare in service shots of these cars to see
how the canisters were positioned after they had been on the road from a
period of time. I have always thought these were interesting cars and they
would make a good modeling candidate. Todd Horton

.

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 4:28 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] (was Athearn) container gondolas
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Todd

So it would appear the LCL Corporation was the owner of the containers and
the several railroads simply supplied the gondolas to transport them? Is
that
an accurate statement? Or perhaps the railroads leased the containers from
LCL Corp?

I guess I'm asking were all of the containers identical except for the
lettering?

Tim O'Connor


Re: Ye Old X29

Benjamin Hom
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"Arved one of the photos I sent you is a PRR Merchandise Service (not REA express) X29 in Taylor Yard in Los Angeles, incredibly filthy as Tony says, and evidently simply being used as a box car. But that's in the later 1950's, not 1953. LCL was in precipitous decline from 1950 onwards so whole fleets of LCL box cars (NYC, SP, PRR, etc) ended up in general freight service."

This doesn't answer Arved's question and confuses the issue. As you pointed out, this is NOT an express boxcar, and as LCL goes, the Merchandise Service X29s were plain boxcars lacking any special equipment for handling LCL. It's far more likely it was being used as a general service boxcar.

The cars painted in Merchandise Service schemes got incredibly ratty as the years went on, and are definitely a weathering challenge!


Ben Hom


Re: Ye Old X29

Tim O'Connor
 


Arved one of the photos I sent you is a PRR Merchandise Service (not REA express)
X29 in Taylor Yard in Los Angeles, incredibly filthy as Tony says, and evidently
simply being used as a box car. But that's in the later 1950's, not 1953. LCL was
in precipitous decline from 1950 onwards so whole fleets of LCL box cars (NYC, SP,
PRR, etc) ended up in general freight service.

Tim O'Connor



Is it safe to assume these didn't venture far from home rails, and would be of little or no interest to a modeler of Southern Pacfiic's Coast Line? Or might an express car have ended up on the Coast Mail in anything resembling a regular basis?

       I would say both assumptions are wrong. They went everywhere. I have memories of seeing PRR express box cars at the Postal Annex in Los Angeles when I was a teenager, and they made an impression because they were so INCREDIBLY dirty, far more than other head end cars spotted there. There were not express boxes (SP or otherwise) in every Coast Mail, but certainly in some. I would doubt, though, that the PRR express boxes went up or down the Coast much, because they were usually east-west travels, but there are always exceptions -- just never seen a photo of one on the Coast. I haven't modeled one.

Tony Thompson    


Re: Black cat decals

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Scott,

I ordered directly from their online catalog. They took care of the exchange rates.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 1/16/15 12:38 AM, repairman87@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Where is a source for Black cat Decals in the US?  I have 3 eight hatch reefers from F&C that I would like to use the Black cats for CPR an CN steam era decals.

Thanks,
Scott McDonald




Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: (was Athearn) container gondolas (UNCLASSIFIED)

Tim O'Connor
 

Todd

So it would appear the LCL Corporation was the owner of the containers and
the several railroads simply supplied the gondolas to transport them? Is that
an accurate statement? Or perhaps the railroads leased the containers from LCL Corp?

I guess I'm asking were all of the containers identical except for the lettering?

Tim O'Connor

At 1/15/2015 07:56 PM Thursday, you wrote:

I uploaded a photo to the files section under my name. The picture shows an NYC and a D&H gon with cement containers. The NYC carried 20,000 lb containers and the D&H carried 22,000 lbs ones. The containers are listed as being 7� 6� in diameter so I assume the ones the D&H used were taller than the NYC version. Both of these are lettered � The LCL Corporation� Todd Horton


Re: Ye Old X29

Tim O'Connor
 


3/4" plate steel??? REALLY? What is this, armor plate? That'll stop a torpedo!

I'm looking at a CBC hopper car drawing that specifies 1/4" plate for the
sides and slope sheets.

Tim O'Connor



Semantically speaking, they don�t have to be any particular thickness.  However, to be prototypic thickness they would need to be around 0.009� for 3/4� plate and 0.006� for 1/2� plate steel.  I have not measured them with a micrometer but they are most likely 0.010�, as they were probably etched from 0.020� so they are pretty close to 3/4� plate.  I have not painted them yet, but they look pretty good to my eye.

Regards

Bruce


Re: Black cat decals

Brad Andonian
 

Scott,

Email me off list. I have been ordering from al.

At Jan 15, 2015, 9:38:28 PM, repairman87@... [STMFC]<'STMFC@...'> wrote:

Where is a source for Black cat Decals in the US? I have 3 eight hatch reefers from F&C that I would like to use the Black cats for CPR an CN steam era decals.

Thanks,
Scott McDonald



Black cat decals

Scott
 

Where is a source for Black cat Decals in the US?  I have 3 eight hatch reefers from F&C that I would like to use the Black cats for CPR an CN steam era decals.

Thanks,
Scott McDonald



Re: Ye Old X29

Tony Thompson
 

Arved Grass wrote:

Is it safe to assume these didn't venture far from home rails, and would be of little or no interest to a modeler of Southern Pacfiic's Coast Line? Or might an express car have ended up on the Coast Mail in anything resembling a regular basis?


       I would say both assumptions are wrong. They went everywhere. I have memories of seeing PRR express box cars at the Postal Annex in Los Angeles when I was a teenager, and they made an impression because they were so INCREDIBLY dirty, far more than other head end cars spotted there. There were not express boxes (SP or otherwise) in every Coast Mail, but certainly in some. I would doubt, though, that the PRR express boxes went up or down the Coast much, because they were usually east-west travels, but there are always exceptions -- just never seen a photo of one on the Coast. I haven't modeled one.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Ye Old X29

arved_grass
 

Red Caboose lists the following X29 undec kits:

RC-7001 X-29 '28 body with Dreadnaught ends
RC-7002 X-29 '24 body with plate ends
RC-7003 ARA body with short frame and B&O ladders (ed: must be one of the X29 "copies")
RC-7005 X-29 with patch sides and plate ends (ed: the '24 body?)
RC-7006 X-29 REA '24 body with patch sides and plate ends
RC-7007 X-29 REA '28 body with dreadnaught ends

So who makes the '23 body (and how is it different?). It looks like the '28 body is the one with Dreadnaught ends.

Looks like I really need to find a copy of RPC vol 24

This has also been published regarding the various Red Caboose models, but it doesn't include information on the 1923 (original) cars:

http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/modeling/proto%20kits/23arax29kits1.pdf

There's also this:

http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/23arax29.pdf

However, it doesn't list any PRR X29s built in 1923, and it differentiates between 1928 and "late X28" without noting when these "late X28" cars were built.

The more I learn, the more confused I get, but I'm willing to slog through the details to get it right.

To those who this is old-hat, I appreciate your patience and tolerance.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@... or Arved@...
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 1/15/15, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [STMFC] Ye Old X29
To: STMFC@...
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2015, 2:48 PM

Jim



True, and RC did a good job -- but it's only ONE of the
carbody styles and

they made 4 different bodies (1923, 1924, 1928 and a version
with dreadnaught

ends). 1950's modelers need to patch all of them.



Tim O'Connor



>I'm sure the etched panels are beautiful, but you
should know that Red Caboose released a run of X29 with a
'patch' side: RC-7201.

>

>Jim Hunter


Re: Photos from Prototype Rails 2015

Bruce Smith
 

Yes the hoppers were Chuck's work.  He gave 2 clinics on these, the first on the prototypes and the second on how to model them.  I only caught the second and it left me wishing I had seen both.  I struggle with all the series and rebuilds of the cars... I need a video rewind!

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn AL

From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 9:59 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Photos from Prototype Rails 2015



I think those hoppers might belong to Chuck Davis. I've seen some of his stuff before and have emailed back and forth with him. 


On Jan 15, 2015, at 10:37 PM, "sgaab@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Wow, so many (all) great models. Being from the anthracite region, who did those Lehigh Valley hoppers? Would like details on their construction if possible.

 

Greg Bartek




Re: Ye Old X29

Benjamin Hom
 

Arved Grass wrote:
"Is it safe to assume these didn't venture far from home rails, and would be of little or no interest to a modeler of Southern Pacfic's Coast Line? Or might an express car have ended up on the Coast Mail in anything resembling a regular basis?"

You haven't been doing too well with assumptions lately. Express service X29s traveled far and wide from PRR home rails. For example, magazines were shipped weekly from New York to the west coast, often in X29s or Class B60B baggage cars. You may not have seen them on the Coast Mail, but you definitely would have seen them crossing Donner Pass.




"Both cars have the "shadow keystone" logo introduced in 1954. I'm trying to stick to 1953."
If you want an express X29 for 1953, do a Circle Keystone car.
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-xm-9495.jpg&fr=


Ben Hom


Re: Photos from Prototype Rails 2015

John Evans
 

I think those hoppers might belong to Chuck Davis. I've seen some of his stuff before and have emailed back and forth with him. 


On Jan 15, 2015, at 10:37 PM, "sgaab@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Wow, so many (all) great models. Being from the anthracite region, who did those Lehigh Valley hoppers? Would like details on their construction if possible.

 

Greg Bartek


Re: NYC box car photo

Allan Smith
 

Per Kadees web site.The PS=1's built between 1947- to the middle of 1950 have what I call a 10-2 roof. The two end panels don't have the raised bowtie, they are flat panels. Cars in Lot 5942 and before did not have the stiffeners in the end panels while cars in Lot 5950 an afterwards did.

Al Smith Sonora CA


Re: Ye Old X29

Bruce Smith
 

Arved,

The RC patch panels are "half width" and on both sides of the door (so really full-width). What was usual is a good question. Initially, patches were just the end panel or 2 panels. Patch height often varied between 1 an 2 feet. Then patches could be most, but not all of the panels. As the cars rotted even more, patches became more uniform and basically patched from the door opening to the end of the car.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 9:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Ye Old X29

Bruce showed patches that were both half width (that is, from the end to the door, on both sides of the door) as well as individual panel patches.

Being naiive and unfamiliar with the RC X29 model, and the PRR in general, how did RC patch it? What was usually done?

Yes, I've learned the addage "every modeler ends up being a PRR modeler." I'm just way late to the game on this one.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@... or Arved@...
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 1/15/15, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [STMFC] Ye Old X29
To: STMFC@...
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2015, 2:48 PM

Jim



True, and RC did a good job -- but it's only ONE of the
carbody styles and

they made 4 different bodies (1923, 1924, 1928 and a version
with dreadnaught

ends). 1950's modelers need to patch all of them.



Tim O'Connor



>I'm sure the etched panels are beautiful, but you
should know that Red Caboose released a run of X29 with a
'patch' side: RC-7201.

>

>Jim Hunter



------------------------------------
Posted by: Arved Grass <arved_grass@...>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: Photos from Prototype Rails 2015

Greg Bartek
 

Wow, so many (all) great models. Being from the anthracite region, who did those Lehigh Valley hoppers? Would like details on their construction if possible.

 

Greg Bartek


Re: Ye Old X29

arved_grass
 

Is it safe to assume these didn't venture far from home rails, and would be of little or no interest to a modeler of Southern Pacfiic's Coast Line? Or might an express car have ended up on the Coast Mail in anything resembling a regular basis?

Both cars have the "shadow keystone" logo introduced in 1954. I'm trying to stick to 1953.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@... or Arved@...
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 1/15/15, asychis@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Ye Old X29
To: STMFC@...
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2015, 3:42 PM

FYI,  The Amarillo Railroad Museum has Red
Caboose X29's with patch
panels both the Merchandise scheme (white banner, 12
numbers) and express
boxcars (six numbers) in the shadow keystone scheme.  www.amarillorailmuseum.com.
 
Jerry Michels


Re: Ye Old X29

arved_grass
 

Bruce showed patches that were both half width (that is, from the end to the door, on both sides of the door) as well as individual panel patches.

Being naiive and unfamiliar with the RC X29 model, and the PRR in general, how did RC patch it? What was usually done?

Yes, I've learned the addage "every modeler ends up being a PRR modeler." I'm just way late to the game on this one.

Arved Grass
Arved_Grass@... or Arved@...
Fleming Island, Florida

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 1/15/15, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [STMFC] Ye Old X29
To: STMFC@...
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2015, 2:48 PM

Jim



True, and RC did a good job -- but it's only ONE of the
carbody styles and

they made 4 different bodies (1923, 1924, 1928 and a version
with dreadnaught

ends). 1950's modelers need to patch all of them.



Tim O'Connor



>I'm sure the etched panels are beautiful, but you
should know that Red Caboose released a run of X29 with a
'patch' side: RC-7201.

>

>Jim Hunter

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