Date   

Re: reverse engineering or copying?

Gene Deimling
 

Bill
I am not sure why one would scan an old model to produce new tooling unless it is for reproduction of Flyer or Lionel parts.
Older models are more likely to suffer from inaccuracies .   You will need documentation to verify accuracy.   At that point, you might as well just do it.
As a pattern maker, I have a real problem with people knocking off the work of others.   It is unethical to copy work.   I realize that ethics is in short supply these days.  

Gene Deimling
El Dorado Hills, CA


Re: reverse engineering or copying?

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 3/13/2014 9:22 AM, thecitrusbelt@... wrote:
I agree with this but wonder how long the “foreseeable future” will be?

    So sometime in the future we will take our $100 (then dollars) 3D scanner and load the output into our $100 (then dollars) 3D printer and have all the parts/etc. we want.
    That is assuming there are any model railroaders left (grin)!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: reverse engineering or copying?

thecitrusbelt@...
 

The comment was made: “…nowhere in the foreseeable future are you going to be able to point your "Instamatic Scanner" at a prototype and send the file out to Shapeways to get a model back, and certainly not anywhere near a price modelers will feel is reasonable.”

 

I agree with this but wonder how long the “foreseeable future” will be?

 

I recall in 1969 I was working with a health inspector and we were in a Burger King.  I saw my first microwave oven in the kitchen and when the health inspector explained to me what it was and what it did, I asked him if he ever though we would see these in the average home.  He said, “No way.  The magnetron in this oven alone costs $600.00 [1969 dollars, folks] so that factor will keep these from becoming a common household appliance.”  And for the foreseeable future he was right.

 

The future ability of scanners used to produce tooling at some point will involve a degree of machine intelligence that will make the “many tweaks required to render a detail so it can be molded, but still appear correct.”  This is inevitable…but who knows when.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: reverse engineering or copying?

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


As a former provider of scale drawings, I can empathize with that unhappiness. Payment for publication hardly covered the amount of effort and expense that went into reducing an actual car into a good scale drawing or a well researched book.
 
That being said, all of us do this because we enjoy it and few if any are getting a large financial reward for their efforts. With that in mind, my main concern is having enough to keep me busy for the rest of my life, and that is hardly a concern. Many of you have a pile of unbuilt kits: I have a pile of freight car production data to compile. I also find that you get more than you give when dealing with like-minded individuals. It's the ones who always want someone else to do all the work that annoy me.
 
I'm am also very aware that what I do is built on a foundation left by others in both the prototypical and historical worlds. The only true value I provide is in collecting and organizing scattered data.
 
Eric N.
 

As a kit manufacturer, let me tell you I would be very unhappy if my product was scanned and copied regardless of scale, without permission.
A lot of hard work goes into creating product and effort should be rewarded not pillaged.
And a little consideration and good will goes a long way.
This is starting to sound like the whole online stealing of music debate again.
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 3/13/2014 6:31 AM, Scaler164@... wrote:
 
I fail to see why a manufacturer SHOULD (as opposed to could) care if his item is copied as long as the new product was not produced in his same scale.  I mean, why would an HO manufacturer who flat-out refuses to venture into S care if we duplicate his HO model in S since it will not in any way be competing for his market?!?  Yes, I understand the issue of design investment, but to that end, a small gratuity COULD be paid... if necessary... like most 1:1 scale railroads now charge for use of their logos/names/etc.
 
John Dgnan
 

From: "Bill Lane"
To: "Steam Era Freight cars"
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 4:33:42 AM
Subject: [STMFC] reverse engineering or copying?
 

Last fall I was given the use of a $150,000 3D scanner for 4 hours scanning specific areas of a boxcar. It was a massive clunky “THAT is $150K” looking thing. In spite of getting the scan files, it might be a while if ever that I learn how to convert them into something useful. The scanner could only create a STL file which at least for me is not a usable file that can be edited. Yes there are STL file editors I don’t have yet. The STL is my output file when I am done designing. It is likely more useful to just create my own new files for those items. I was told by the dealer that scanned for me that MOST of the 3D scanners are currently designed for and used as quality control confirmation of complex shapes not reverse engineering.

While the copying items like brake wheel, trucks and other model railroad items is not illegal there is a moral issue. Reverse engineering can be a polished term for copying! Knocking off a long gone company’s item is one thing but if the company is still in business it might get them upset.

Bill Lane

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Re: reverse engineering or copying?

Dave Nelson
 

It might sound like the copying music debate but in fact it is very, very different.

 

There is no legal protection whatsoever for the shape of a model made with high fidelity to a real world object.  Period.  Skill, effort, time, investment… it doesn’t matter, it is not protected.  Add artwork and the artwork – and only the artwork – might be protected by copyright… but only if it is creative.  Whether there is or is not a moral issue is, IMO, a somewhat different conversation and one I’ll skip for now.

 

It might not sound fair but that’s the way it is.  See “Meshworks v. Toyota” for a full ruling on why cad files – or any other representation  made with high fidelity to a real world object  are not subject to copyright protection.

 

Dave Nelson

 

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Pierre Oliver
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 6:28 AM



As a kit manufacturer, let me tell you I would be very unhappy if my product was scanned and copied regardless of scale, without permission.
A lot of hard work goes into creating product and effort should be rewarded not pillaged.
And a little consideration and good will goes a long way.
This is starting to sound like the whole online stealing of music debate again.

 


Re: CRI&P 53' war gons

Bob Slavinski
 

Thank you Ben...

From: Benjamin Hom
To: "STMFC@..."
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: CRI&P 53' war gons

 
Bob Slavinski asked:
"Hi Jon...do you have a like to that web site?"

http://hoseeker.org/

Ben Hom



Re: reverse engineering or copying?

destorzek@...
 

I have to admit I agree completely with Pierre's comments. In addition, those of us who design tooling know that there is no such thing as a completely scale model, there are many, many tweaks required to render a detail so it can be molded, but still appear correct. How these tweaks are accomplished is what sets each company's product line apart.

I'm sure 3-D scanning will have a place, but it is hardly a panacea; nowhere in the foreseeable future are you going to be able to point your "Instamatic Scanner" at a prototype and send the file out to Shapeways to get a model back, and certainly not anywhere near a price modelers will feel is reasonable.

I'm reminded of a comment I just read on a machining forum; the poster felt that management had the idea that since they had CNC machines, all they had to do on the shop floor was show the drawing to the machine, and the part got made. He said that one day the first parts came out of the machine with the surface wavy from cutter chatter, and his buddy accused him of shaking when he showed the machine the print. :-)

Dennis Storzek


Re: Lehigh Valley 41000 series hopper

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


Doesn't the side design differ from the car pictured in the 1930s article? If so, does this car represent a rebuilt rebuild with new sides?
 
Eric 

The link to the photo of 42060 is at:


Very interesting in that this one was rebuilt with seven side stakes instead of six as shown in the photos of the other two examples.  This one does show the train line along the side sill.

Thank you for the answers to my query and the leads to another photo.

Lou Whiteley


On Thursday, March 13, 2014 6:49 AM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
 
John Evans wrote:
"If the question about the air line is in reference to the rebuilt cars (42000 series) the attached photo of 42060 posted by Ray Stillwell on the Railfan.net LV forum might help."

Can you post a link to the photo or upload the photo to the group website?  The list is set to strip attachments.

Ben Hom



Re: reverse engineering or copying?

John Barry
 

Bill,

I am not advocating copying parts.  My post was to point out that many on this list have the scratchbuilding skills to fabricate original models in wood/plastic/metal but are nigh on illiterate when it comes to the digital realm.  Those on the list are a step ahead of the modelers who don't use computers at all, but there is a world of difference between reading e-mail messages and digitally designing a part.  Modeling skills do not necessarily translate into CAD skills.  One only has to look at the frustrations of those trying to navigate the archives now that Neo is the Yahoo standard.  Your response vis-a-vis the scanner tells all, CNC die making is not yet ready for modelers, at least not those who haven't made the commitment to also become CAD drafters.  My gratitude and best wishes to those who are leading the charge, for by your efforts, that elusive goal of I can make a bunch of these comes a few steps closer to those who can make one.
 
John Barry


ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights


707-490-9696


3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224
Cameron Park, CA 95682


From: Bill Lane
To: Steam Era Freight cars
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 1:33 AM
Subject: [STMFC] reverse engineering or copying?

 
John
 
Last fall I was given the use of a $150,000 3D scanner for 4 hours scanning specific areas of a boxcar. It was a massive clunky “THAT is $150K” looking thing. In spite of getting the scan files, it might be a while if ever that I learn how to convert them into something useful. The scanner could only create a STL file which at least for me is not a usable file that can be edited. Yes there are STL file editors I don’t have yet. The STL is my output file when I am done designing. It is likely more useful to just create my own new files for those items. I was told by the dealer that scanned for me that MOST of the 3D scanners are currently designed for and used as quality control confirmation of complex shapes not reverse engineering.
 
While the copying items like brake wheel, trucks and other model railroad items is not illegal there is a moral issue. Reverse engineering can be a polished term for copying! Knocking off a long gone company’s item is one thing but if the company is still in business it might get them upset.
 
Thank You,
Bill Lane

Modeling the Mighty Pennsy & PRSL in 1957 in S Scale since 1987

See my finished models at:
http://www.lanestrains.com
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale!
 
See my layout progress at:
http://www.lanestrains.com/My_Layout.htm

Custom Train Parts Design
http://www.lanestrains.com/SolidWorks_Modeling.htm

PRR Builders Photos Bought, Sold & Traded
(Trading is MUCH preferred)
http://www.lanestrains.com/PRRphotos.xls 

***Join the PRR T&HS***
The other members are not ALL like me!
http://www.prrths.com
http://www.lanestrains.com/PRRTHS_Application.pdf

Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical Society
It's FREE to join! http://www.prslhs.com 
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL
 



Re: Poling Pockets source

Bill Welch
 

Matt, I have used styrene lift rings from Grandt Line to make poling pockets. I am at Dodger Spring Training in AZ so I cannot tell you the part number but the description should get you there. It is only a matter of trimming off the mounting pin. I first used them on some L-L Proto 2000 GP7's, attaching them with liquid Testors and then once a day for several days sort of flooding the middle with Testors until they looked like castings or pressings. Have since done the same with some styrene freight car patterns.
Bill Welch


Re: Lehigh Valley 41000 series hopper

LOUIS WHITELEY <octoraro1@...>
 

The link to the photo of 42060 is at:


Very interesting in that this one was rebuilt with seven side stakes instead of six as shown in the photos of the other two examples.  This one does show the train line along the side sill.

Thank you for the answers to my query and the leads to another photo.

Lou Whiteley


On Thursday, March 13, 2014 6:49 AM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
 
John Evans wrote:
"If the question about the air line is in reference to the rebuilt cars (42000 series) the attached photo of 42060 posted by Ray Stillwell on the Railfan.net LV forum might help."

Can you post a link to the photo or upload the photo to the group website?  The list is set to strip attachments.

Ben Hom



Re: CRI&P 53' war gons

Benjamin Hom
 

Bob Slavinski asked:
"Hi Jon...do you have a like to that web site?"

http://hoseeker.org/


Ben Hom


Re: 3D Scanning

Bill Schneider
 

We did indeed use the 3D scan for our FPA-4 loco - There is a more detailed page here http://www.rapidotrains.com/scan.html


As I discusses with Bill off list, this method really shines for capturing complex curves (I WISH that we had looked into it for the FP9 nose, I would have had more hair left….) but it is not cheap. In addition, the file that comes out still needs a fair bit of editing work. It’s not (yet) a plug-and-play solution to designing a mode, but it’s a great tool to add to the box.

 

Bill Schneider

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of fgexbill@...
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 9:21 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] 3D Scanning

 

 

I have told manufacturers at the various modeling events about this technology and their eyes appear to glaze over. Then someone mentioned that Rapido had used it on one of their locomotive projects so I wrote Bill Schneider about this and indeed they have. Here is a link to a video on their blog but you need to scroll down: http://www.rapidotrains.com/blog/page/2/

This seems the ideal solution for a freight car when there are no drawings but but examples are around in museums.

Bill Welch


Re: Poling Pockets source

O Fenton Wells
 

Westerfield makes them, look in that on line catalog under parts
Fenton Wells


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Matt Goodman <goodman312@...> wrote:
 

Hello list,

I have some kits from American Model Builders that lack polling pockets. I was able to modify a quality craft white metal set for the first kit I completed, but now need more.

Is there a source for these details? I have not had luck finding any to this point.

Thank you!

Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio

Sent from my mobile




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Poling Pockets source

 

Hello list,

I have some kits from American Model Builders that lack polling pockets. I was able to modify a quality craft white metal set for the first kit I completed, but now need more.

Is there a source for these details? I have not had luck finding any to this point.

Thank you!

Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio

Sent from my mobile


Re: reverse engineering or copying?

Pierre Oliver <pierre.oliver@...>
 

As a kit manufacturer, let me tell you I would be very unhappy if my product was scanned and copied regardless of scale, without permission.
A lot of hard work goes into creating product and effort should be rewarded not pillaged.
And a little consideration and good will goes a long way.
This is starting to sound like the whole online stealing of music debate again.
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 3/13/2014 6:31 AM, Scaler164@... wrote:

 
I fail to see why a manufacturer SHOULD (as opposed to could) care if his item is copied as long as the new product was not produced in his same scale.  I mean, why would an HO manufacturer who flat-out refuses to venture into S care if we duplicate his HO model in S since it will not in any way be competing for his market?!?  Yes, I understand the issue of design investment, but to that end, a small gratuity COULD be paid... if necessary... like most 1:1 scale railroads now charge for use of their logos/names/etc.
 
John Dgnan
 

From: "Bill Lane"
To: "Steam Era Freight cars"
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 4:33:42 AM
Subject: [STMFC] reverse engineering or copying?
 

Last fall I was given the use of a $150,000 3D scanner for 4 hours scanning specific areas of a boxcar. It was a massive clunky “THAT is $150K” looking thing. In spite of getting the scan files, it might be a while if ever that I learn how to convert them into something useful. The scanner could only create a STL file which at least for me is not a usable file that can be edited. Yes there are STL file editors I don’t have yet. The STL is my output file when I am done designing. It is likely more useful to just create my own new files for those items. I was told by the dealer that scanned for me that MOST of the 3D scanners are currently designed for and used as quality control confirmation of complex shapes not reverse engineering.

While the copying items like brake wheel, trucks and other model railroad items is not illegal there is a moral issue. Reverse engineering can be a polished term for copying! Knocking off a long gone company’s item is one thing but if the company is still in business it might get them upset.

Bill Lane

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4336 / Virus Database: 3722/7186 - Release Date: 03/12/14



3D Scanning

Bill Welch
 

I have told manufacturers at the various modeling events about this technology and their eyes appear to glaze over. Then someone mentioned that Rapido had used it on one of their locomotive projects so I wrote Bill Schneider about this and indeed they have. Here is a link to a video on their blog but you need to scroll down: http://www.rapidotrains.com/blog/page/2/
This seems the ideal solution for a freight car when there are no drawings but but examples are around in museums.
Bill Welch


Re: reverse engineering or copying?

 

Don¹t know if it cost $150K or not, but ³This Old House² last week featured
a hand held 3D scanner hooked to a laptop. An old plaster light fixture
escutcheon was scanned, from which a replacement could be produced. Surely,
this was a 12²:1¹ to 12²:1¹ copy, but I don¹t see why the scan couldn¹t be
scaled down (or up, if scanning, say, an HO model to make an S scale one).
And Weathertech (makers of car floor mats) shows in their ads the use of the
same technology to make form fitting plastic floor mats. Neither of these is
for QC only use!

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: <Scaler164@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Thursday, March 13, 2014 at 5:31 AM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] reverse engineering or copying?







I fail to see why a manufacturer SHOULD (as opposed to could) care if his
item is copied as long as the new product was not produced in his same
scale. I mean, why would an HO manufacturer who flat-out refuses to venture
into S care if we duplicate his HO model in S since it will not in any way
be competing for his market?!? Yes, I understand the issue of design
investment, but to that end, a small gratuity COULD be paid... if
necessary... like most 1:1 scale railroads now charge for use of their
logos/names/etc.

John Dgnan
Scaler164@...
Scaler187@...


From: "Bill Lane" <bill@...>
To: "Steam Era Freight cars" <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 4:33:42 AM
Subject: [STMFC] reverse engineering or copying?

Last fall I was given the use of a $150,000 3D scanner for 4 hours scanning
specific areas of a boxcar. It was a massive clunky ³THAT is $150K² looking
thing. In spite of getting the scan files, it might be a while if ever that
I learn how to convert them into something useful. The scanner could only
create a STL file which at least for me is not a usable file that can be
edited. Yes there are STL file editors I don¹t have yet. The STL is my
output file when I am done designing. It is likely more useful to just
create my own new files for those items. I was told by the dealer that
scanned for me that MOST of the 3D scanners are currently designed for and
used as quality control confirmation of complex shapes not reverse
engineering.
While the copying items like brake wheel, trucks and other model railroad
items is not illegal there is a moral issue. Reverse engineering can be a
polished term for copying! Knocking off a long gone company¹s item is one
thing but if the company is still in business it might get them upset.
Bill Lane









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Lehigh Valley 41000 series hopper

Benjamin Hom
 

John Evans wrote:
"If the question about the air line is in reference to the rebuilt cars (42000 series) the attached photo of 42060 posted by Ray Stillwell on the Railfan.net LV forum might help."

Can you post a link to the photo or upload the photo to the group website?  The list is set to strip attachments.

Ben Hom


Re: Lehigh Valley 41000 series hopper

John Evans
 

If the question about the air line is in reference to the rebuilt cars (42000 series) the attached photo of 42060 posted by Ray Stillwell on the Railfan.net LV forum might help. 

John Evans
Easton, PA

On Sunday, March 9, 2014 9:31 PM, LOUIS WHITELEY <octoraro1@...> wrote:

 
Regarding the rebuilt twins (42000 - 42848), a 1947 photo of LV 42521 in "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" by Kline and Culotta shows the right side without the train line.  An earlier photo of 42261 clearly shows the train line along the right side.
Has any information surfaced that could shed new light on this thread from 2010?

Lou Whiteley
Lawrenceville, NJ



On Saturday, September 4, 2010 8:49 PM, Charles R Yungkurth <drgwrail@...> wrote:

 
Been so ong since I did the LV Steam book as well as the drawings that were in
RMC that my recollection is foggy!

Don't know the answer to the air line question.

I made the drawings in RMC from original LV vellums. No longer have these but
loaned them to ARHS and they copied all of the vellums I had. Unfortunately, as
you probably know, the air brake piping and components are on a separate drawing
than the general erection one.

The LV erection drawing clearly show dimples pressed into the slope sheets to
provide clearance for the wheel treads.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO

________________________________
From: Claus Schlund (HGM) <mailto:claus%40hellgatemodels.com>
To: mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 5:53:09 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Lehigh Valley 41000 series hopper

 
Hi Donald, Tim, Al,

Al wrote:

Yungkurth, "Steam Era of Lehigh Valley", p 58, shows the left sides
of LV 41254 (composite quad) and 41185 (steel-sided quad); the train
pipe isn't visible in either.
However, on page 63 of the same book there appears to be one of the referenced
composite cars (hard to know for certain, since it is
only a partial view with no road number visible) clearly showing an outside
train pipe.

Can someone confirm that this car on page 63 is the same hopper car class as is
under discussion?

- Claus at Hell Gate Models

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Ford" <mailto:ford.donald77%40yahoo.com>
To: <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Lehigh Valley 41000 series hopper

Tim
Yes they had dimples or depresions in the slope heets, and the comsosite cars
had upside down pans fastened the the composie slope sheets if I read Chuck Y's
drawings rite. Both the photos in the RMC August 1997 article and I am guessing
that he used the same photos in his book on the Leheigh Valley, same numbers,
are of the side that would not have had the train air line using standard
pratice. Rich Christe said that his info on the twin hoppers these cars were
rebuilt into had the outside train air line. I also have a photo of one of
these cars its 3/4 end view but does shown the air line. They cut the frame
when the cars were rebuilt and could have rerouted it at that time. I am going
to go with train air line down the center sill. Well my car will be run on a
modular layout so I will just keep the left side out and the air line cop
shouldn't be albe to see it.
Thanks
Don Ford
Kanab UT

________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <mailto:timboconnor%40comcast.net>
To: mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, September 4, 2010 12:27:18 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Lehigh Valley 41000 series hopper

Didn't these cars require "dimples" on the underside to
clear the wheels/truck-swing? Maybe the train line was run
down the center line of the car to avoid interference?

Tim O'Connor

Yungkurth, "Steam Era of Lehigh Valley", p 58, shows the left sides
of LV 41254 (composite quad) and 41185 (steel-sided quad); the train
pipe isn't visible in either.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.
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