Bruce's answer is true, but not the whole story. In Neo, when replying to a post from the web page, all text - what you add plus the quoted text you include - is run together without line breaks. This results in an incomprehensible "wall of text". I'm replying to Bruce's post from the STMFC web page but have deleted all the previous text and am inserting two line breaks here (I'm typing the <> characters as markers) <> just to see what happens. Conversely, I posted an ADMIN notice on the Passenger Car List yesterday which I composed off-line in Word and pasted into the box which opened on the web page when I selected New Topic, and every line break was doubled! I'm inserting a single line break here<> The other problem is, at least from the web page, you cannot reply only to the sender. The options are: sender plus List, List only, or List owner only. (I don't do individual emails from Groups and do everything from the web pages.) Another double line break now<> This has become a really annoying beta test, and issues seem to get resolved and new ones reappear every day. The 'wall of text" issue is serious for Yahoo. Apparently it violates an ADA requirement that accommodates people with certain visual impairments. Another single line break.<> At last report Mike hadn't been switched to Neo and hadn't seen the changes. So I hope he forgives this post, which is both a test and a demonstration. What you *should* see is a Reply post with no quoted text from previous posts, and line breaks as described. I'm now going to add three line breaks and then my signature. We'll see what it looks like.<> Tom Madden

Didn't Clark Propst do that in the Prototype Modeler magazine Vol. 1 by Ted
Culotta?
Fenton Wells


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 9:16 PM, Don <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

**



Hello all,

Someplace within the last few weeks an article was found on
upgrading the Mantua reefer, I think with new ends. Now that I've
located a cople of the reefers I can't seem to find the article
again. Might anyone recall it and where it was published? I thought
it was in a RailModel Journal but a search for it under the heading of
"Mantua refrigerator upgrade" or even just "Mantua refrigerator"
on TrainLife.com fails to yield anything remotely close. Thus I'm in hope
that someone else might recall the piece.

Thanks for any available assistance, Don Valentine

--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Another reason for a near 70-year to not have a dumb cell phone, smart phone  or tablet.  Windows 7 and OnStar  is enough to keep track of updates and minutes on.


Sorry, but if one wants help . . . please make it simple.



Al Kresse

Folks,



This is a classic case of being too general in the description of what one is looking for from prototype documentation  -- i.e. please state if one is looking for a 50-ton or 70 -ton , ribbed-si de , offset-side, panel-side, and number of hopper bays, like center-clamshell,   triple-saw-tooth,  etc. to go with the extended Dreadnaught  end-panels .   This request has resulted in a review of available info and images showing that these cars in photos   . . . but only documented from a distance  in re venue service in large area (Armco Steel Ashland and Handley, WV)  yard shots or closer-up in Cinder Se rvice livery .       



Hopefully, somebody will have fun kit-bashing a USRA 70-ton hopper model into the requested mode configurationl.



Al Kresse  . . . currently assisting in a  group effort in updating and merging  the C&O 1937 and 1846  Freight Car books last published by C&OHS in1986  






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Al,

If you could read between all the inserted crap, you would already know the answer... that being no. The inserted symbols are a plain test translation of HTML and this is a significant "bug" in the new Neo interface. Yehaw does know about it, but whether they can fix it or not is still undecided.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of water.kresse@... [water.kresse@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 8:17 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: C&O hopper photo needed

Can we clean up the messages to be readable? Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: e27ca@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 12:37:02 AM
Subject: [STMFC] RE: C&O hopper photo needed

&nbsp;Hmmm.&nbsp; Well I THOUGHT I was only responding to Curt, but it went to everyone.&nbsp;&nbsp; Shows how much I know about the new format. &nbsp; J ohn King --- In stmfc@..., <e27ca@...> wrote: Curt, &nbsp; I only look at messages in the archives and&nbsp;do not get individual messages sent to my email . &nbsp; &nbsp; With the new format (which I hate!), if go into the group archives and you reply to an individual message&nbsp;you&nbsp;respond to the sender, if you you need to respond to the entire group, you respond from conversations.&nbsp;&nbsp; I found this out by accident, of course. &nbsp; John King&nbsp; --- In stmfc@... , <curtfortenberry@...> wrote: &nbsp; Clark, &nbsp; Contact me off list.&nbsp; &nbsp; Curt Fortenberry &nbsp; ps:&nbsp; WIth this new yahoo format, I don't see a way to reply just to the sender, the new format always includes the group. If I'm missing something, would someone let me know. thanks. &nbsp; --- In stmfc@... , <cepropst@...> wrote: I know someone wanting to model a Dreadnaught w/heap shield C&amp;O style hopper car end and needs a photo.

Thanks to anyone who can help!!
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Can we clean up the messages to be readable?  Al Kresse

--- In STMFC@..., "midrly" <lucas@...> wrote:

A couple of images taken in 1935 show what appears to be a PRR X29 car with patches on the lower part of the car side--

The identifying info--

<<http://images.ourontario.ca/Whitby/67114/data?n=4>>

The actual photo--

<<http://images.ourontario.ca/Whitby/67114/image/155719?n=4>>

Another image showing the whole car side--

<<http://images.ourontario.ca/Whitby/67115/data?n=5>>

I did not realise that lower parts of the car sides rotted out so quickly. Thoughts?

Steve Lucas.

Not being an SPF, more of a PH, I'm not going to get into car types but do feel it is an X25 as has been suggested. But lets take a longer and harder look at the first photo you posted, that showing only the end of the car and mostly the Grimsby station. Frankly, I do not think you are looking at rust or rot. When the second view of the whole car is viewed it is a bit harder to tell left of the door but it appears to me that the car has been creased in an accident that dragged someething along the side of it and that the original door has been replaced. Is there rust along the bottom? You bet having been creased like that in some sort of side swipe but you will never convince me that we are looking at patches on this car from those photos when the crease does not exptend fully to the end of the car behind the ladder as rust would have and the indentation along what you seem to feel is the top of the "patch" is so distinctly visible.
IMHO it is not a patch job it; is the result of a side swipe with the strong possibility of a door having been replaced.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Don Valentine asked:
"Someplace within the last few weeks an article was found on upgrading the Mantua reefer, I think with new ends. Now that I've located a cople of the reefers I can't seem to find the article again. Might anyone recall it and where it was published? I thought it was in a RailModel Journal but a search for it under the heading of "Mantua refrigerator upgrade" or even just "Mantua refrigerator" on TrainLife.com fails to yield anything remotely close. Thus I'm in hope that someone else might recall the piece."
 
"Kit Conversion: URTX 40-Foot Reefers from Mantua and Red Caboose Components", Stan Rydarowicz, Railmodel Journal, September 2001.
http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/231/17008/september-2001-page-26
 
 
Ben Hom

Don, this one?

http://trainlife.com/magazines/pages/410/30024/october-1996-page-14

--------------------------------------

Someplace within the last few weeks an article was found on upgrading the Mantua reefer, I think with new ends. Now that I've located a cople of the reefers I can't seem to find the article again. Might anyone recall it and where it was published? I thought it was in a RailModel Journal but a search for it under the heading of "Mantua refrigerator upgrade" or even just "Mantua refrigerator" on TrainLife.com fails to yield anything remotely close. Thus I'm in hope that someone else might recall the piece. Thanks for any available assistance, Don Valentine

&nbsp;Hmmm.&nbsp; Well I THOUGHT I was only responding to Curt, but it went to everyone.&nbsp;&nbsp; Shows how much I know about the new format. &nbsp; J ohn King --- In stmfc@..., &lt;e27ca@...&gt; wrote: Curt, &nbsp; I only look at messages in the archives and&nbsp;do not get individual messages sent to my email . &nbsp; &nbsp; With the new format (which I hate!), if go into the group archives and you reply to an individual message&nbsp;you&nbsp;respond to the sender, if you you need to respond to the entire group, you respond from conversations.&nbsp;&nbsp; I found this out by accident, of course. &nbsp; John King&nbsp; --- In stmfc@... , &lt;curtfortenberry@...&gt; wrote: &nbsp; Clark, &nbsp; Contact me off list.&nbsp; &nbsp; Curt Fortenberry &nbsp; ps:&nbsp; WIth this new yahoo format, I don&#39;t see a way to reply just to the sender, the new format always includes the group. If I&#39;m missing something, would someone let me know. thanks. &nbsp; --- In stmfc@... , &lt;cepropst@...&gt; wrote: I know someone wanting to model a Dreadnaught w/heap shield C&amp;O style hopper car end and needs a photo.

Thanks to anyone who can help!!
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Curt, &nbsp; I only look at messages in the archives and&nbsp;do not get individual messages sent to my email . &nbsp; &nbsp; With the new format (which I hate!), if go into the group archives and you reply to an individual message&nbsp;you&nbsp;respond to the sender, if you you need to respond to the entire group, you respond from conversations.&nbsp;&nbsp; I found this out by accident, of course. &nbsp; John King&nbsp; --- In stmfc@..., &lt;curtfortenberry@...&gt; wrote: &nbsp; Clark, &nbsp; Contact me off list.&nbsp; &nbsp; Curt Fortenberry &nbsp; ps:&nbsp; WIth this new yahoo format, I don&#39;t see a way to reply just to the sender, the new format always includes the group. If I&#39;m missing something, would someone let me know. thanks. &nbsp; --- In stmfc@... , &lt;cepropst@...&gt; wrote: I know someone wanting to model a Dreadnaught w/heap shield C&amp;O style hopper car end and needs a photo.

Thanks to anyone who can help!!
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all,

Someplace within the last few weeks an article was found on
upgrading the Mantua reefer, I think with new ends. Now that I've
located a cople of the reefers I can't seem to find the article
again. Might anyone recall it and where it was published? I thought
it was in a RailModel Journal but a search for it under the heading of "Mantua refrigerator upgrade" or even just "Mantua refrigerator"
on TrainLife.com fails to yield anything remotely close. Thus I'm in hope that someone else might recall the piece.

Thanks for any available assistance, Don Valentine

Richard, thanks so much for that great overview. I appreciate both the time
it took to compose and the hours spent with nose to old documents over the
years to get to the point where you could compose it. Eric


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Richard Hendrickson <
rhendrickson@...> wrote:

**



On Aug 27, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...>
wrote:

Eric Lombard wrote:

I was not aware that SRECo later called the roof with raise panels

"Solidsteel" for a while , also. Thanks for pointing that out. As a broader
STMFC topic I would be very interested in knowledge that the group can
bring to bear on the origins and early use of "Improved Steel" roofs - in
form if not in name. I'll start another thread for this.

Richard Hendrickson may wish to chime in on this, as I know he has

researched it extensively, but I would urge GREAT caution in any
interpretation of the word "improved." In the flexible metal roof days,
there seem to have been "new models" introduced annually by several of the
manufacturers, often called "new" or "improved" or both, often without
visible external differences. If you browse Cycs from the 1915-1930 period,
you will find a great deal of this, and even more vividly if you browse the
ads in Railway Age in those same years. It is a bewildering array of
"products," right in there with truck sideframes, which were also offered
in virtually inexhaustible variety by all the companies. Once sold steel
roofs arrived, it is less complicated, but until 1940 there were still
multiple "models" of roofs on sale.

I agree entirely with Tony's observations. In the 1922 CBCyc, flexible
outside metal roofs were shown by Chicago-Cleveland, Hutchins, and Standard
Railway Equipment Co., and there were other manufacturers as well. SRE
showed both the XLA Flexible Steel Roof and the very similar Improved XLA
Flexible Steel Roof as well as the "Solidsteel" roof (more on that later).
By 1928 SRE was offering the Murphy Improved Flexible Outside Metal Roof,
which was externally indistinguishable from its earlier roofs of this type,
as well as the Radial All Steel Flexible roof and the "Solidsteel" roof. In
1922 Chicago-Cleveland was selling the Chicago Flexible Outside Metal roof,
the National Flexible Outside Metal roof, and the Improved Superior
Flexible Outside Metal roof, as well as the Type B Chicago Improved Winslow
Inside Metal roof and the Chicago Common Sense All-Steel Carline Roof
(n.b., how much better could you make something that was already "Improve!
d Superior"?). By 1928, only the National outside metal and Winslow inside
metal roofs were still on offer, but Chicago-Cleveland was showing the
Viking, Climax Flexible, and Zenith Flexible all steel roofs, while
Hutchins no longer offered outside metal roofs but focussed on its Dry
Lading All Steel and Camber (radial) All Steel roofs.

The Murphy "Solidsteel" roof had the advantage that the steel seam caps,
riveted over upturned flanges on the roof sheathing, performed as carlines
so that there were no internal carlines to interfere with lading stacked
right to the ceiling. Its edges overhung the eaves and were riveted to
steel angles which were in turn riveted to Z-section eaves. These roofs
were the first to act as a structural part of the car body.

In the early 1930s both Hutchins and SRE introduced all steel roofs with
raised rectangular panels in the sheathing sections between the seam caps
to stiffen to sheathing and make the roof more resistant to twisting (this
rectangular panel roof design has often been assumed to be exclusively an
SRE development, but it was adopted by Hutchins at about the same time). In
both cases, the rectangular reinforcements were originally on the extreme
end panels of the roof, as well as the inboard panels, but the end panels
were soon made flat so that the lateral running boards would fit closer to
the roof and thus not exceed clearance limits at the eaves. This then
became the rectangular panel steel roof applied to most AAR 40' and 50' box
and auto cars from the mid-1930s through the late '40s.

In the 1930s Hutchins merged with Chicago-Cleveland which was in turn
bought out by SRE, so by the late 1930s SRE was the only major manufacturer
of freight car roofs. The rectangular panel steel roof was made available
in both riveted and welded versions. SRE also continued to produce the
Viking corrugated roof, originally designed by Chicago-Cleveland, as well
as a double-panel roof with two narrow raised reinforcements between each
seam cap which was used, most notably, on the Milwaukee Road's
horizontal-rib welded box cars. After WW II, the diagonal-panel roof was
introduced (first appearing in 1948) which had diagonal reinforcing ribs
pressed into the formerly rectangular panels of the rectangular panel roof,
and this became by far the most common freight car roof design through the
1950s.

There were other roof designs, of course, in addition the ones listed
above (notably the notoriously leak-prone flat riveted roofs applied to
thousands of Pennsylvania RR box and auto cars from 1921 to 1940), but this
account is already complicated enough without
citing all of the minor exceptions.

Richard Hendrickson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rich,

<GONG>!!! <G> Sorry, but that is, as others have said, an X31B. The spotting features are the roof that is not inset and the lack of underfloor tubes and end fittings for the auto loaders (or it would be an X31C). The X31 and X31A classes had inset roofs.


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

Jim,


This is a PRR X31a double door (the class car both single and double door). There were a total of 609 double door cars built. The October 1963 ORER shows all but 22 still on the PRR roster. However, only 11 made it to PC in the April 1968 ORER..


Rich Orr

These are very good instructions to search messages but how does one search the files section for a topic?&nbsp; Can&#39;t seem to find any way to do that ... Ed Robinson --- In stmfc@..., &lt;abrown@...&gt; wrote: Thanks Bruce, good directions ... &nbsp; STMFC content: didn&#39;t notice Mr Watnoski&#39;s&nbsp;reply before posting my own, but I sure like his cut levers. Usual disclaimer: no business connection, happy customer only. &nbsp; AL B. --- In stmfc@... , &lt;smithbf@...&gt; wrote: Al, Aaron,

Yes, you can search the group in the new Neo format IF you can get on the web page (as I understand it, if you had certain settings when you were converted you can&#39;t get to the page...)

Look at the top of the group page for the search box, type in whatever you want to search (I did &quot;Carmer cut lever&quot;) hit return (or Search Groups) and the hits will list below (I got 118). That &quot;Search Groups&quot; button is confusing because it seems to be saying search all groups, but in reality it just searches the STMFC archive. The results page will also give you access to a &quot;Advanced Search&quot; button where you can search by author, subject, message and/or date.

Regards
Bruce Smith (who HATES neo)
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... [ STMFC@... ] on behalf of abrown@... [ abrown@... ]
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 7:45 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Carmer Cut Levers

Nice etched-metal Carmers are available from Free State Systems. &nbsp; (*Can* one search the group archive in this&nbsp;cockamamie format?) &nbsp; Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla. --- In stmfc@... , &lt;wolfhunt1987@...&gt; wrote: Dear Group &nbsp; &nbsp;Because of Yahoo&#39;s new setup I can not search old posts. I was wondering how to make or where I can find carmer cut levers. &nbsp; Aaron Heaney

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

&nbsp; Clark, &nbsp; Contact me off list.&nbsp; &nbsp; Curt Fortenberry &nbsp; ps:&nbsp; WIth this new yahoo format, I don&#39;t see a way to reply just to the sender, the new format always includes the group. If I&#39;m missing something, would someone let me know. thanks. &nbsp; --- In stmfc@..., &lt;cepropst@...&gt; wrote: I know someone wanting to model a Dreadnaught w/heap shield C&amp;O style hopper car end and needs a photo.

Thanks to anyone who can help!!
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Aug 30, 2013, at 11:41 AM, "midrly" <lucas@...> wrote:

A couple of images taken in 1935 show what appears to be a PRR X29 car with patches on the lower part of the car side--

The identifying info--

<<http://images.ourontario.ca/Whitby/67114/data?n=4>>

The actual photo--

<<http://images.ourontario.ca/Whitby/67114/image/155719?n=4>>

Another image showing the whole car side--

<<http://images.ourontario.ca/Whitby/67115/data?n=5>>

I did not realise that lower parts of the car sides rotted out so quickly. Thoughts?

Steve Lucas.

Steve, that's not an X29, it's an X25 (note the left-opening door, end sill, bolster end acting, etc.) These were the Pennsy's first steel sheathed box cars and were built in 1915-'16, so by 1935 the car was already 20 years old. I have photos of these cars from the late 1920s showing full length side sheathing replacements above the sills. As, the Pennsy, New York Central, and other early users of steel sheathed box cars discovered, when car bodies trapped water between inner and outer sheathing in the space above the side sills, the steel outer sheathing rusted out from behind very rapidly. That's why the ARA/AAR standard box car design had the sills elevated to above floor level and the frame cross members attached to the sills by distinctive trapezoid-shaped tabs.

A couple of images taken in 1935 show what appears to be a PRR X29 car with patches on the lower part of the car side--

The identifying info--

<<http://images.ourontario.ca/Whitby/67114/data?n=4>>

The actual photo--

<<http://images.ourontario.ca/Whitby/67114/image/155719?n=4>>

Another image showing the whole car side--

<<http://images.ourontario.ca/Whitby/67115/data?n=5>>

I did not realise that lower parts of the car sides rotted out so quickly. Thoughts?

Steve Lucas.

Jim King wrote

> I found this W&R model for sale on ebay and am interested in bidding on it.
> The car is supposedly accurate for PRR, N&W, DT&I and NP

The W&R model is an X31b. The cars sold to NP after 1960 were all ex-DT&I.
Some ex-DT&I cars also went to MRS during this time.

I don't know of any early AD&N decals. AD&N had second hand box cars with
white lettering over oxide red, and others with gold lettering over green!
It would be nice to have both styles :-)

Tim O'Connor

Questions: When were the N&W and PRR cars off their respective rosters?
Does anyone make a suitable decal set for the early AD&N scheme? Who makes
a suitable DT&I or NP decal set for a car that would be running circa
1970-74 like the AD&N car (which is really the one I want to model)?

Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

Asheville, North Carolina

Ph. (828) 777-5619

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com