Date   

Re: Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Ya, than how come I have a femailman?

Joel

Joel,

That's "Turnout person" nowadays.



John Hagen



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Joel
Holmes
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:54 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: Throwing Turnouts, was [STMFC] Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs.
RB





Ya, but you will also need some turnoutmen.

Joel Holmes











Re: Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

Joel,



That's "Turnout person" nowadays.



John Hagen



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Joel
Holmes
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:54 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: Throwing Turnouts, was [STMFC] Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB





Ya, but you will also need some turnoutmen.

Joel Holmes


Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:


BTW, did Mr. Westcott call the location of the lever that operated the switch, and the target indicating switch position, the "turnout stand"? If not, I suggest the futility of the decision is self-evident ;^)

Regards

Bruce
Few people modeled things to that degree of accuracy back then... But, the electro-mechanical device that operated the switch points was always called a "switch machine", same term as applied to power operated devices that perform the same function on the prototype.

If Westcott was guilty of anything, it was adopting the prototype term that was more all inclusive for the subject mater he was writing about... after all, Lionel called them "switches", but I bet their customers would have been upset if all they got in the box was a couple point rails :)

It's the modelers themselves that adopted the term in the operating sense, but likely as much to avoid confusion with the block switches we all had to deal with as due to ignorance of the prototype operating term. The prototype didn't seem to have this problem... when the Chief told the dispatcher to "line the switch" on his CTC machine, he knew exactly what was being referred to. Then he grabbed the selector on his CTC panel and did it :)

Dennis


Re: Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Ya, but you will also need some turnoutmen.

Joel Holmes

So when I finally finish my HO model of the GB&W 0-6-0 #145 I should refer
to it as a "turnout engine?"



I've been following all this and I was somewhat surprised that there is
such
a term used on the prototype albeit mostly limited to the engineering
departments. For model railroading purposes operating department jargon is
most commonly used thus the possible confusion of the term "switch" with
the
very similar sounding term "switch."



John Hagen



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Bruce F. Smith
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:26 PM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: Throwing Turnouts, was [STMFC] Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs.
RB





John,

You probably sent this before seeing the other responses, but this is not
correct. Turnout is most definitely a prototype railroad term, used by
railroad employees (track department) to denote the entire assemblage of
the
apparatus that allows a train to journey forth on one of two (or three)
tracks, Switch is also a prototype railroad term used by both the
operating
department and the track department to denote the moving parts of a
turnout.
As Tony clarified in his second message, the use of turnout was not
invented
as a model railroad term, but the insistence on never using "switch" was
an
editorial decision...

BTW, did Mr. Westcott call the location of the lever that operated the
switch, and the target indicating switch position, the "turnout stand"? If
not, I suggest the futility of the decision is self-evident ;^)

Regards

Bruce











Re: Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

So when I finally finish my HO model of the GB&W 0-6-0 #145 I should refer
to it as a "turnout engine?"



I've been following all this and I was somewhat surprised that there is such
a term used on the prototype albeit mostly limited to the engineering
departments. For model railroading purposes operating department jargon is
most commonly used thus the possible confusion of the term "switch" with the
very similar sounding term "switch."



John Hagen



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Bruce F. Smith
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 1:26 PM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: Throwing Turnouts, was [STMFC] Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB





John,

You probably sent this before seeing the other responses, but this is not
correct. Turnout is most definitely a prototype railroad term, used by
railroad employees (track department) to denote the entire assemblage of the
apparatus that allows a train to journey forth on one of two (or three)
tracks, Switch is also a prototype railroad term used by both the operating
department and the track department to denote the moving parts of a turnout.
As Tony clarified in his second message, the use of turnout was not invented
as a model railroad term, but the insistence on never using "switch" was an
editorial decision...

BTW, did Mr. Westcott call the location of the lever that operated the
switch, and the target indicating switch position, the "turnout stand"? If
not, I suggest the futility of the decision is self-evident ;^)

Regards

Bruce


Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

Richard Wilkens <railsnw@...>
 

Thank you Dennis, you beat me to it.

Richard Wilkens

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:

Steve,

Did you read what I wrote?



"A switchman can line a switch, but it takes the whole track gang to line a turnout."

Dennis

Tony,

Absolutely nothing wrong with the term "turnout", it's what the Engineering Dept. calls the whole assemblage... Switch, frog, guard rails, timber, etc.

The operating people only concern themselves with the switch, since that's the only thing they can move (unless they put something badly on the ground, then they can move a lot of things :)

Dennis


Re: Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

Bruce Smith
 

John,

You probably sent this before seeing the other responses, but this is not correct. Turnout is most definitely a prototype railroad term, used by railroad employees (track department) to denote the entire assemblage of the apparatus that allows a train to journey forth on one of two (or three) tracks, Switch is also a prototype railroad term used by both the operating department and the track department to denote the moving parts of a turnout. As Tony clarified in his second message, the use of turnout was not invented as a model railroad term, but the insistence on never using "switch" was an editorial decision...

BTW, did Mr. Westcott call the location of the lever that operated the switch, and the target indicating switch position, the "turnout stand"? If not, I suggest the futility of the decision is self-evident ;^)

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

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|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|

| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On Apr 26, 2012, at 1:10 PM, John Hagen wrote:

Turnout is a model railroad term used to avoid confusion with certain toggle
or push-button power routing devices.


Re: Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

A turnoutman, now that is an interesting concept.

Joel Holmes

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Tony,
Absolutely nothing wrong with the term "turnout", it's what the
Engineering Dept. calls the whole assemblage... Switch, frog, guard
rails, timber, etc.
The operating people only concern themselves with the switch, since
that's the only thing they can move (unless they put something badly
on the ground, then they can move a lot of things :)
Yes, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise on the term itself.
When I did materials research on railroad rails, I was for a time on
the AAR Research Committee, and in fact co-authored some technical
papers on rail performance in conference proceedings, both American
and European. On that Committee, I heard lots of commentary from old-
head track supervisors, and as you say, the track guys think only of
turnouts.
But the Kalmbach/Westcott concept was never to refer to anything
about a turnout, including the switch part, as anything but a turnout.
Whether the avoidance of confusion with electrical switches was worth
it, I can't say.

Tony Thompson
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937;
e-mail: thompson@...


Re: Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

Jack Burgess
 

<Tony,
<
<Absolutely nothing wrong with the term "turnout", it's what the
<Engineering Dept. calls the whole assemblage... Switch, frog, guard
<rails, timber, etc.
<
<The operating people only concern themselves with the switch, since
<that's the only thing they can move (unless they put something badly on
<the ground, then they can move a lot of things :)
<
<Dennis

That statement agrees with my 1929 copy of "Trackwork and the Section
Foreman" copyrighted in 1935. (It was used by a YV Section Foreman.) The
book refers to a "turnout" as the whole connection between one track
branching from the other. What we tend to call "points" is labeled on a
drawing as the "switch rails" with the "Point of the Switch" as where the
switch rails end (or begin). It goes on to say "A turnout is sometimes
called a switch, but the switch really is only one part of the turnout."

Jack Burgess
Newark, CA


Re: Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

Turnout is a model railroad term used to avoid confusion with certain toggle
or push-button power routing devices.



Fer instance when Otto tells Lyle to “through switch 8” so he can use block
#8 just as poor Richards runs through turnout #8 causing his brand new Kohs
and Company O scale Big Boy to the floor.



But some modelers, notably guy whose name escape through some of the holes
had a rather well known railroad called the “troll and Elfin.” I think his
last name was Knott’s and possibly Richard for a first name. Anyway, one of
the neat scenes on the layout was a cemetery named “Knotts Bury Farm.” In
one of his articles he said about switches “No, dadgum, I do not have
turnouts.”



Whether the term originated with Lin Westcott I have no idea.



John Hagen



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
soolinehistory
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 10:30 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Throwing Turnouts, was [STMFC] Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB







--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , w m
<bulletmims@...> wrote:

I agree with Mike. "Throwing a turnout"Â (and "throwing a switch")Â is
commonly used by those who work in the railroad industry (although it is not
usually literally done in anger)...

Harumpf! The operating people on a railroad have very little idea what a
turnout is, since all they deal with is the switch.

As I'm prone to say, "A switchman can line a switch, but it takes the whole
track gang to line a turnout."

Dennis





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

Brian Ehni <behni@...>
 

Which is different from the Canadian "boot to the head" (Tai Kwan Leep).
8^)


Thanks!
--

Brian P. Ehni

From: midrly <midrly@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:37 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Throwing Turnouts, was [STMFC] Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB






Like anything else, regional dialects creep in on the railroad.

Taking a train back into Canada just south of the GTW Mount Clemens Sub. at
Detroit's Beaubien interlocking on the former D&TSL, my pilot referred to a
"banner" on a switch stand. I knew what he was referring to, but my
conductor gave us a puzzled look. The Canadian railway English expression
is a "target", not a "banner", on a switch stand.

A loco engineer is sometimes referred to as a "driver" in Atlantic Canada on
CN. And the act of uncoupling a loco from a train in the Montreal area is
often called "making headpin" (with a French equivalent to boot). THAT one
had me bewildered the first time that it was said to me as an instruction.
"When you make headpin"...what do you mean by that????

Steve Lucas..


Re: Weathering Lighter Colored Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

I have seen plenty of freight cars with bright white deposits and streaks on their
sides -- cars that carry gypsum, or kaolin, or trona, or just happen to be parked near
a facility that produces such stuff.

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "rreed_eagle" <twogreyhounds@...>

Good idea, but I would agree with most artists, who would say
NEVER use white, use neutral gray.
Never say never in the world of weathering. If you use a straight Zinc White wash by itself, to try to lighten up existing weathering for example, your model may end up with a blue bounce that looks terrible so that's something I personally would avoid. But mixing Zinc White with umbers or whatever offers excellent results. Of course it all depends on the prototype rolling stock you're going off of with how you mix your oils, at least that's my first rule.

Ryan Reed


Re: Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Tony,
Absolutely nothing wrong with the term "turnout", it's what the Engineering Dept. calls the whole assemblage... Switch, frog, guard rails, timber, etc.
The operating people only concern themselves with the switch, since that's the only thing they can move (unless they put something badly on the ground, then they can move a lot of things :)
Yes, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise on the term itself. When I did materials research on railroad rails, I was for a time on the AAR Research Committee, and in fact co-authored some technical papers on rail performance in conference proceedings, both American and European. On that Committee, I heard lots of commentary from old- head track supervisors, and as you say, the track guys think only of turnouts.
But the Kalmbach/Westcott concept was never to refer to anything about a turnout, including the switch part, as anything but a turnout. Whether the avoidance of confusion with electrical switches was worth it, I can't say.

Tony Thompson
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937;
e-mail: thompson@...


Re: Throwing Turnouts

Nolan Hinshaw
 

On Apr 26, 2012, at 10:27 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

The story has been that it was the fine folks at Kalmbach who
introduced the term "turnout" to distinguish from electrical switches.
Railroaders I have talked to have the same reaction as Jeff's, "What
in the world is a turnout?" -- unless they are modelers, of course. <g>
I have the 1945[0] edition of _Track and Turnout Engineering_, C. M. Kurtz, Simmond-Boardman, whose original copyright date is 1910, which illustrates merely by its existence the differences in jargon between the different railroad crafts. I must say though, that never in my fairly careful perusal and study of that tome have I ever read a word describing the operation of the moving bits (switch) of a turnout.

My guess is that those fine folk *vectored* some jargon from the world of railroading-in-full-size to the world of railroading-in- miniature.

The book happens to be a goodie, and recommends throughout the use of AREA 1941 standards for the design of turnouts and the layout of track complexes like stations and yards. Since Kurtz was an employee of The Friendly (Espee), there's also some noticeable Espee content there, too. There's a sufficiently large amount of material on surveying to satisfy the true geek, some of which seems eminently suitable for plotting track centerlines in difficult areas.

[0] at least Steam era, if not exactly freight cars, although the book discusses the significance of car length in laying out repair facilities
--
"Not only is it not right, it's not even wrong!"
Wolfgang Pauli, perpetrator of the Pauli Exclusion Principle


Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

midrly <midrly@...>
 

Dennis--

My post should have addressed your point about lining turnouts. My omission!

I've seen trackmen line turnouts and track. With lining bars accompanied by a lot of effort and profanity in many languages. I'm just glad that it's easier to line turnouts and track in HO scale. And that I started in the Transportation department instead of the section... :)

The expression "equilateral turnout" appears in the current Canadian Rail Operating Rules, by the way.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:

Steve,

Did you read what I wrote?



"A switchman can line a switch, but it takes the whole track gang to line a turnout."

Dennis

Tony,

Absolutely nothing wrong with the term "turnout", it's what the Engineering Dept. calls the whole assemblage... Switch, frog, guard rails, timber, etc.

The operating people only concern themselves with the switch, since that's the only thing they can move (unless they put something badly on the ground, then they can move a lot of things :)

Dennis


Re: Throwing Turnouts

midrly <midrly@...>
 

I believe that the expression originated with MR editor Linn Westcott, who gave our hobby so much else that I am willing to forgive him this.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Jeff Coleman wrote:
During my brakeman days we would throw a switch or line the iron or
track. I do not recall any trainman using the word turnout.
The story has been that it was the fine folks at Kalmbach who
introduced the term "turnout" to distinguish from electrical switches.
Railroaders I have talked to have the same reaction as Jeff's, "What
in the world is a turnout?" -- unless they are modelers, of course. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

Dennis Storzek
 

Steve,

Did you read what I wrote?



"A switchman can line a switch, but it takes the whole track gang to line a turnout."

Dennis

Tony,

Absolutely nothing wrong with the term "turnout", it's what the Engineering Dept. calls the whole assemblage... Switch, frog, guard rails, timber, etc.

The operating people only concern themselves with the switch, since that's the only thing they can move (unless they put something badly on the ground, then they can move a lot of things :)

Dennis


Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

midrly <midrly@...>
 

Like anything else, regional dialects creep in on the railroad.

Taking a train back into Canada just south of the GTW Mount Clemens Sub. at Detroit's Beaubien interlocking on the former D&TSL, my pilot referred to a "banner" on a switch stand. I knew what he was referring to, but my conductor gave us a puzzled look. The Canadian railway English expression is a "target", not a "banner", on a switch stand.

A loco engineer is sometimes referred to as a "driver" in Atlantic Canada on CN. And the act of uncoupling a loco from a train in the Montreal area is often called "making headpin" (with a French equivalent to boot). THAT one had me bewildered the first time that it was said to me as an instruction. "When you make headpin"...what do you mean by that????

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "traininsp" <Bbear746@...> wrote:

During my brakeman days we would throw a switch or line the iron or track. I do not recall any trainman using the word turnout.
Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., w m <bulletmims@> wrote:

I agree with Mike. "Throwing a turnout" (and "throwing a switch") is commonly used by those who work in the railroad industry (although it is not usually literally done in anger)...
Harumpf! The operating people on a railroad have very little idea what a turnout is, since all they deal with is the switch.

As I'm prone to say, "A switchman can line a switch, but it takes the whole track gang to line a turnout."

Dennis


Re: Throwing Turnouts

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jeff Coleman wrote:
During my brakeman days we would throw a switch or line the iron or track. I do not recall any trainman using the word turnout.
The story has been that it was the fine folks at Kalmbach who introduced the term "turnout" to distinguish from electrical switches. Railroaders I have talked to have the same reaction as Jeff's, "What in the world is a turnout?" -- unless they are modelers, of course. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Throwing Turnouts, was Re: Truck bearings: Solid vs. RB

midrly <midrly@...>
 

Dennis--

Um, I'm one of those "operating people" as a conductor and loco engineer on a Canadian class one railway. I also have been handlaying some HO scale Code 55 and 70 turnouts the past little while. (Thanks be to FasTracks PC board ties!)

My afternoon job pays the bills, and constantly reminds me why I don't "throw a turnout". My back probably wouldn't be able to take it, and if I "threw turnouts" at work, there'd be multi-levels on the ground with my road buying a lot of new damaged Equinoxes and Terrains sans serial numbers.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., w m <bulletmims@> wrote:

I agree with Mike. "Throwing a turnout" (and "throwing a switch") is commonly used by those who work in the railroad industry (although it is not usually literally done in anger)...
Harumpf! The operating people on a railroad have very little idea what a turnout is, since all they deal with is the switch.

As I'm prone to say, "A switchman can line a switch, but it takes the whole track gang to line a turnout."

Dennis

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