Hi, Bill. Looks like I'm just a little late to the party. If you run additional copies sometime in the future, I'm still interested in obtaining a copy.
Norm Larkin

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /CV_boxcar_40055_end.jpg
Uploaded by : cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
Description : End view of Central Vermont 40000-series boxcar

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/CV_boxcar_40055_end.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
Regards,

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>

Just to clarify when Jim McFarlane told me about the steel "plate" on the ends of the 40000 series cars I thought he was referring to the flat plate on the bottom of the end that was in place of 3-4 of the lower horizontal boards. The Steam Shack/F&C resin kit duplicates this - sort of - since on the model the steel plate is taller than the prototype.

I will attempt to upload a picture of the end of the car into the Files section - and will add a posting to my blog (www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com) shortly.

Marty

Hi John,

Thank you. Yes, please mail me a copy of what you have. I have over 25%
of my cars scratch built. I have plenty of technical information to be
able to get a fairly accurate model, plus I do not like resin, nor do I
like the cost of resin cars. I have a few resin models and some I do not
care at all for.

Currently I am building all of my new cars and buildings from scratch.

My address is:

Joel Holmes
425 Joel Holmes Lane
Cookeville, TN 38501-9633

Thank you very much.

Joel

Why scratch build? The Protowest resin model is a replica of the 34-foot car.

I have a small 1906 Rodger catalog which has several pictures of this car (called the Model C. S.) , and a drawing; half of it a side elevation and half a cross-section, but neither is detailed enough for scratch-building. I can copy these pages and snail mail them if wanted.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL

--- In STMFC@..., Guy Wilber <guycwilber@...> wrote:

ARA Plate 305 (circa 1930) is titled: END PLATE. The revised 1930 drawing is a pressed 5/16" member with the first leg being 3 1/8" high, inward section 5" in depth and an upper leg 8 1/4" high. The upper leg is cut to the pitch of the roof.


"Now that we're through the definition of "plate", the distinctive feature of the piece that both CV and CN used is that it's a steel pressing, rather than a length of standard section structural steel."


I am not sure if a standard section was ever utilized for this particular member, at least not within the ARA designs. Flat plate was pressed into the "Z". The drawing called out for a 5/16" radius at each of the two bends. Any other member utilizing a standard section is called out as such.


Kindest Regards,


Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada

Guy,

That's because the ARA designs are quite modern in relation to what we are talking about. You have to back fifteen or twenty years earlier to find examples of fabricated end plates. I looked back through bunch of stuff I copied out of "Railway Mechanical Engineer" years ago, and find a CPR stock car that used a Z section with wood fill above; Milwaukee Road cars whit end plates fabed from flat plate steel and rolled angle, and an N&W car where only the angle is shown on the framing drawing, the sheet steel filler must not have been considered structural.

The common one piece replacement for these fabricated assemblies was a flat plate with the top edge flanged inward and the bottom edge flanged outward to connect with the top of the posts. The part on the CV car takes this a step further, and flanges the bottom leg downward again to connect with both the face of the Z section end posts and the angle section corner posts. This design is hardly unique to the CV; CN used it on several thousand 40' boxcars with composite ends, which, IIRC, were drawn in Mainline Modeler a number of years ago.

Dennis

Hi All,

Does anyone have a plan or photo of the Hart 34' wood gondola? I would
like to scratch build several for my layout and need some reference. I
have checked the 1906 car builders encyclopedia and did not find a plan.

Joel Holmes

.

Hi List Members,

Nice image of an AA single-sheathed box car from this same collection.

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth11855/m1/1/sizes/xl/?q=railroad

Enjoy!

- Claus Schlund

Sorry, this was meant for Jim Dick.



Excuse the bandwidth.



Steve Hile



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
shile315
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 7:23 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] RI Freight Trains to the Twin Cities





Jim,

You were asking me some questions at the Naperville RPM about RI freight
schedules to the Twin Cities yard at Inver Grove. I have one of those line
charts that shows the routes and times for principal freight trains in 1954.

Basically, it shows two scheduled freights coming into Inver Grove each
night.

Train 914 is supposed to get to Inver Grove about 2 AM. It originated in
Kansas City at 11 AM getting to Des Moines about noon the following day,
leaving at 2:30 PM. It is due out of Manly at 8:30 PM to arrive at IG at 2
AM.

The other train also originates at Kansas City as Train 912. Its to leave KC
at 4 AM getting to Des Moines around 9 PM and then going on to Manly. At
Manly, it is combined with train 99 (Westbound) out of Silvis (8 AM) getting
to Cedar Rapids around 11 AM and to Manly around 3:30 PM. When it is
combined with 912, it becomes 98 (Northbound)and 98-912 leaves Manly at 4:15
to make Inver Grove by 11 PM.

I hope this makes sense. I can answer questions about the chart, but have no
other direct or indirect knowledge of freight schedules and timing along
this line. The time between KC and DM for both times seems pretty long, but
there could be some scheduled meets and/or time built in for switching out
cars at yards along the way.

I couldn't find your email address in my address book, so, I hope that this
gets to you.

Regards,
Steve Hile
shile@... <mailto:shile%40mindspring.com>

What prototypes can this kit be used to model?

Cyril Durrenberger

--- In STMFC@..., "Eric" <eric@...> wrote:

I am not familiar with railroads other than the PRR, B&O and W&LE that employed a similar design with new cars.

Newburgh & South Shore comes to mind, and there were a variety of other small roads and industrial users that had H21a or H25 clones. There were some other designs of increasing differences, Lehigh Valley's composite quads being about as far as you could go and still be "similar".

David Thompson

Jim,

You were asking me some questions at the Naperville RPM about RI freight schedules to the Twin Cities yard at Inver Grove. I have one of those line charts that shows the routes and times for principal freight trains in 1954.

Basically, it shows two scheduled freights coming into Inver Grove each night.

Train 914 is supposed to get to Inver Grove about 2 AM. It originated in Kansas City at 11 AM getting to Des Moines about noon the following day, leaving at 2:30 PM. It is due out of Manly at 8:30 PM to arrive at IG at 2 AM.

The other train also originates at Kansas City as Train 912. Its to leave KC at 4 AM getting to Des Moines around 9 PM and then going on to Manly. At Manly, it is combined with train 99 (Westbound) out of Silvis (8 AM) getting to Cedar Rapids around 11 AM and to Manly around 3:30 PM. When it is combined with 912, it becomes 98 (Northbound)and 98-912 leaves Manly at 4:15 to make Inver Grove by 11 PM.

I hope this makes sense. I can answer questions about the chart, but have no other direct or indirect knowledge of freight schedules and timing along this line. The time between KC and DM for both times seems pretty long, but there could be some scheduled meets and/or time built in for switching out cars at yards along the way.

I couldn't find your email address in my address book, so, I hope that this gets to you.

Regards,
Steve Hile
shile@...

Frank,
 
Thanks for the additional information; it would sure be swell to get an image...     I would prefer to have a few in VGN markings.
 
Brad Andonian


________________________________
From: frank <bongiovanni1@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 12:56 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: H21 Hopper Cars: PRR and who else??!


 



Since Ben says his library is in storage, and since he helped me when I was researching VGN coal cars, I think I can help.

Based on the best information we've gotten on these cars so far: VGN leased a pile of them from the PRR, they may have been renumbered, we have no confirmation as to whether or not they were repainted but suspect that they were not, they were returned to the PRR in approximately 18 months, Probably because the entire lease period was during WWII we have yet to find a picture of any of them during the lease period [now that I've said that one will turn up]. I think Ben told me that John Teichmoller told him that the Bowser paint scheme was total imagination.

If there's better information out there we (VGN fans)would love to have it.

Frank Bongiovanni

--- In mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:

Brad Andorian wrote:
"I would appreciate confirmation that VGN and N&W operated H21's. If you could
also supply car numbers or a webpage for reference I would be grateful."

N&W definitely leased Class H21As from PRR, and this is backed by photographic
evidence.  See N&WHS "The Arrow" March/April 1994 issue for details.

I'm less certain about the VGN lease; it's detailed in a short article in the
July/August 1997 issue of The Arrow, but I have not seen any photos of these
cars in VGN lettering.

Most of my magazine library is in storage, and I don't have ready access to
these articles at the moment.


Ben Hom

. 

Guys:

In my future projects pile I have 2 undec red caboose 40 ft DD cars with W
corners. I'd like to do a straight up trade of one of these w corner cars
for a square corner 40 ft DD car. So if anyone has a spare 40 ft DD square
corner car and wants to trade for a w corner car contact me OFF LIST (Caps
added to stay out of jail)



Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga, NY

Prrk41361@...

Since Ben says his library is in storage, and since he helped me when I was researching VGN coal cars, I think I can help.

Based on the best information we've gotten on these cars so far: VGN leased a pile of them from the PRR, they may have been renumbered, we have no confirmation as to whether or not they were repainted but suspect that they were not, they were returned to the PRR in approximately 18 months, Probably because the entire lease period was during WWII we have yet to find a picture of any of them during the lease period [now that I've said that one will turn up]. I think Ben told me that John Teichmoller told him that the Bowser paint scheme was total imagination.

If there's better information out there we (VGN fans)would love to have it.

Frank Bongiovanni

On Oct 28, 2012, at 10:37 AM, John C. La Rue, Jr. wrote:

One reason for its popularity the first decades of the twentieth
century was that it was promoted as being usable for general
freight as well as ballast. Ballast in the summer - coal, coke,
sugar beets, or what have you during the fall and winter "rushes".
This was why the cars were usually found in the ORER in the revenue
car list, though often still called "ballast" cars.

Rodger Ballast Car Company patented the center-unloading feature in
1888, and Rodger, in fact, did not manufacture the cars themselves.
They took orders, designed the cars, and had them made by
established car builders. There was a wide variety of these cars
made, especially after improvements patented by E. S. Hart (best
known as an electrical engineer) were added. It was then that the
cars were marketed as the "Rodger - Hart convertible gondola".

Contrary to the statement by Mid-continental, some versions of the
car could dump both center and sides simultaneously. When unloading
to the side, the center doors could be "peaked" upwards so that
when the side doors were unlatched the ballast simply fell
out...most of it, anyway, because there was about a three-plank
wide flat ledge along each side. Alternatively, the doors could be
laid flat and the ends removed so that the cars could be unloaded
by pulling a plow through them, preferably with a Lidgerwood unloader.

As usual, John knows what he's talking about. However, it should be
added that the Rodger-Hart design changed rapidly from the turn of
the century, when the cars were 34' long with wood bodies and truss
rod underframes, through the early 1920s. In 1902 they were 36' long
with steel center sills and truss rods under the side sills. By
1906, they had become 40' cars with fishbelly steel side sills, and
later in that same year, further improvement of the design introduced
all steel body framing with wood sheathing and floors. In all of
these designs, the process of converting the car from center to side
dumping and vice-versa was awkward and labor intensive

The Santa Fe bought cars of all these descriptions, all of them
different in appearance. The 34' wood cars didn't last long, and the
36' cars of class Ga-K were short-lived as well, but the 40'
fishbelly-side-sill Ga-N class cars of 1906, the steel-body-frame
cars of class Ga-Q (also 2906), and the similar Ga-S class cars of
1910 largely served the Santa Fe's needs for ballast cars through the
1920s and '30s and many survived through World War II. None of the
Santa Fe Rodger-Hart convertible ballast cars were like the C&NW car
shown in the 1919 and 1922 Car Builders' Cyclopedias, nor at all
similar in appearance to the crude Silver Streak model, much less to
the clumsy and inaccurate Train Miniature model. Those models were
attempts to replicate the design with massive steel truss underframes
that was built for the Southern Pacific in 1920 as their class W-50-3
(and doubtless for some other railroads as well).

Rodger-Hart shifted focus dramatically in the 1920s, developing all-
steel hopper cars which could be dumped to the sides, to the center,
or to any combination of sides and center without reconfiguring the
car. These steel hoppers were 32' long 50 ton cars at first, but by
about 1930s the design had been enlarged to 70 ton cars of about 40'
in length, and these became the most common North American ballast
hoppers on many railroads in the 1940s and '50s. The Santa Fe began
buying them in 1940 to replace its 30+ year old Rodger-Hart gondolas
and by 1953 had purchased 1700 of them.

The Santa Fe's history with these cars is covered in my open top car
book published by the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling
Society (www.atsfrr.com) and the Southern Pacific cars are shown in
Vol. 1 of Tony Thompson's Southern Pacific Freight Cars series
published by Signature Press (www.signaturepress.com).

John is correct in pointing out that all versions of the Rodger-Hart
designs were promoted on the basis that they could be employed in
revenue service as well as ballast service, but on most railroads
they were confined to ballast loading and did not go off-line. The
Union Pacific was one exception, as they often used their Rodger-Hart
ballast cars in coal service when not being used as maintenance-of-
way cars.

Richard Hendrickson

Doug Junda wrote:

We did do a model of the Hart Ballets car. Currently we have about 20 of them left in stock. The version the we produced with the all wood version. they could be built with the center doors in any of the configurations.

This is a superb kit, but is the earliest truss-rod Hart gondola. That is not the same prototype as either the Silver Streak kit, nor the Train Miniature car. I hope one of these days we do get a quality resin kit like the Protowest car, for the later Hart versions.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Gene Green wrote:

An earlier version of this kit (Silver Streak if memory serves) was wood and cardboard with cast metal side trusses that were set back under the car somewhat but not really far enough. The wooden sides came assembled and painted while the metal trusses and all else was unpainted. All the detail was, in my opinion, rather heavy-handed but back in the 1950s it was state-of-the-art.

The Silver Streak kit is reasonably faithful in many respects (though as Gene says, with kinda crude details -- those can be replaced). The real problem is that like most early Silver Streak cars, it is about ten percent oversize in all dimensions. That's a little challenging to correct. But unless coupled to a correct-size Hart car, it probably won't be evident to most observers.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Scott Haycock wrote:

Tony,
I didn't realize there were 'versions' of this car. I thought it was a standard design, like the Mathers or Pullman-Standard cars.

If you look at Cycs from the early 20th century, you will see a variety of Hart gondola designs, originally truss rods and all-wood bodies, then with steel underframes and wood superstructures, then with more steel in the body. It was the various Hart mechanisms for dumping inside or outside the rails, or both, that were standard.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

One reason for its popularity the first decades of the twentieth century was that it was promoted as being usable for general freight as well as ballast. Ballast in the summer - coal, coke, sugar beets, or what have you during the fall and winter "rushes". This was why the cars were usually found in the ORER in the revenue car list, though often still called "ballast" cars.

Rodger Ballast Car Company patented the center-unloading feature in 1888, and Rodger, in fact, did not manufacture the cars themselves. They took orders, designed the cars, and had them made by established car builders. There was a wide variety of these cars made, especially after improvements patented by E. S. Hart (best known as an electrical engineer) were added. It was then that the cars were marketed as the "Rodger - Hart convertible gondola".

Contrary to the statement by Mid-continental, some versions of the car could dump both center and sides simultaneously. When unloading to the side, the center doors could be "peaked" upwards so that when the side doors were unlatched the ballast simply fell out...most of it, anyway, because there was about a three-plank wide flat ledge along each side. Alternatively, the doors could be laid flat and the ends removed so that the cars could be unloaded by pulling a plow through them, preferably with a Lidgerwood unloader.

Rodger also offered a "double plow distributing car", simply a flat car with a pair of plows under it that were raised and lowered with hand wheels. Red Ball sold a kit for a model of this car for many years. Coupled behind a string of the Trains-Miniature cars, it would make a nice, if somewhat crude (by today's standards) model of an early ballast train.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL