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Re: Train Miniature Hart Gondola
John C. La Rue, Jr. <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
One reason for its popularity the first decades of the twentieth century was that it was promoted as being usable for general freight as well as ballast. Ballast in the summer - coal, coke, sugar beets, or what have you during the fall and winter "rushes". This was why the cars were usually found in the ORER in the revenue car list, though often still called "ballast" cars.
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Rodger Ballast Car Company patented the center-unloading feature in 1888, and Rodger, in fact, did not manufacture the cars themselves. They took orders, designed the cars, and had them made by established car builders. There was a wide variety of these cars made, especially after improvements patented by E. S. Hart (best known as an electrical engineer) were added. It was then that the cars were marketed as the "Rodger - Hart convertible gondola". Contrary to the statement by Mid-continental, some versions of the car could dump both center and sides simultaneously. When unloading to the side, the center doors could be "peaked" upwards so that when the side doors were unlatched the ballast simply fell out...most of it, anyway, because there was about a three-plank wide flat ledge along each side. Alternatively, the doors could be laid flat and the ends removed so that the cars could be unloaded by pulling a plow through them, preferably with a Lidgerwood unloader. Rodger also offered a "double plow distributing car", simply a flat car with a pair of plows under it that were raised and lowered with hand wheels. Red Ball sold a kit for a model of this car for many years. Coupled behind a string of the Trains-Miniature cars, it would make a nice, if somewhat crude (by today's standards) model of an early ballast train. John C. La Rue, Jr. Bonita Springs, FL -----Original Message-----
From: Andy Harman <gsgondola@...> To: STMFC <STMFC@...> Sent: Sun, Oct 28, 2012 2:14 am Subject: [STMFC] Train Miniature Hart Gondola http://www.ebay.com/itm/261012077998 I picked up one of these at a show last weekend. It was real cheap and I had never seen anything like it before - and I've pretty much seen about every plastic freight car. It had no markings indicating the manufacturer. Painted green with N&W lettering - the half moon logo which seemed too new for the car. The previous owner heavily weathered it (not near as bad as the one in the above ebay auction). I figured it was some AHM car I had never heard of... but later at the same show I found one new in the box - Train Miniature and the box tab said it was a Hart gondola. Oddly enough back in the 70s I thought I had bought one of everything.... but never saw this car before. I don't think Walthers has ever re-issued it, but maybe it just flew below my radar. It's a pretty crude model, but it's an unusual car and I'm wondering how accurate it is and who may have had them and what they were used for. Maybe add another drop-bottom gondola to my future display shelf which will just include cool gondolas regardless of era, or even scale (I still have an unbuilt PBL Sn3 drop bottom). Right now it's going to the wife's layout since she's the one who found it... if I decide to do a serious build on one and can find good data, I'll seek out an unbuilt original kit to start from. Andy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar
Armand Premo
Not to prolong the discussion,but the shape of the object in question is rather unique.Admittedly my knowledge on this subject is limited, but I can't recall ever seeing this shape on any other single sheathed freight car.Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: Don To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 9:59 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar --- In STMFC@..., "Armand Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote: > > What is wrong with Drip Cap?Armand Premo > ----- Original Message ----- > From: soolinehistory > To: STMFC@... > Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:43 AM > Subject: [STMFC] Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar Hi Armand, Primarily that this is in fact a structural member. Were the design history of the car known to us I suspect we would find that while it was designed as a structural member some engineer was sharp enough to realize it COULD also serve as a drip cap and thus designed it accordingly. I am not aware, however, of such parts being designated by a purpose that is actually secondary to their primary purpose. Thus the term "drip cap" is not properly descriptive. Most cordially, Don Valentine > --- In STMFC@..., "Don" <riverman_vt@> wrote: > > > > Hi Marty, > > > > Clearly the simple and logical way out of your dilemna is to call the piece the "top end plate" as Dennis originally suggested as that eliminates any confusion as to where a "plate" might be applied, top or someplace lower. Like you, and inspite of the CBC definition, I do not accept the terminology that a "plate" is always the piece on top. > > That might be the case with wooden construction but I doubt it holds with steel owing to its being rolled as "plate steel". This the "top end plate" seems to be the most appropriate description as it served for more than a simple "drip strip". > > > > Cordially, Don Valentine > > I can't say I disagree. The term "plate" was initially used in wood car construction, so there was little confusion with "plate" steel. > > Also the member across the bottom of car framing is almost universally called a "sill" (side sill, end sill) because in invariably spreads the load and transmits it to the bolsters. This differs from common architectural usage, where the "sole plate" of a stud wall, for instance, serves to space the studs, but doesn't actually distribute their load, and so isn't actually a sill, and therefore isn't called a sill. > > Now that we're through the definition of "plate", the distinctive feature of the piece that both CV and CN used is that it's a steel pressing, rather than a length of standard section structural steel. > > Dennis > > > > > > > |
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Re: Train Miniature Hart Gondola
Doug Junda
We did do a model of the Hart Ballets car. Currently we have about 20 of them left in stock. The version the we produced with the all wood version. they could be built with the center doors in any of the configurations. The kits sells for $50.00 they are a resin one piece body with all of the detail part. we provide the Hart/roger decals but, no road names as it seems that quite a few of the railroads had them. They also include trucks with them.
We do not plan on doing a re-run of the kits, so when they are gone that is is. You can contact me at info@.... Thanks, Doug Junda |
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Re: H21 Hopper Cars: PRR and who else??!
Eric Hansmann
The Wheeling & Lake Erie had 70-ton hoppers similar to the PRR H21 class. 1000 cars in the 77000-77999 series were built by Pressed Steel Car Co of McKees Rocks, PA, and installed in 1917. I have an image posted on this page featuring the 1926 W&LE freight car fleet:
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http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/wle-freight-car-fleet-of-1926/ The W&LE cars were built with longitudinal Enterprise hoppers that discharged to the sides (and possibly to the center but I cannot determine that). The cars were rebuilt in the 1930s with traditional hopper bays and doors and all doors pointing towards the center of the car. Dean Payne displayed a Westerfield kitbash at the 2011 RPM-East event. http://www.pbase.com/ehansmann/image/133620238 I am not familiar with railroads other than the PRR, B&O and W&LE that employed a similar design with new cars. Eric Eric Hansmann El Paso, TX --- In STMFC@..., "cereshill" <cereshill@...> wrote:
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Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar
Armand Premo
Just as good as anything else that has been suggested Dennis, <VBG>Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: soolinehistory To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 11:29 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar --- In STMFC@..., "Armand Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote: > > What is wrong with Drip Cap?Armand Premo Why call it something it isn't? Dennis |
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Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar
soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "Armand Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote:
Why call it something it isn't? Dennis |
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Re: Train Miniature Hart Gondola
Tom Vanwormer
Protowest scale models produces excellent HO scale models of this car.
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While not affiliated with the company, I am a very satisfied customer. Tom VanWormer Monument CO Anthony Thompson wrote:
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Re: Train Miniature Hart Gondola
Scott – These cars were built under contract by AC&F. There were at least 3 iterations as the use of steel increased. You can see them in the AC&F disk offered by Westerfield Models LLC from the new owner. – Al Westerfield
From: Scott H. Haycock Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 6:44 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Train Miniature Hart Gondola Tony, I didn't realize there were 'versions' of this car. I thought it was a standard design, like the Mathers or Pullman-Standard cars. Scott Haycock Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm ent ----- Original Message ----- The model isn't too bad except for the underbody truss which should NOT be flush with the side sill, but back under the car. I can provide photos of the SP versions to you (off list) if you want. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com Publishers of books on railroad history [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar
Don <riverman_vt@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "Armand Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote:
Hi Armand, Primarily that this is in fact a structural member. Were the design history of the car known to us I suspect we would find that while it was designed as a structural member some engineer was sharp enough to realize it COULD also serve as a drip cap and thus designed it accordingly. I am not aware, however, of such parts being designated by a purpose that is actually secondary to their primary purpose. Thus the term "drip cap" is not properly descriptive. Most cordially, Don Valentine --- In STMFC@..., "Don" <riverman_vt@> wrote: |
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Re: Train Miniature Hart Gondola
Gene <bierglaeser@...>
An earlier version of this kit (Silver Streak if memory serves) was wood and cardboard with cast metal side trusses that were set back under the car somewhat but not really far enough. The wooden sides came assembled and painted while the metal trusses and all else was unpainted. All the detail was, in my opinion, rather heavy-handed but back in the 1950s it was state-of-the-art.
The prototype of this car was illustrated in more than one Car Builders' Cyclopedia. Because it was handy I'm looking at pages 148 and 150 of the 1922 Cyc. Page 148 has three photos of a C&NW car while 150 has plan and side elevation. There doesn't seem to be an end elevation. I have a number of Rodger Ballast Car Co. drawings but not this particular car. Gene Green |
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Re: Train Miniature Hart Gondola
Clark Cooper
Andy:
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See the December 2011 Railroad Model Craftsman for a review of the ProtoWest Models resin kit of an early all-wood version of the Hart gondola. Mid-Continent Railway Museum has a composite version built in 1914, from the CNW. Pictures here: http://www.midcontinent.org/collectn/woodfrt/cnw96791.html -Clark Cooper On Oct 28, 2012, at 1:14 AM, Andy Harman wrote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261012077998 |
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Re: Naperville RPM 2012 Conference
Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>
And I'd like to thank Joe for taking the bull by the horns and subjecting himself to the stresses of hosting this event.
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It takes many people to make the event a success, but one poor soul has to lead the charge. Well done, Joe. Pierre Oliver --- In STMFC@..., "alinejoe3" <alinejoe3@...> wrote:
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Re: Train Miniature Hart Gondola
Scott H. Haycock
Tony,
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I didn't realize there were 'versions' of this car. I thought it was a standard design, like the Mathers or Pullman-Standard cars. Scott Haycock Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm ent ----- Original Message -----
The model isn't too bad except for the underbody truss which should NOT be flush with the side sill, but back under the car. I can provide photos of the SP versions to you (off list) if you want. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Re: Train Miniature Hart Gondola
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Andy Harman wrote:
I figured it was some AHM car I had never heard of... but later at the same show I found one new in the box - Train Miniature and the box tab said it was a HartThe model isn't too bad except for the underbody truss which should NOT be flush with the side sill, but back under the car. I can provide photos of the SP versions to you (off list) if you want. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Re: Naperville RPM 2012 Conference
Andy Harman
At 07:20 AM 10/27/2012 +0000, you wrote:
I would like to thank all the attendees, speakers, vendors, my wife and her helper for making the event a great success. Also Bob Kosic and all the modular guys for all there hard work setting up and taking down.As you know I was unable to make it this year. I had some medical "fun" back in Jan-Feb that some of you are aware of that burned both dollars and vacation days to where I've got two months to go and I'm 3 days overdrawn on my vacation time, and even if I could have finagled the days off, the $$ were just too tight. 2013 is a new year... and I'll be going to Cocoa hopefully in good health and with a fresh vacation calendar, and hopefully when next October comes around for the 20th year I'll be there. I think out of 19 Naperville meets I've been to all but 3 of them. Andy |
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Train Miniature Hart Gondola
Andy Harman
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261012077998
I picked up one of these at a show last weekend. It was real cheap and I had never seen anything like it before - and I've pretty much seen about every plastic freight car. It had no markings indicating the manufacturer. Painted green with N&W lettering - the half moon logo which seemed too new for the car. The previous owner heavily weathered it (not near as bad as the one in the above ebay auction). I figured it was some AHM car I had never heard of... but later at the same show I found one new in the box - Train Miniature and the box tab said it was a Hart gondola. Oddly enough back in the 70s I thought I had bought one of everything.... but never saw this car before. I don't think Walthers has ever re-issued it, but maybe it just flew below my radar. It's a pretty crude model, but it's an unusual car and I'm wondering how accurate it is and who may have had them and what they were used for. Maybe add another drop-bottom gondola to my future display shelf which will just include cool gondolas regardless of era, or even scale (I still have an unbuilt PBL Sn3 drop bottom). Right now it's going to the wife's layout since she's the one who found it... if I decide to do a serious build on one and can find good data, I'll seek out an unbuilt original kit to start from. Andy |
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Re: CP "minibox"
billsoman
They have not been released. Targeting early next year per their website http://www.truelinetrains.ca/home/darren-s-blog/thecmtconundrum
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Bill Sornsin, Seattle --- In STMFC@..., "John" <golden1014@...> wrote:
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Re: H21 Hopper Cars: PRR and who else??!
Benjamin Hom
Brad Andorian wrote:
"I would appreciate confirmation that VGN and N&W operated H21's. If you could also supply car numbers or a webpage for reference I would be grateful." N&W definitely leased Class H21As from PRR, and this is backed by photographic evidence. See N&WHS "The Arrow" March/April 1994 issue for details. I'm less certain about the VGN lease; it's detailed in a short article in the July/August 1997 issue of The Arrow, but I have not seen any photos of these cars in VGN lettering. Most of my magazine library is in storage, and I don't have ready access to these articles at the moment. Ben Hom . |
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H21 Hopper Cars: PRR and who else??!
Brad Andonian
Fellas,
I would appreciate confirmation that VGN and N&W operated H21's. If you could also supply car numbers or a webpage for reference I would be grateful. Thanks, Brad Andonian |
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Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar
Armand Premo
What is wrong with Drip Cap?Armand Premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: soolinehistory To: STMFC@... Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:43 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: End brackets on CV 40000-series boxcar --- In STMFC@..., "Don" <riverman_vt@...> wrote: > > Hi Marty, > > Clearly the simple and logical way out of your dilemna is to call the piece the "top end plate" as Dennis originally suggested as that eliminates any confusion as to where a "plate" might be applied, top or someplace lower. Like you, and inspite of the CBC definition, I do not accept the terminology that a "plate" is always the piece on top. > That might be the case with wooden construction but I doubt it holds with steel owing to its being rolled as "plate steel". This the "top end plate" seems to be the most appropriate description as it served for more than a simple "drip strip". > > Cordially, Don Valentine I can't say I disagree. The term "plate" was initially used in wood car construction, so there was little confusion with "plate" steel. Also the member across the bottom of car framing is almost universally called a "sill" (side sill, end sill) because in invariably spreads the load and transmits it to the bolsters. This differs from common architectural usage, where the "sole plate" of a stud wall, for instance, serves to space the studs, but doesn't actually distribute their load, and so isn't actually a sill, and therefore isn't called a sill. Now that we're through the definition of "plate", the distinctive feature of the piece that both CV and CN used is that it's a steel pressing, rather than a length of standard section structural steel. Dennis |
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