Date   

Re: Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks

Cyril Durrenberger
 

For example for the Humble, Texas oil field.  For the fist year there was a massive amount of crude shipped by tank car until they built the pipeline and then the tank car shipping disappeared as quick as it started.  This was in 1904 and 1905.

Cyril Durrenberger

--- On Thu, 3/8/12, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks
To: STMFC@...
Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 5:08 PM
















 









Jim Betz wrote:

Way back when - say in the 30's or so - the majority of the
petroleum products being shipped long distances used tank cars.
Today it appears that the majority of petroleum products are piped
or moved (usually short distances) in trucks.


Jim, as far back as the turn of the 20th century, pipelines

were built from producing fields to refineries as soon as at all

possible, because of the sheer volumes of oil. Very few oil fields of

any size continued shipping via tank car for very long. Thus any tank

car loads of crude oil would only have occurred for short periods in

very specific areas. But I think you are asking about refined

products. AFAIK there were no long-distance pipelines for refined

products before the World War II pipelines described already by Bruce

Smith. It was easier to use coastwise tankers (when there were no

hostile submarines!), and even today a lot of refined product moves

all over the world, including coastwise in the U.S., by tanker. It's a

cheap shipping method.



Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...

Publishers of books on railroad history



























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Betz wrote:
Way back when - say in the 30's or so - the majority of the petroleum products being shipped long distances used tank cars. Today it appears that the majority of petroleum products are piped or moved (usually short distances) in trucks.
Jim, as far back as the turn of the 20th century, pipelines were built from producing fields to refineries as soon as at all possible, because of the sheer volumes of oil. Very few oil fields of any size continued shipping via tank car for very long. Thus any tank car loads of crude oil would only have occurred for short periods in very specific areas. But I think you are asking about refined products. AFAIK there were no long-distance pipelines for refined products before the World War II pipelines described already by Bruce Smith. It was easier to use coastwise tankers (when there were no hostile submarines!), and even today a lot of refined product moves all over the world, including coastwise in the U.S., by tanker. It's a cheap shipping method.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Lehigh Valley boxcar colors (UNCLASSIFIED)

vincent altiere
 

Elden,

Thank you very much.

Vince Altiere

In a message dated 3/8/2012 4:09:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
elden.j.gatwood@... writes:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Vince;

FWIW, I talked to Bill about some of these cars at one time, and this was
one that had asphaltum applied to the roof with potentially no paint
applied on top, hence the black color. I have seen LV (and PRR and other) cars
from this era with some overspray on the edges of the roof, but clearly
black panels and even r/b. You may want to consider "weathering" the asphaltum
by lightening it some. I have used Burnt Umber artists soil washes and
then overspray of Grimy Black to represent it, with pretty good results. The
overspray part is your option, but Modelflex Light Tuscan Oxide Red is
pretty close.

Elden Gatwood


-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
vincent
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:55 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Lehigh Valley boxcar colors



To the group,

I have Branchline 40 ft. boxcar kit #1606 painted for Lehigh Valley #63025
(new 1950).The sides and ends are bc/frt.car red.However the roof and
roofwalk are in the original black plastic. Can anyone tell me if this is
correct(needing only a flat finish)?? Or should these pieces be painted the same
color as the rest of the car? If so, what brand/shade of paint would you
ecommend?

Vince Altiere





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


"Unit Trucks"

Schuyler Larrabee
 

A friend of mine just gave me a copy of an advertisemet in the June '51 TRAINS magazine. This is an advertisement for "UNIT Truck," apparently the name of a company. It shows a photo of ERIE 21031, one of the ERIE's early two-bay covered hoppers. I believe this is the prototype of the beautiful O-scale model done by Gene Diemling and published in Model Railroader some years ago.

The ad says that the ERIE has over 7000 of it's newest cars equipped with these trucks and refers to them as having "Unit hanger-less brake rigging."

There is a lot I havent heard of, and that includes "Unit Trucks." What can you guys tell me about them. I will post a scan of the advertisement later tonight or tomorrow night, as I'm not home at the moment.

Schuyler


Looking for photo of 1,958 cu ft LO SHPX 25491-25494

Aley, Jeff A
 

Hello all,

Does anyone know of a photo of SHPX 25491-25494? I would like to confirm that the lettering placement is the same as shown at http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/89/6356/january-1992-page-22 , except that "Westvaco Wyoming" is replaced with "Lawrence Kansas".

Thanks for your help,

-Jeff


Re: Lehigh Valley boxcar colors (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Vince;

FWIW, I talked to Bill about some of these cars at one time, and this was one that had asphaltum applied to the roof with potentially no paint applied on top, hence the black color. I have seen LV (and PRR and other) cars from this era with some overspray on the edges of the roof, but clearly black panels and even r/b. You may want to consider "weathering" the asphaltum by lightening it some. I have used Burnt Umber artists soil washes and then overspray of Grimy Black to represent it, with pretty good results. The overspray part is your option, but Modelflex Light Tuscan Oxide Red is pretty close.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of vincent
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 2:55 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Lehigh Valley boxcar colors



To the group,

I have Branchline 40 ft. boxcar kit #1606 painted for Lehigh Valley #63025 (new 1950).The sides and ends are bc/frt.car red.However the roof and roofwalk are in the original black plastic. Can anyone tell me if this is correct(needing only a flat finish)?? Or should these pieces be painted the same color as the rest of the car? If so, what brand/shade of paint would you ecommend?

Vince Altiere





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: B&O Wagon Top Covered Hopper Trucks

Jim Mischke
 

In general, B&O often supplied its own truck sideframe casting patterns to the manufacturers.

Nobody makes such B&O trucks for models. No one would know what to make.

A lot more research is needed. We have memos, parts lists, an early diagram book (pre-integrated castings) and one drawing, all disembodied with nothing to connect the dots.

Do your best with what you see in the photos.

Myself, I have a stash of Accurail Bettendorfs, if anything for their correct journal box size and generic good looks.

--- In STMFC@..., "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:

Which trucks would be correct for B&O Wagon Top Hopper in the late 40's? I have getting ready to start and F&C kit, and want to get the trucks before I start.

Thanks,
Kent in KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com


items for sale

Al and Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

With the business sold we’re downsizing. Several prototype items are too large for the new house: PRR cast iron cross buck; PRR baggage car brake wheel, chain and support ( probably identical to XL box car). If interested contact me off list at westerfield@.... – Al Westerfield


Re: Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks

Bruce Smith
 

Tim,

You are off by a decade or so on the pipelines. The major pipeline to supply northern and northeastern refineries with crude were the "Big Inch" and "Little Inch" pipelines built during WWII. Prior to that time, the vast majority of crude headed to the northeast went by water. As WWII started (prior to direct US involvement) many of the tankers being used in this service were diverted to help Britain, precipitating an oil supply crisis even before Dec 7, 1941. The entry of the US into the war and subsequent rampage of German U-boats off the eastern seaboard, led to both the "pipeline on rails" which required the reactivation of tens of thousands of mothballed tank cars, and the construction of the pipelines. The Big Inch was finished to Illinois first resulting in a shift in tank car traffic to the northeast from the south and southwest to originating points in the midwest.


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

/ &#92;

__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________

|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|

| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On Mar 8, 2012, at 1:36 PM, <timboconnor@...<mailto:timboconnor@...>>
<timboconnor@...<mailto:timboconnor@...>> wrote:
I think by the 1930's crude oil was being moved mostly by pipelines, barges or coastal
ships, which is why there was a glut of plain 103 tank cars available at the start of
World War II to replace the loss of coastal shipping until new pipelines could be built.

Tim O'


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Betz" <jimbetz@...<mailto:jimbetz@...>>
To: STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 11:21:53 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks

Hi,

Way back when - say in the 30's or so - the majority of the
petroleum products being shipped long distances used tank cars.
Today it appears that the majority of petroleum products are
piped or moved (usually short distances) in trucks.
I'm interested in learning about the 'evolution' of the use
of tank cars in the STMFC era. Can someone recommend a good
book or website that focuses on the shipping methods for
petroleum products?
- Jim







------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Lehigh Valley boxcar colors

vincent altiere
 

To the group,

I have Branchline 40 ft. boxcar kit #1606 painted for Lehigh Valley #63025 (new 1950).The sides and ends are bc/frt.car red.However the roof and roofwalk are in the original black plastic. Can anyone tell me if this is correct(needing only a flat finish)?? Or should these pieces be painted the same color as the rest of the car? If so, what brand/shade of paint would you ecommend?

Vince Altiere


Re: Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks

Steve SANDIFER
 

In the southern Kansas area I am modeling, records show a lot of loads of
pipe being brought in during the late 40s to build pipelines (a source of
house track revenue). Nearly every town had at least one bulk oil dealer,
and some as many as 5 during the same period of time, all rail served.



______________________________________________

J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer

mailto:steve.sandifer@...

Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918

Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
timboconnor@...
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 1:36 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks






Actually the total ton-miles produced by pipelines in the US is about the
same as
total railroad ton-miles... But pipelines are NOT included in the totals
when railroads
count "market share" -- if they were, railroad market share would be cut in
half.

I think by the 1930's crude oil was being moved mostly by pipelines, barges
or coastal
ships, which is why there was a glut of plain 103 tank cars available at the
start of
World War II to replace the loss of coastal shipping until new pipelines
could be built.

Tim O'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Betz" <jimbetz@... <mailto:jimbetz%40jimbetz.com> >
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 11:21:53 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks

Hi,

Way back when - say in the 30's or so - the majority of the
petroleum products being shipped long distances used tank cars.
Today it appears that the majority of petroleum products are
piped or moved (usually short distances) in trucks.
I'm interested in learning about the 'evolution' of the use
of tank cars in the STMFC era. Can someone recommend a good
book or website that focuses on the shipping methods for
petroleum products?
- Jim


Re: Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks

Tim O'Connor
 

Actually the total ton-miles produced by pipelines in the US is about the same as
total railroad ton-miles... But pipelines are NOT included in the totals when railroads
count "market share" -- if they were, railroad market share would be cut in half.

I think by the 1930's crude oil was being moved mostly by pipelines, barges or coastal
ships, which is why there was a glut of plain 103 tank cars available at the start of
World War II to replace the loss of coastal shipping until new pipelines could be built.

Tim O'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Betz" <jimbetz@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 11:21:53 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks

Hi,

Way back when - say in the 30's or so - the majority of the
petroleum products being shipped long distances used tank cars.
Today it appears that the majority of petroleum products are
piped or moved (usually short distances) in trucks.
I'm interested in learning about the 'evolution' of the use
of tank cars in the STMFC era. Can someone recommend a good
book or website that focuses on the shipping methods for
petroleum products?
- Jim


B&O Wagon Top Covered Hopper Trucks

nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
 

Which trucks would be correct for B&O Wagon Top Hopper in the late 40's? I have getting ready to start and F&C kit, and want to get the trucks before I start.

Thanks,
Kent in KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com


Re: Self-Adhering Masking Material that can be Laser Cut

John H <sprinthag@...>
 

yes, they use knife type cutters. I sure wouldn't want be around anywhere someone was trying to cut (melt) vinyl with a laser.

John Hagen

--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

Note that vinyl is specifically NOT recommended for most LASER cutters, due to the corrosive nature of the fumes produced. Apparently, vinyl cutters use a different kind of machinery (knives??)

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of jerryglow@...
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 9:36 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Self-Adhering Masking Material that can be Laser Cut



Vinyl. As a custom painter in SoCal, I had lots of orders for SP bloody nose units and got tired of hand cutting masks. I drew it and had a friend with a vinyl cutter make me a bunch. I also made some to paint signs on brick buildings.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Welch <fgexbill@> wrote:

As those of you that were at the "Boutique Marketing of Kits & Parts"
discussion at Cocoa Beach may remember, I am slowly putting together
components to create a little kit to make it easy to model one of the
10K Semet Solvay Type 27 tank cars using the InterMountain kit. The
cars had a silver dome. In addition to a resin deck, photoetched
railings/corner posts/support brackets and decals, I would really
like to include a Laser Cut painting mask to make it easy to paint
the riveted dome collar that is part of the tank body. There is a
photo of the prototype of Volume 3 of the RR Prototype CYC.

The Czech Republic company "Eduard" includes an extensive line of
Laser Cut self-adhering painting masks for military vehicles and
aircraft, so I know this can be done. Does anyone on this list have
any information on who makes a raw material that could be used to
create such masks.

Please no questions about the "when?" and "how much?" of the
aforementioned kit. When I know, you will know.

Thank you!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Self-Adhering Masking Material that can be Laser Cut

Aley, Jeff A
 

Note that vinyl is specifically NOT recommended for most LASER cutters, due to the corrosive nature of the fumes produced. Apparently, vinyl cutters use a different kind of machinery (knives??)

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of jerryglow@...
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 9:36 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Self-Adhering Masking Material that can be Laser Cut



Vinyl. As a custom painter in SoCal, I had lots of orders for SP bloody nose units and got tired of hand cutting masks. I drew it and had a friend with a vinyl cutter make me a bunch. I also made some to paint signs on brick buildings.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

As those of you that were at the "Boutique Marketing of Kits & Parts"
discussion at Cocoa Beach may remember, I am slowly putting together
components to create a little kit to make it easy to model one of the
10K Semet Solvay Type 27 tank cars using the InterMountain kit. The
cars had a silver dome. In addition to a resin deck, photoetched
railings/corner posts/support brackets and decals, I would really
like to include a Laser Cut painting mask to make it easy to paint
the riveted dome collar that is part of the tank body. There is a
photo of the prototype of Volume 3 of the RR Prototype CYC.

The Czech Republic company "Eduard" includes an extensive line of
Laser Cut self-adhering painting masks for military vehicles and
aircraft, so I know this can be done. Does anyone on this list have
any information on who makes a raw material that could be used to
create such masks.

Please no questions about the "when?" and "how much?" of the
aforementioned kit. When I know, you will know.

Thank you!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@...





Re: Self-Adhering Masking Material that can be Laser Cut

jerryglow2
 

Vinyl. As a custom painter in SoCal, I had lots of orders for SP bloody nose units and got tired of hand cutting masks. I drew it and had a friend with a vinyl cutter make me a bunch. I also made some to paint signs on brick buildings.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

As those of you that were at the "Boutique Marketing of Kits & Parts"
discussion at Cocoa Beach may remember, I am slowly putting together
components to create a little kit to make it easy to model one of the
10K Semet Solvay Type 27 tank cars using the InterMountain kit. The
cars had a silver dome. In addition to a resin deck, photoetched
railings/corner posts/support brackets and decals, I would really
like to include a Laser Cut painting mask to make it easy to paint
the riveted dome collar that is part of the tank body. There is a
photo of the prototype of Volume 3 of the RR Prototype CYC.

The Czech Republic company "Eduard" includes an extensive line of
Laser Cut self-adhering painting masks for military vehicles and
aircraft, so I know this can be done. Does anyone on this list have
any information on who makes a raw material that could be used to
create such masks.

Please no questions about the "when?" and "how much?" of the
aforementioned kit. When I know, you will know.

Thank you!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Insulated Plug-Door Box Cars Build Date?

tom houle <thoule@...>
 

I need help with an O scale Atlas/Roco insulated plug-door box car from the 1970's. The car side lettering says it was built in 1937.

Would this car be correct for mid-1950's period?

What midwestern roads used this car?

Thanks,
Tom Houle


Tank cars -vs- Pipelines & Trucks

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

Way back when - say in the 30's or so - the majority of the
petroleum products being shipped long distances used tank cars.
Today it appears that the majority of petroleum products are
piped or moved (usually short distances) in trucks.
I'm interested in learning about the 'evolution' of the use
of tank cars in the STMFC era. Can someone recommend a good
book or website that focuses on the shipping methods for
petroleum products?
- Jim


Self-Adhering Masking Material that can be Laser Cut

Bill Welch
 

As those of you that were at the "Boutique Marketing of Kits & Parts"
discussion at Cocoa Beach may remember, I am slowly putting together
components to create a little kit to make it easy to model one of the
10K Semet Solvay Type 27 tank cars using the InterMountain kit. The
cars had a silver dome. In addition to a resin deck, photoetched
railings/corner posts/support brackets and decals, I would really
like to include a Laser Cut painting mask to make it easy to paint
the riveted dome collar that is part of the tank body. There is a
photo of the prototype of Volume 3 of the RR Prototype CYC.

The Czech Republic company "Eduard" includes an extensive line of
Laser Cut self-adhering painting masks for military vehicles and
aircraft, so I know this can be done. Does anyone on this list have
any information on who makes a raw material that could be used to
create such masks.

Please no questions about the "when?" and "how much?" of the
aforementioned kit. When I know, you will know.

Thank you!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@...


Re: An early URTC ART Connection? and more

Bill Welch
 

Don't give up Jerry. Through the years both Fruit Growers and Western Fruit Annual Reports contained 3-5 pages of very interesting news and statistics and after about 1948 included photos. The last pages were reserved for the financial info. Still hoping to find BRE's Annual Reports.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., asychis@... wrote:

Hi Tony,

I agree that most of these annual reports are mainly financial
transactions. That does give clues sometimes. I was thinking that if ART bought
control of URTCo or leased cars, the financial data for that might be listed,
which would confirm dates. Sometimes quantity of cars are also noted.
Anyway, if you do get a chance to look at the UC holdings, it would be
appreciated. I'll do some searching for Stanford. Thanks.

Jerry Michels


There are very extensive annual report collections at many
business schools. I have been most impressed with Stanford's
collection; UC Berkeley has a good amount also. Word of warning: in
the early twentieth century or thereabouts, most annual reports were a
couple of pages, entirely with financial results, no additional
information about ownership, traffic, etc. You are happy when you find
an exception (among which are UP and SP annual reports in the Harriman
era).
I would be happy to walk over to UC and check if they have ART
reports. I think the Stanford holdings can be checked on line.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]