Date   

Re: USNX 1001-1002

Ed Hawkins
 

On Jul 10, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Ed, he asked about 1001 and 1002, not 102. The 1000-series USNX
cars were AAR class TMU helium cars, not conventional tank cars. And
they were all one color, though I'm not sure whether it was gray or
aluminum. Seeing those cars in later years as I did, they sure looked
gray, but that may just have been dirty and weathered aluminum paint.
Tony,
Thanks, and I should pay more attention to what I'm doing on Sunday
mornings! My "duh." Let's try this again, and perhaps the following
information will help Rick in a way that my first reply obviously did
not.

Jay Miller compiled data about helium tank cars and assembled a
loose-leaf portfolio and Powerpoint presentation (published June 2007)
on helium cars built from 1926 to 1962. USNX 1001 was a 3-tube car
built by Bethlehem Steel Co. in 1926. The photo of USNX 1001 in Jay's
article shows the tubes could possibly be either gray or aluminum (hard
to tell for sure), but the underframe is a dark color, probably black,
with white stencils on the center sill.

Jay's portfolio shows USNX 1002-1006 were 28-tube cars built by General
American in Sept.-Oct. 1930, and a builder's photo of USNX 1004 built
9-30 is included. The photo shows a car likely painted gray as there is
no evidence of any sheen that's typically seen on a car painted
aluminum.

The portfolio has a USNX helium car painting diagram for USNX
1013-1078, 30-tube cars built by GATC in 1942-1943, which specifies
from 1942-1955 the cars received battleship gray paint with black
trucks, underframes, end sills, couplers, safety appliances, ladders,
door hardware, placard holders, brake wheels, and lettering.

It's apparent that Jay could not find conclusive painting data on the
USNX 1001 and 1002 cars when built in 1926 and 1930, respectively.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Athrean kitbash

Clark Propst
 

I added another photo to my 'GN BOX CAR' file. This one shows the problems using the Accurail underframe.

If you remember I cut a piece out of it to match the bolsters on the Sunshine model. Then put the cut out piece back in because the underframe was too short.

Now I'll try using the Athearn underframe.

This is one of those "I need to build one to sell to see how to build one to keep!"
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: USNX 1001-1002

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ed Hawkins wrote:

From the ACF bill of materials I have compiled paint specs for ACF lot 2029, USN T102 . . .
Ed, he asked about 1001 and 1002, not 102. The 1000-series USNX cars were AAR class TMU helium cars, not conventional tank cars. And they were all one color, though I'm not sure whether it was gray or aluminum. Seeing those cars in later years as I did, they sure looked gray, but that may just have been dirty and weathered aluminum paint.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: DSS&A

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., jerryglow@... wrote:

What's the difference between use of the abbreviated "South Shore" logo compared to the full one? I have pics of 170xx cars with the abbreviated one and lager one with a 1957 reweigh date and large "speed" DSSandA on the right instead of the Gateway slogan.

Jerry Glow

Oh boy, I get to tell a story! :)

It is said that when Leonard Murray became VP of the South Shore in 1952 (he was an attorney brought on board by then president Mitchell), he became aware that there was another railroad at the south end of Lake Michigan that was calling itself the "South Shore", so he had a cease and desist letter crafted and sent. There is no report that he ever received a reply. However, the fact that nowhere did the full name Duluth South Shore and Atlantic appear on the equipment offended his legal sensibilities, and so he proposed the remedy in the form of the new herald with the entire name spelled out.

Murray became the president of the DSS&A upon Mitchell's death in 1958, and president of the newly merged company in 1961.

Dennis


Re: DAS box Car

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

RP CYC 16, p 26, shows DSA 16036, a USRA DS box, reweighed MARQ 1-39. All other photos I've seen of DSS&A freight cars (15-20) show "DSS&A" reporting marks. The shot of 16036 is the only one I've seen of the 16000 series.

Gaertner's DSS&A book, p 238, shows DSS&A 18002, reweighed MARQ 8-40. It would appear that stencilling practice either changed in that time window, or wasn't (yet?) standardized.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.
I don't have a copy of RP Cyc 16 handy, so can't look at the picture, but keep in mind that the 16000 series USRA cars were purchased second hand sometime in the late thirties, and the DSA mark could have been applied by the used equipment dealer for shipment.

Dennis


Re: DSS&A/DSA (was DAS box Car)

Tim O'Connor
 

This is the 1924 DSS&A flat car builder photo that I mentioned:

http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/365/26801/january-1997-page-55

Tim O'Connor


Re: DSS&A/DSA (was DAS box Car)

Tim O'Connor
 

Al thanks for that reference. Now we know there is at
least one car that was marked DSA. How'd we get from
DAS to DSA anyway? :-)

I have two scans of these ex-Pere Marquette cars, both
are lettered DSS&A -- 16001, 16032. I have only one scan
of one of the ex-NYC double sheathed box cars represented
by the Des Plaines Valley kit -- 18037, in yellow paint,
for online merchandise (LCL) service. It is marked DSS&A.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------------

RP CYC 16, p 26, shows DSA 16036, a USRA DS box, reweighed MARQ 1-39. All other photos I've seen of DSS&A freight cars (15-20) show "DSS&A" reporting marks. The shot of 16036 is the only one I've seen of the 16000 series.
Gaertner's DSS&A book, p 238, shows DSS&A 18002, reweighed MARQ 8-40. It would appear that stencilling practice either changed in that time window, or wasn't (yet?) standardized.
Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: DAS box Car

al_brown03
 

RP CYC 16, p 26, shows DSA 16036, a USRA DS box, reweighed MARQ 1-39. All other photos I've seen of DSS&A freight cars (15-20) show "DSS&A" reporting marks. The shot of 16036 is the only one I've seen of the 16000 series.

Gaertner's DSS&A book, p 238, shows DSS&A 18002, reweighed MARQ 8-40. It would appear that stencilling practice either changed in that time window, or wasn't (yet?) standardized.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Rich, have you found a single photo of a freight car marked DSA?
Web sites are not that useful if they simply regurgitate what is
found in the ORER -- photos are the best reference.

As Dennis pointed out, the Canadian Pacific is wrapped up in the
history of Soo Line and DSS&A (and Jim Hill of the GN too, if you
dig into the history). Corporate identity is one thing not always
directly reflected on the rolling stock.

Tim O'Connor




Duluth South Shore & Atlantic reporting marks changed over time. According to the NRHS web site

DS&A July 1923
DSS&A April 1938
DSA Jan 1952 - April 1961 and Oct 1966 Assigned to SOO Line between 1961 and 1966 and post 1966

Rich Orr


Re: DSS&A

jerryglow2
 

What's the difference between use of the abbreviated "South Shore" logo compared to the full one? I have pics of 170xx cars with the abbreviated one and lager one with a 1957 reweigh date and large "speed" DSSandA on the right instead of the Gateway slogan.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@> wrote:


Although DSA was registered as a reporting mark for the DSS&A, the
only reporting mark I've ever seen used for the railroad is DSS&A,
which is also listed in the 1940 and later ORER's. (I don't have an
earlier ORER.)

In the 1950 ORER it says:

FREIGHT EQUIPMENT - Reporting Marks - DSA
The Freight Cars of this Company are marked "D., S. S. & A." ...
Both Tim and Larry Kline have it right... while the AAR changed various reporting marks over the years, there was no requirement to actually use the mark on the cars until well after the period covered by this list.

I don't happen to have a photo of a DSS&A car that I can upload, but someone linked to a photo of a Kadee PS-1 a couple days ago:

http://www.kadee.com/ca/50ps1/jpg/6727l.jpg

This is an accurate rendition of the last lettering scheme used by the South Shore, created for the 50' PS-1's delivered in 1957. The reporting marks were not changed until after the 1961 consolidation of the CP subsidiaries into the Soo Line Railroad Company, and at that time the cars were re-marked SOO LINE. It wasn't until far in the future, in the late seventies or early eighties, when the Soo finally agreed to use only the AAR mark, SOO on it's cars.

One other comment about reporting marks. While the AAR maintained the list of marks used in commercial service, the FRA (and I suppose the ICC before it) would issue marks to be used to identify equipment for a one time move. The Illinois Railway Museum has moved several pieces of equipment under the IRYM mark, but you will not find it listed in the ORER. From what we were told about the ownership of the equipment marked DAS, I'm sure the situation was similar.

Dennis


Re: DSS&A

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Although DSA was registered as a reporting mark for the DSS&A, the
only reporting mark I've ever seen used for the railroad is DSS&A,
which is also listed in the 1940 and later ORER's. (I don't have an
earlier ORER.)

In the 1950 ORER it says:

FREIGHT EQUIPMENT - Reporting Marks - DSA
The Freight Cars of this Company are marked "D., S. S. & A." ...
Both Tim and Larry Kline have it right... while the AAR changed various reporting marks over the years, there was no requirement to actually use the mark on the cars until well after the period covered by this list.

I don't happen to have a photo of a DSS&A car that I can upload, but someone linked to a photo of a Kadee PS-1 a couple days ago:

http://www.kadee.com/ca/50ps1/jpg/6727l.jpg

This is an accurate rendition of the last lettering scheme used by the South Shore, created for the 50' PS-1's delivered in 1957. The reporting marks were not changed until after the 1961 consolidation of the CP subsidiaries into the Soo Line Railroad Company, and at that time the cars were re-marked SOO LINE. It wasn't until far in the future, in the late seventies or early eighties, when the Soo finally agreed to use only the AAR mark, SOO on it's cars.

One other comment about reporting marks. While the AAR maintained the list of marks used in commercial service, the FRA (and I suppose the ICC before it) would issue marks to be used to identify equipment for a one time move. The Illinois Railway Museum has moved several pieces of equipment under the IRYM mark, but you will not find it listed in the ORER. From what we were told about the ownership of the equipment marked DAS, I'm sure the situation was similar.

Dennis


Re: USNX 1001-1002

Tim O'Connor
 

Rick, are you able to share those photos? Are these standard Type 27
tank cars?

Tim O'Connor

Rick,

From the ACF bill of materials I have compiled paint specs for ACF lot
2029, USN T102, 10,000-gallon ICC 103, built 5-40. The top and heads of
the tank were aluminum. The bottom of the tank, underframe, trucks,
lettering over aluminum were black. Lettering over black was white.
Another order for USN T103, lot 2143, was identical to lot 2029.

Incidentally, the running boards on these cars were Alan Wood Super Diamond Plate.

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: ex-AT&SF box car pictures

Tim O'Connor
 

Tim the car is in Morrisville.
Randy, right, Morrisville. Well, I did say it was 20 years ago... :-)


This appears to be the Fe-13 in St Johnsbury VT, no? I took a bunch of
shots of the car around 20 years ago when the lettering was much more
legible. I don't know if the car ever belonged to LV (I never saw any
evidence of that) but it's definitely ex-DT&I, before it passed on to
StJ&LC ownership.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/album/91398491/pic/808224976/view

Tim O'Connor


Re: DAS box Car

Tim O'Connor
 

Rich, have you found a single photo of a freight car marked DSA?
Web sites are not that useful if they simply regurgitate what is
found in the ORER -- photos are the best reference.

As Dennis pointed out, the Canadian Pacific is wrapped up in the
history of Soo Line and DSS&A (and Jim Hill of the GN too, if you
dig into the history). Corporate identity is one thing not always
directly reflected on the rolling stock.

Tim O'Connor

Duluth South Shore & Atlantic reporting marks changed over time. According to the NRHS web site

DS&A July 1923
DSS&A April 1938
DSA Jan 1952 - April 1961 and Oct 1966 Assigned to SOO Line between 1961 and 1966 and post 1966

Rich Orr


Re: DSS&A

Tim O'Connor
 

Although DSA was registered as a reporting mark for the DSS&A, the
only reporting mark I've ever seen used for the railroad is DSS&A,
which is also listed in the 1940 and later ORER's. (I don't have an
earlier ORER.)

In the 1950 ORER it says:

FREIGHT EQUIPMENT - Reporting Marks - DSA
The Freight Cars of this Company are marked "D., S. S. & A." ...

There's a 1924 builder photo of DSS&A 13398, which was a USRA steel
flat car (like the Red Caboose model). So the use of the DSS&A marks
goes back at least that far.

Tim O'Connor


Re: DAS box Car

SUVCWORR@...
 

Jerry,

This is one of those depends times.

Duluth South Shore & Atlantic reporting marks changed over time. According to the NRHS web site

DS&A July 1923
DSS&A April 1938
DSA Jan 1952 - April 1961 and Oct 1966 Assigned to SOO Line between 1961 and 1966 and post 1966

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: jerryglow <jerryglow@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 6:46 am
Subject: Fwd: [STMFC] Re: DAS box Car


This thread gave me a bit of a concern as I do a couple decal sets for them
including a riveted side PS-1. The pictures I worked from and my sets use DSS&A.
I wonder if it has changed over the years as my area of interest was transition
era.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., <tmolsen@...> wrote:

Pete Silcox is correct is stating that the Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic's
reporting marks are "DSA". This is confirmed by the Official Railroad Equipment
Registers that I have going back 70 years.

Examination of the registers that I have do not list a reporting mark "DAS"
for any railroad or private operator.

Thomas M. Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...








------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: ex-AT&SF box car pictures

randy arnold
 

Tim the car is in Morrisville. I first noticed it 8-9 years ago, the last
time I went to look at it the truck on the A end had been removed and that
end was sitting on a large concrete block.

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>wrote:

**


This appears to be the Fe-13 in St Johnsbury VT, no? I took a bunch of
shots of the car around 20 years ago when the lettering was much more
legible. I don't know if the car ever belonged to LV (I never saw any
evidence of that) but it's definitely ex-DT&I, before it passed on to
StJ&LC ownership.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/album/91398491/pic/808224976/view

Tim O'Connor




--
Best Regards
Randy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: DAS box Car

Steve Haas
 

<<I looked in my 4-51 ORER. It does say that the Duluth, South Shore &
Atlantic's reporting marks are "DSA" However, the next line says: "The
freight cars of this company are marked DSS&A." The 7-47 and 1-59 ORERs say
the same thing.>>


As do the 10-49 and 4-57 ORERs, along with my memories of going down the
freight yard in Houghton to watch trains in the early - mid 60's.

Use those DSS&A reporting marks on your models without worry.


Steve Haas
Snoqualmie, WA


Re: DAS box Car

SUVCWORR@...
 

Its Duluth South Shore and Atlantic and the reporting marks as DSA see ORER and NRHS web site

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob McCarthy <thesupplycar@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 7:50 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: DAS box Car


Howdy,

DAS is the DULUTH, ATLANTIC and SOUTH SHORE RR.

Bob McCarthy

Modeling the Mighty Central of Georgia in Scale S


--- On Fri, 7/8/11, peter silcox <railroadpete@...> wrote:

From: peter silcox <railroadpete@...>
Subject: DAS box Car
To: "Bob McCarthy" <thesupplycar@...>, gsc3@...
Date: Friday, July 8, 2011, 2:46 PM



















The Eqpt. Register of 1950 said the “DSA” was
the Duluth ,
South Shore & Atlantic RR. Pete Silcox







Any thoughts on what the car in question is?



Bob



--- On Wed, 7/6/11, George <gsc3@...> wrote:



From: George <gsc3@...>

Subject: [STMFC] Re: single sheathed box car

To: STMFC@...

Date: Wednesday, July 6, 2011, 1:36 AM





No, but until somebody is sure,
Durham and Southern seems
a possiblity.



George Courtney



--- In STMFC@..., Tim
O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Anyone recognize the provenance of this box car? Do you know
what "DAS" stands for?






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: USNX 1001-1002

Ed Hawkins
 

On Jul 10, 2011, at 5:24 AM, rdietrichson wrote:

Good morning all,
I have several black and white photos of the subject cars, but cannot
tell the color of the cars. Were these cars painted a light Navy Gray
or were they silver?
Any help would be appreciated.
Rick Dietrichson
Wilmington, NC
Rick,
From the ACF bill of materials I have compiled paint specs for ACF lot
2029, USN T102, 10,000-gallon ICC 103, built 5-40. The top and heads of
the tank were aluminum. The bottom of the tank, underframe, trucks,
lettering over aluminum were black. Lettering over black was white.
Another order for USN T103, lot 2143, was identical to lot 2029.
Incidentally, the running boards on these cars were Alan Wood Super
Diamond Plate.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: DAS box Car

Larry Kline
 

This thread also gave me a bit of a concern because I have an O scale Champ decal set I plan to use because a DSS&A box car appears in the Bill Pice WM video. The reporting marks in the Champ set are DSS&A, not DSA.

I looked in my 4-51 ORER. It does say that the Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic's reporting marks are "DSA" However, the next line says: "The freight cars of this company are marked DSS&A." The 7-47 and 1-59 ORERs say the same thing.

The 1-43 ORER says "The freight cars of this company are marked DSA or DSS&A."

The 6-29 and 4-38 ORERs give the reporting marks as DSS&A.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

Jerry Glow said:
This thread gave me a bit of a concern as I do a couple decal sets for them including a riveted side PS-1. The pictures I worked from and my sets use DSS&A. I wonder if it has changed over the years as my area of interest was transition era.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., <tmolsen@...> wrote:

Pete Silcox is correct is stating that the Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic's reporting marks are "DSA". This is confirmed by the Official Railroad Equipment Registers that I have going back 70 years.

Examination of the registers that I have do not list a reporting mark "DAS" for any railroad or private operator.

Thomas M. Olsen

94241 - 94260 of 195580