Date   

Re: WMRX insulated box cars

mopacfirst
 

I see. There's another shot of WMRX 9 on the Canada Southern website which shows the side a bit better. You can tell there's virtually nothing below the bottom of the side except the three steps and a fairly minimal door track. I can only assume they did this, rather than use the brackets attached to the outside of the original frame (a la rebuilt boxcars) to support the sides, in order to have room for the insulation. So at the bottom of the side, that must be a structural member that was applied directly to the outside of the original sidesill. This had the added benefit of bringing the new sides out far enough that a normal end pressing was wide enough to fit without all those funny angles that would usually be used to adapt an early thirties' frame width.

Unless those 1931 cars were unusually wide for their day, before the 1932 car dimensions were agreed on.

Just presumptions on my part - I'm curious about the structural details.

Ron Merrick


--- In STMFC@..., ROGER HINMAN <rhinman11@...> wrote:

The cars were built as steel frame cars in 1931 with wood siding and ends; in the rebuild process new steel side panels were added as well as new ends, roofs and doors. The WMRX cars were a small piece of this rebuilding program that had close to 500 cars done. The spotting feature that differentiates them from new build cars of the period is the steel side sheathing is attached to the original full length side sill versus the contemporary practice of triangular tabs

Roger Hinman
On Mar 18, 2011, at 2:50 PM, mopacfirst wrote:
<snip>. But what, pray tell, was built in 1931 that these cars could have been built out of? I'll buy the idea that MDT provided these cars, but physically rebuilt to look like that, and be the same dimensions as a new-built fifties house car? I'd love to hear more.

Ron Merrick

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@> wrote:


Thanks Ned. Although built originally in 1931, <snip>>
Tim O'Connor


The WM freight car book by Ortley and McFall has a drawing that says:
ROOF
Make (S.R.E.Mfg.Co. Type)

I have no roof shots but from what I do have it doesn't look as if there are any raised portions between the roof ribs. These were leased cars from MDT, built Sept/Oct 1931, lease to WM in 1956. They were numbered 1-15

Ned Carey


Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Bob, no doubt many packing plants were close by stock yards. But as I said,
the MAJOR stock yards like Denver, Omaha et al were vast, far too vast for
the local packers to absorb. They were primarily "stock markets" (hence, the
term) for livestock redistribution.

Tim O'Connor

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify my statement. By "final destination" I did mean the stock yard where the cattle were sold by the rancher. The stockyard I am most familiar with in West Fargo, ND was immediately adjacent to an Armour packing plant, so the livestock did not require rail transport to their literal final destination. I believe many packing plants were similarly situated, were they not?

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger


Re: NYCSHS and model railroad hobby

Jason C
 

I'm far younger than most NYC fans; just 37.  I don't even remember Penn Central.  The only way I have to experience the NYC is through books, videos, or models.  I have only recently joined the NYCSHS and have enjoyed the couple issues of the Headlight that I have received. 
 
 
Long term though, I feel that the PRRH&TS is years ahead of the NYCSHS in recognizing that modeling is going to be the main way to preserve and share the legacy of their railroad with others.  I do hope the NYCSHS comes around to this view.  I also hope that a good quality model of an L2a comes available in HO scale in the next couple of years.  Hope the society can work with a manufacturer that is interested.
 
 
Best regards,
Jason Cook

--- On Tue, 3/22/11, Patrick Wilkinson <glgpat@...> wrote:






Tim,

I know what Hugh meant and he is right to a large extent. I was born in 1953
and while I remember the NYC from numerous trips by the yard in Elkhart and
all the trains in South Bend I have more memories of the L&N in Kentucky
where I lived for 5 years and of the Santa Fe since I have lived in Texas
for 30 years.

None of us your age or mine ever had a chance to work for the NYC or have
any meaningful involvement with it, we are just too young.

Pat Wilkinson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NYCSHS and model railroad hobby

Patrick Wilkinson <glgpat@...>
 

Tim,



I know what Hugh meant and he is right to a large extent. I was born in 1953
and while I remember the NYC from numerous trips by the yard in Elkhart and
all the trains in South Bend I have more memories of the L&N in Kentucky
where I lived for 5 years and of the Santa Fe since I have lived in Texas
for 30 years.



None of us your age or mine ever had a chance to work for the NYC or have
any meaningful involvement with it, we are just too young.



Pat Wilkinson


Re: Tennessee Central-Rebuilt USRA 3-Bay Hoppers.

Bill Welch
 

I will chime in with information that Rich shared with me about these cars over the weekend. The cars in question were USRA 3-bay hoppers built for the Virginian (Who Knew?) who sold them to Ortner rather than rebuild them when the time came. So the cars in question are rebuilt USRA 3-Bay hoppers owned second hand by the TC, and probably unknown to most of us. Let the detective work begin.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., "Richard Yoder" <oscale48@...> wrote:

Thank you Mitch.
I would like to hear from him.
I'm sure there are photos somewhere of the car as purchased from Ortner.
Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Mitchell Mercante
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 6:50 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tennessee Central

Rich,
 
Steve Johnson is probably your best bet.  He monitors this list and may
respond directly to you.  He's involved with the Tennessee Central Museum.
 
Regards,
 
Mitch Mercante

--- On Sun, 3/20/11, Richard Yoder <oscale48@...> wrote:


From: Richard Yoder <oscale48@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Tennessee Central
To: STMFC@...
Date: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 4:57 PM


I'm looking for someone that may have photos from the Tennessee Central
railroad.
If you know of someone please contact me.
Sincerely, Rich Yoder



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Re: F30a flat car, on a flat car (was Boxcar sides loaded for shipping ) (UNCLASSIFIED)

Bruce Smith
 

On Mar 22, 2011, at 7:00 AM, Gatwood, Elden SAW wrote:
BTW, the Bowser kit will just not look right upside down, but would
sure be a
cheaper alternative.
Remember that Stan R has laser cut Bowser F30a underframes that have
the oval holes. You would, of course, still need to remove the floors.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Re: F30a flat car, on a flat car (was Boxcar sides loaded for shipping ) (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Tim;

Good call. They actually shipped them in two's, on top of one another, the
bottom being upright and the top one being upside down. There was a nice
wooden cradle under the bottom one. PRR tacked on the stirrups and brake
eqpt once they got to Altoona.

They got later orders, of F41B (1959), already painted, and stacked the same
way, but on top of F30A's, with idlers between loaded cars, since the F41B
was longer.

The photo I have shows eight frames in one train.

After the initial orders of F30A in 1934, the F30D was done in 1951, so one
could do that car from an F30A, but for 1951 shipment. The little
differences are the lack of the stake pocket "lip", and a simpler brake
arrangement.

BTW, the Bowser kit will just not look right upside down, but would sure be a
cheaper alternative.

Funny no one asks these questions before they come out with a kit.

Cool all the same. I hope Martin reissues the F30A. That was a beautiful
kit.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 5:29 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] RE: F30a flat car, on a flat car (was Boxcar sides loaded
for shipping )



Elden

Were they really shipped that way? Seems like it would be more economically
to ship 2 or 3 of the cast frames at a time, in a gondola, standing on their
sides. Or perhaps stacked two or three on a flat car.

Tim O'Connor

I also have to add that the beautiful flat car load appears to be a PRR
F30A.
Based on photos I have, the F30A frames did not arrive at the PRR shops
in red paint, but what looks like grey primer. Thought you might like
to know,

Elden Gatwood




Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Sergent couplers

John Degnan <Scaler164@...>
 

Thanks Tim. I would patent it... but I actually got this idea from the early P2K E-units; the pivoting bracket that the couplers mount to on both ends of them is centered in this same way. In fact, the (slightly modified) phosphor-bronze strip I used in my gearbox actually came out of a P2K E-unit.

<G>


John Degnan
Scaler164@...


Re: WMRX insulated box cars

ROGER HINMAN
 

I've assumed they used the Despatch panel roofs but I don't have a good shot to confirm


Roger Hinman
On Mar 17, 2011, at 3:17 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


Anyone here know what type of roof these cars had? The ends look
like Despatch. I know this photo is from 1962, but the cars were built
in the 1950's.

http://cgi.ebay.com/WESTERN-MARYLAND-WM-40FT-REEFER-WMRX-12-DUPLICATE-SLIDE-/150576680794

Thanks
Tim O'Connor



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: WMRX insulated box cars

ROGER HINMAN
 

The cars were built as steel frame cars in 1931 with wood siding and ends; in the rebuild process new steel side panels were added as well as new ends, roofs and doors. The WMRX cars were a small piece of this rebuilding program that had close to 500 cars done. The spotting feature that differentiates them from new build cars of the period is the steel side sheathing is attached to the original full length side sill versus the contemporary practice of triangular tabs

Roger Hinman
On Mar 18, 2011, at 2:50 PM, mopacfirst wrote:

There are some things I read that I have great trouble believing.

It's probably not my concern, since it's unlikely that one of these cars ever came down my branch and it's another order of magnitude unlikely that I would ever build a model of one. But what, pray tell, was built in 1931 that these cars could have been built out of? I'll buy the idea that MDT provided these cars, but physically rebuilt to look like that, and be the same dimensions as a new-built fifties house car? I'd love to hear more.

Ron Merrick

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Thanks Ned. Although built originally in 1931, <snip>>
Tim O'Connor


The WM freight car book by Ortley and McFall has a drawing that says:
ROOF
Make (S.R.E.Mfg.Co. Type)

I have no roof shots but from what I do have it doesn't look as if there are any raised portions between the roof ribs. These were leased cars from MDT, built Sept/Oct 1931, lease to WM in 1956. They were numbered 1-15

Ned Carey


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: IC "Chiselled Side" Offset Twins - Other Roads

Mark Mathu
 

KGBW 401-420 were built 6/1949, according to the builders photo I have.

I can post a link to an image once it gets approved by the group moderators.

--- In STMFC@..., Rich C <rhcdmc@...> wrote:

Here is a list outside of Illinois Central that had the "short taper/chisel side" twin offsets

...
KGBW 401-420, 8 panel, blt 1948


Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars

Douglas Harding
 

Tim, I think Bob meant to say "where the livestock was sold/changed
ownership". Western roads often shipped livestock to major stockyard towns
like Omaha and Chicago, where the slaughter houses were directly connected
to the stockyards. Or this was where buyers for slaughter houses purchase
animals for shipment to distant slaughter houses. Once ownership changed,
drovers/wranglers who were in the employ of the original owner were free to
return home on the next passenger train. The new owners, ie the slaughter
house or feedlot owner was responsible for providing agents who looked after
the livestock. And yes these were people who knew how to handle livestock.
Many a farm boy got such a job in the big city because he knew his way
around livestock.



The movement of feeder calves was big business, esp for roads that served
the western grass lands where cow/calf operations were very common. IE a
range out west would bred and birth cattle, wean the calves, then sell them
to farmers and feed lot operators in the mid-west (read corn country). These
farmers and feed lots would feed the calves, that is fatten them for market.
When they reached market weight, they would be loaded and shipped to the
union stockyard of choice, or sold to a commission buyer who worked the
territory buying for the slaughter houses.



Sheep tended to moved directly from the grasslands to slaughter. Hogs tended
to be raised in the Midwest, next to the corn fields, and thus went directly
from farmer to slaughter. Though were was/is a market for feeder pigs, ie
one farmer births the pigs, then sells them to another who feeds them to
market weight.





Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


NP box car colors?

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

There is an interesting photo on pg 36 of the March issue of Railfan. It shows 2 NP box cars trailing engine 1545 in 1952. What makes the photo interesting is that the 2 NP box cars are painted with paint of different colors...a DS car much redder than what appears to be a steel box car. Photos in other books seem to verify the existence of two colors for NP box cars in the 50's. Does anyone have information on this? Ted Culotta refers to an NP frt car red color in his Essentials article on the 5000 class cars but photos seem to indicate at least two different shades of "red" for NP box/auto cars. I am preparing to paint a Speedwitch 5000 class SS auto car.

Thanks,
Mike Brock


Re: Placards for Liquefied Petroleum Gas

Tom Birkett <tnbirke@...>
 

The 1921 "All About Tank Cars" from Standard Tank Car Co. shows an ARA
stencilling diagram for an ARA Class III car with an "Inflammable Placard"
on the side. If it were a Class V car about 20 years later this would answer
the question, but it is probably nothing more than a start in research.
Tom


Subject: [STMFC] Placards for Liquefied Petroleum Gas




Which placard is correct for LPG or Propane in the late 1940s, "Compressed
Gas" or "Inflammable" (or another one that I can't even read)? I have the
Microscale decal set #87-975 with the "transition era freight car placards".

Thank you.

Lou WHiteley
Lawrenceville, NJ


Re: Sunshine instructions

Jim Hayes
 

I talked to Martin and Patricia Lofton about this and they prefer that I not
add instructions & PDFs for Sunshine kits to my site.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 7:26 PM, Dave Nelson <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:



Actually, thinking of the example, are these something that should be
available on the site that hosts the Sunshine Price list? It already has
flyers. Seems like instructions could fit right in there too.

Dave Nelson


--- In STMFC@..., Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:

Guys,
This is a great example of how this list fosters cooperation, but can you
take working the details off list? Not everyone cares about the nust snad
bolts of this.



Re: Sunshine instructions

Dave Nelson
 

Actually, thinking of the example, are these something that should be
available on the site that hosts the Sunshine Price list? It already has
flyers. Seems like instructions could fit right in there too.

Dave Nelson

--- In STMFC@..., Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:

Guys,
This is a great example of how this list fosters cooperation, but can you
take working the details off list?  Not everyone cares about the nust snad
bolts of this.


Re: OT cars & trucks

North Model Railroad Supplies <nmrs@...>
 

Jordan Highway Miniatures make a number of pre 50s motor car and truck kits.

Cheers

Dave North


Re: Tennessee Central

Rich Yoder
 

Thank you Mitch.
I would like to hear from him.
I'm sure there are photos somewhere of the car as purchased from Ortner.
Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Mitchell Mercante
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 6:50 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tennessee Central

Rich,
 
Steve Johnson is probably your best bet.  He monitors this list and may
respond directly to you.  He's involved with the Tennessee Central Museum.
 
Regards,
 
Mitch Mercante

--- On Sun, 3/20/11, Richard Yoder <oscale48@...> wrote:


From: Richard Yoder <oscale48@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Tennessee Central
To: STMFC@...
Date: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 4:57 PM


I'm looking for someone that may have photos from the Tennessee Central
railroad.
If you know of someone please contact me.
Sincerely, Rich Yoder



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Re: Pacemaker boxcar usage off-line of NYC - NYCSHS

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I sort of hate to get into this since copyright issues crop up on STMFC from
time to time and tend to get into long threads which don't really solve
anything.



BUT,



The NYCSHS can control access to a drawing all they want by requiring that
you pay a fee for reproduction. Not reproduction rights, but simply for
reproduction, getting a print made and mailed to you. IMHO, they then have
ZERO rights to tell you what you can do with that print, whether it's a
photo print, a drawing, an order, a letter, or any other sort of document.
They can ask that you credit the Society, which is easy enough to do and a
common civility, but if you want to use a drawing to make a master model,
which is then cast in resin, or make an injection molding die, so you can
crank out a thousand of some box car or whatever, they have no rights to
require any sort of profit split or anything else. UNLESS they have a
legitimate copyright in the document to begin with, meaning it was created
after a specific date and they received, specifically, the copyright when
they acquired the item. And even then, it's not so clear cut as all that.



I created drawings of the ERIE's 0-6-0s. (OK, a peculiar obsession of mine,
I admit) by getting drawings from at least four different historical
societies/archives/collections. There is a lot of work involved in doing
this. One literally becomes a "rivet counter." People asked me when I
found the time. My answer was between 10 PM and 2 AM for about two years.
The drawings were published in two issues of The Diamond, the ELHS magazine,
and carried the legend "Copyright Schuyler Larrabee (date)." I was advised
by competent legal counsel that the copyright only meant that someone
couldn't take those drawings and claim them as their own. It did NOT mean
that I had any rights to any models that might be created from the drawings.



Oh, sure, I might expect that a manufacturer might offer me a model or two
as appreciation for the work that I'd done and the assistance I would have
gladly offered during the development of the model. But they would not be
under any obligation to do so. It would only be through the good graces of
their hearts.



The agreement that NYCSHS would like you to sign is probably worthless and
an illegal, unenforceable contract.

SGL (NOT a lawyer, but good friends with several)



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Bruce Smith
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 2:16 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Pacemaker boxcar usage off-line of NYC - NYCSHS





Kurt,

I would remind you that if you do not control the copyright on
something, then the way to "control" it is by restricting access. Thus,
if the NYCHS decides that they wish to control access to a drawing that
they own, but for which they do not hold the copyright, they are well
within their rights to require that anyone aquiring copies from them
sign an agreement that requires the purchaser to do whatever NYCHS
dictates in order to gain access, including paying royalties on
subsequent models. The requirements detailed by Denis indicate that
someone or a group at the NYCSHS think that somehow the NYCSHS'
resources are a "cash cow" that should be milked.

OTOH, the PRRT&HS and the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee strive to assist
manufacturers to identify exactly those drawings that might be needed
for a given project and the PRRT&HS even offers a manufacturers
membership which provides discounted rates on access to drawings in the
society's collection. No royalty agreements are asked for and no
royalties are paid. Although the PRRT&HS does not request them, model
are sometimes provided by manufacturers to the PRRT&HS which then
raffles them at the annual meeting.

This is not a "red team" versus "green team" thing, as the PRRT&HS was
in the same situation as the NYCSHS 15-20 years ago, when modelers felt
decidedly unwelcome by the "powers that be". However, some members,
mostly younger modelers, stuck it out and gradually changed the focus of
the PRRT&HS to included modelers (in addition to employees and
historians) and the society is definitely the better for it. Hopefully
the NYCSHS can continue to make progress in a similar direction.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

"Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@... <mailto:fleeta%40verizon.net> >
03/19/11 9:17 PM >>>
It's more a matter of what "they" are missisng: an understanding of
intelectual property laws, particularly with regard to copyrights. Not
uncommon, unfortunately. In the military vehicle world there are
several
libraries claiming copyright to photographs that have the US Army Signal

Corps emblem in the corner!

(Government photographs are "born" in the public domain. It's not that
the
Government claims copyright and lets us use it free, it's that they are
not
protectable at all.)

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: pullmanboss

I work with the Newberry Library and am very familiar with their fee
structure and terms of use. I have redrawn a multitude of floor plan,
underneath equipment and side elevation drawings from Pullman originals
in
the Newberry files and am not in violation of the Newberry's terms of
use
when those (re)drawings show up in kit instructions. What am I missing
when
it comes to the NYCHS?

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Re: Southern Railway Box Car Plans Sought

Bruce Smith
 

David,

CRECo = Chicago Railway Equipment Company

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

"david" <dguillaudeu@...> 03/21/11 8:15 PM >>>
Aidrian,

Thank you for the suggestion. The name on the side of the car could be
Pennsylvania, I just would not have expected a Pennsylvania car to be
used in a house service such as milk can collection.

I searched for Creco doors and found some models. I agree with your
suggestion. I checked my DVD of the 1922 car builders' cyclopedia. I did
not find Creco in it. Can you give me a little more info on them?

David

--- In STMFC@..., Aidrian & Susie Bridgeman-Sutton
<smokeandsteam@...> wrote:


I have come across a small published photo of what appears to be a
Southern box car being used in a milk run on the Washington and Old
Dominion Railway. The photo is from the 1920 era. The W&OD was running
on tracks leased from the Southern at that time. The box car has four or
five vertically riveted panels on each side of the door. The door
construction is a little unusual (not one I have seen before). Similar
to an outside braced box car, the door has outside bracing creating the
impression of three horizontal panels. <<

David

I don't think this description fits any Southern prototype from the
1920s.

What you describe might be a Creco door, and perhaps it might be a PRR
or NYC car? Both had steel cars with Creco doors in this period

Aidrian








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