Date   

Re: Southern composite hopper interiors

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

David Thompson wrote:
If the interiors were painted at all (and many weren't) it would have been whatever the exterior color was, and said paint wouldn't have lasted more than a load or two. After that, some combination of bright rust (metal), light or dark wood (depending on age), and coal dust or whatever the last load was.
I have a mild disagreement with this statement, based on observations of the insides of LOTS of hopper cars, mostly B&O but including several other roads, during the time I worked at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh. The B&O's Panther Hollow line ran below campus and any passing train was readily observed from a high angle. Although this was in the 1980s, industries in the area utilized predominantly older twin hoppers of the type built and operated during the STMFC era.
Most hoppers I saw DID have some interior paint, largely on the upper center of interior walls. Slope sheets were bare metal, sometimes rusty but often polished, unrusted (yet) steel. Lower interior car sides were usually a mix of rust and paint areas. It was certainly evident that all or nearly all of the cars I saw HAD been painted inside originally, and that despite the evident age of the cars and their paint jobs, most DID retain some interior paint.
That said, I agree with David that interior weathering of such cars is an interesting challenge and should certainly NOT be all one color.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Heated Box Car?

Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...>
 

I believe you should be looking for insulated box cars subject to Heated Car Service
 
The Railway Association of Canada, Code of Rules for handling Perishable Traffic effective May 1, 1938.
  
Heated car Service Rule 33
 
   Heated Car Service means that carriers will supply heaters to bunkers or tanks of refrigerator cars and light and extinguish them in accordance with "Standard Heating" or "Carriers Protective Service" instructions or in accordance with specific instructions of shippers.
 
 Definition of Standard Heating
 
Rule 46
 
  Under "Standard Heating" or "Carriers Protective Service" instructions, inspectors or other employees will light heaters as soon as practicable when the temperature rises above the degree mentioned: Cars moving under "Standard Heating" or "Carriers Protective Service" will in the event of a rise in the outside temperature will have all ventilators manipulated in accordance with Standard Ventilation instructions unless instructions on billing specifically states otherwise and also subject to Exceptions.
 
Wine, Beer, Ginger Ale and other beverages............................32 above zero
 
Some examples of insulated CPR cars from Canadian Pacific's Equipment Data Book:
 
Series 35000  -  35500
Number of cars      495
Description    Insulated and heated 40 ft., 50-ton capacity box cars with 6ft wide plug doors, two independent charcoal heating systems, side wall ventilators and laminated hardwood flooring. 
 
Series 37000  -  39987  

Number of cars      596
Description    Insulated and heated 40 ft., 40-ton and 50-ton capacity box cars with 5ft wide hinged or plug doors, slatted wooden floor racks and charcoal heating system. Built 1940-1953. Cars in this service are former ice refrigerated cars restricted to heater service only due to condition of overhead tanks. 
 
Carlings Black Label was available on both sides of the 49th, it would not have tasted the same. Same with Lucky Lager.
 
Ross McLeod Calgary



 

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Re: reweigh decals

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 30, 2011, at 3:18 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Tony, you mentioned Sunshine's line of reweigh decals and then
wrote that "Champ also did a set".

Actually, Champ produced 12 sets --

HD-50 reweigh station symbols N'east
HD-51 reweigh station symbols North
HD-52 reweigh station symbols West
HD-53 reweigh station symbols South
HD-60 reweigh dates 1930-1934
HD-61 reweigh dates 1935-1939
HD-62 reweigh dates 1940-1944
HD-63 reweigh dates 1945-1949
HD-64 reweigh dates 1950-1954
HD-65 reweigh dates 1955-1959
HD-66 reweigh dates 1960-1969
HD-67 reweigh dates 1970-1979

Sunshine's sets (and Ted Culotta's decals too) are not especially
useful for modelers of the mid 1950's or later. There are VERY FEW
dates on the sets after 1955, compared to the huge numbers of dates
for the 1940's or early 1950's.

Champ's HD-65 has been a lifesaver for me! All of the sets contain a
variety of type sizes and styles including distinctive prototype
styles
such as PRR.

Union Pacific modelers 1950's are out in the cold -- no yellow reweigh
sets from Sunshine or Champ, although Champ did a "UP data" set... but
I think that was just a part of one of Champ's UP freight car sets.
I'm always surprised that modelers don't know about these. They're
much more comprehensive than the Sunshine decals and the reweigh
station symbols were chosen from the list that's in the STMFC
archives, to which a number of list members contributed. I use them
all the time and find them invaluable.

Richard Hendrickson


Mather reefer lettering

Richard Townsend
 

In the late 1950's was there a standard lettering size used on Mather reefers? If the answer is "they followed the AAR standard," what size lettering would that be?


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


Re: Heated Box Car?

Cyril Durrenberger
 

The Moore patent refrigerator cars had a heater installed under the car.  An example is the model of the vegetable car offered by LaBelle.  The ice bunkers were in the center of the car.  This type of car was used by many upper mid west railroads for a number of years.  The D&IR converted a number of refrigerator cars to this design in the teens, but then converted them into another design in the 1937's and 1940's.  Of course, all of this happened before the main period of interest for most of the members on this list.

Cyril Durrenberger

--- On Wed, 3/30/11, gn3397 <heninger@...> wrote:

From: gn3397 <heninger@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Heated Box Car?
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 8:55 AM







 













--- In STMFC@..., "Andy Harman" <gsgondola@...> wrote:

Ok, this question does have to do with late 1950s freight cars and a little bit to do
with beer, so hopefully it's a legit question.
My uncle was in the USAF in the 1950s, stationed in Canada someplace. Not sure where
but it was cold. He said the only American beer they could get was Carling Black Label,
which had to be shipped in a "heated box car" to keep it from freezing, and apparently
this only happened every so often - hence his hangover story from drinking 19 bottles of
Molson's ale. The implication being he would have been just fine after 19 Carlings.
Anyway, I have never heard any reference to a "heated box car" before or since, and I'm
wondering what exactly he was referring to? It makes sense that in some places you'd
want to keep the manifest from freezing. But I don't think simply having an insulated
box car would have prevented beer from freezing at the sub-zero (F) temperatures of
winter north of the 48th. I've been there, and no American beer would have stood a
chance.
So - is/was there ever any such thing as a heated box car? This thought just popped
into my head between the beer thread, and thinking about reefers both ice and
mechanical, I don't think the mechanicals were heat pumps nor would they have done much
good at 17 below.
Andy


Andy,

It was common for ice bunker refrigerator cars to have charcoal, and perhaps alcohol, heaters lowered into the bunkers to prevent loads from freezing. The example I am most familiar with is GN (Western Fruit Express) using them to keep loads of potatoes from freezing during winter transport. Many of the Canadian built reefers had permanently installed heaters on the underframes, but most US reefer operators couldn't justify the cost/weight penalty. I suppose that some insulated box cars could have temporary heaters placed on the floor as well, but an advantage to having them in the bunker is it helped avoid tipping of the heater, reducing (but not eliminating, of course) the risk of fire. Perhaps this is the heated box car your uncle was referring to?



Having grown up in North Dakota, and being no stranger to subzero temperatures myself, I agree that a heater placed in a standard uninsulated boxcar would have little chance of raising the inside temperature above freezing.



Sincerely,

Robert D. Heninger

Iowa City, IA






















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Re: Southern composite hopper interiors

David
 

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

Would anyone happen to know whether, in the late 40s, the interiors of Southern Railway composite hoppers were painted? I'm working on a War Emergency car (*), and there's a Seley on the to-do shelf.
If the interiors were painted at all (and many weren't) it would have been whatever the exterior color was, and said paint wouldn't have lasted more than a load or two. After that, some combination of bright rust (metal), light or dark wood (depending on age), and coal dust or whatever the last load was.

David Thompson


Re: Tony's reweigh article

MDelvec952
 

Several other modern-era modelers have told me the same thing, that
cars are still reweighed periodically. But the STENCILING conventions
have changed -- the shop location and date are not required to be put
on the car next to the light weight and load limit. In fact, nowadays,
the NEW stencil sometimes shows the original built date of the car for
the entire life of the car! (Which is what prompted a thread about the
changes in stenciling conventions in the 1970's.)

I know this is out of STMFC scope, but you might want to revise your
article slightly.

Tim O'Connor

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: stmfc@...
Sent: Wed, Mar 30, 2011 6:04 pm
Subject: [STMFC] re: Tony's reweigh article
------------------------

Modern cars are reweighed more often than you think. Where I work there were a few cases were loaded cars were detected as overweight in CSX yards and trucks had to be sent from somewhere to reduce that weight.

Similarly, covered hoppers carrying plastic pellets are loaded while the car is sitting on a scale. Quite often the Union Tank Car mobile unit that's based here has to repaint the light weight stencils while the car is being loaded or in the storage yards before it ships. Similarly, Union Tank gets requests to restencil the gallon capacity on cars that the loaders detect needs changing. On a similar note, just this week the FRA sent defect reports on two tank cars outside of our fence requiring that faded capy stencils be freshened up. No location marks are required except on airbrake work.

Scale test cars still tour the Class 1 systems, and these are steam-era gems. The ones that visit here annually are WWI-era "Walthers" cars that still carry Carmer cut levers, stem-winder brakes and "Kadee" couplers. They are required to be moved one car from the hind end.

....Mike


Re: Tony's reweigh article

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
But very recently, Jim Homoki posted this to RPM-Forum

"The reweigh rules were were modified for 1968 with different conditions including a change from 48 months to 60 months with periodic reweigh requirements eliminated in the 1970 Interchange Manual. Then, it went back to 60 months in 1973."
Thanks, Tim. I know about the 1968 modification, thanks to an e- mail from Frank Greene. I have added Frank's information to my blog post in the form of a comment. I was told awhile back by a former carman that he was sure cars were not being reweighed light in the late 1970s, so perhaps the 60-month requirement instituted in 1973 was discontinued again after a few years. But as you say, it's well beyond the concern of this list.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: reweigh decals

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony, you mentioned Sunshine's line of reweigh decals and then
wrote that "Champ also did a set".

Actually, Champ produced 12 sets --

HD-50 reweigh station symbols N'east
HD-51 reweigh station symbols North
HD-52 reweigh station symbols West
HD-53 reweigh station symbols South
HD-60 reweigh dates 1930-1934
HD-61 reweigh dates 1935-1939
HD-62 reweigh dates 1940-1944
HD-63 reweigh dates 1945-1949
HD-64 reweigh dates 1950-1954
HD-65 reweigh dates 1955-1959
HD-66 reweigh dates 1960-1969
HD-67 reweigh dates 1970-1979

Sunshine's sets (and Ted Culotta's decals too) are not especially
useful for modelers of the mid 1950's or later. There are VERY FEW
dates on the sets after 1955, compared to the huge numbers of dates
for the 1940's or early 1950's.

Champ's HD-65 has been a lifesaver for me! All of the sets contain a
variety of type sizes and styles including distinctive prototype styles
such as PRR.

Union Pacific modelers 1950's are out in the cold -- no yellow reweigh
sets from Sunshine or Champ, although Champ did a "UP data" set... but
I think that was just a part of one of Champ's UP freight car sets.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Heated Box Car?

Andy Harman
 

On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 13:38:21 -0700, Jim Betz wrote
It is unlikely that the brand/source of the beer had anything
to do with whether or not it required a warm car for rail
shipping. It is entirely possible that the sources of Canadian
beer didn't get shipped as far or by rail.
Well this just got more interesting. Googling on Carling, it turns out they were and
still are a Canadian beer, not American - and presently owned by... Molson. Brewed in
London, ON. I thought for sure he said that the American beer was Carling but it could
have been something else, or maybe it was the only American "style" beer.

At any rate, wherever he was it must have had to travel more distance than Molson.

Then again after 19 beers, who could keep their story straight anyway? :-)

But I did learn something new... charcoal heaters in ice reefers. Cool. Er... warm.

Andy


Re: Tony's reweigh article

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony, you wrote

"The periodic reweigh requirement, which appears to have been introduced in 1912,
remained in force until October 1, 1967, though reweighing continued to be required
after that in case of significant repairs or modifications."

But very recently, Jim Homoki posted this to RPM-Forum

"The reweigh rules were were modified for 1968 with different conditions including a change
from 48 months to 60 months with periodic reweigh requirements eliminated in the 1970
Interchange Manual. Then, it went back to 60 months in 1973."

Several other modern-era modelers have told me the same thing, that
cars are still reweighed periodically. But the STENCILING conventions
have changed -- the shop location and date are not required to be put
on the car next to the light weight and load limit. In fact, nowadays,
the NEW stencil sometimes shows the original built date of the car for
the entire life of the car! (Which is what prompted a thread about the
changes in stenciling conventions in the 1970's.)

I know this is out of STMFC scope, but you might want to revise your
article slightly.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Dairy Dispatch and URTC/URTX

ROGER HINMAN
 

Researching the early reefer companies can be problematic as information is very sparce. My understanding of URT is it was picked up by ART in the early 1890s, then was set up as an independent company after the turn of the century. The offices stayed in St Louis for a few more years then it moved to Milwaukee for good. Its fortunes picked up in the 1920s when the Milwaukee sold its refrigerator car fleet and began leasing URT cars. It was then picked up by General American. The URTX reporting marks did not come in until after the GA took over I believe.


Any information you have on the Cudahy-Milwaukee Refrigerator Line I would be interested in reviewing. Please contact me off line


Roger Hinman
On Mar 30, 2011, at 9:24 AM, asychis@... wrote:

I have a reference that notes the ART purchased 269 cars from "Dairy
Dispatch" in 1887. Would this be National Dairy Dispatch (NDDX)? Anyone have
information on this car line. I realize 1887 is pretty far back, but I am
taking a shot.

Also, ART leased 1,050 reefers from Union Refrigerator Transit Company
(URTC) in 1892, and also had the use of certain cars of the Cold Blast
Transportation Co. and the Cudahy-Milwaukee Refrigerator Line The URTC cars
were the typical billboard reefers of the time and carried the following
slogans:
Pabst Brewing Co., Milwaukee, WI 400
cars
Val Blatz Brewing Co., Milwaukee, WI 50
cars
Jos. Schlitz Brewing Co., Milwaukee, WI 200
cars
Sioux City Dressed Beef & Canning Co., Sioux City, IA 100 cars
Liverpool & Des Moines Packing Co., Des Moines, IA 50 cars
John Morrell & Co., Ottumwa, IA
50 cars
East St. Louis Packing and Provision Co., E. St. Louis, IL 50 cars
Green Tire Brewing Co., St. Louis, MO 25
cars
Anthony & Kuhn Brewing Co., St. Louis, MO 25 cars
No records are known as to when these cars were returned to URTC or the
number of cars leased from the Cold Blast Transportation Co. and the
Cudahy-Milwaukee Refrigerator Line. In 1898 ART leased 2,250 cars from URTC of
Kentucky and returned them in 1906. From existing records, these seem to be
different cars than the URTC cars leased in 1892. Neither group of cars is
listed in the roster.
Does anyone know if URTX of 1892 differs from the URTC of Kentucky noted
in 1898? Was URTC the same as URTX?
Thanks,
Jerry Michels





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Heated box cars

Walter
 

In addition to cars having heaters fastened to the floor there were also cradles w/heaters that could be hung from the ceiling.

Lenny Ohrnell


Re: Heated Box Car?

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

It is unlikely that the brand/source of the beer had anything
to do with whether or not it required a warm car for rail
shipping. It is entirely possible that the sources of Canadian
beer didn't get shipped as far or by rail.
Although Canadian beer is higher in alcohol content it isn't
enough to make that kind of difference in the shipping. But
it certainly could affect the hangover when you've consumed 19
of them!
- Jim


Interesting Reefer photo on Ebay

Bill Welch
 

There is an interesting outside braced URTX/MILW reefer on eBay. It is item # 310308099475

Bill Welch


Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars

Randy Williamson
 

Bruce,

On my website: http://www.prrfreight.com/FW-8.htm it does show
livestock being received from Union Stock Yard.

Randy Williamson
www.prrfreight.com

Quoting Bruce Smith :

> Bruce,

I was surprised too - read through the paragraph about 3 times to
make sure Chicago wasn't in there. I know PRR FW-8 originated in
Chicago, but I need to find the keystone articles that described it
and confirm the cars "originating" there were from interchange, not
from the stock yards.

Dave Evans
Dave,

I highly doubt that you will "confirm" anything of the sort. Given
rest times for stock and the marketing of stock, PRR stock trains
were almost certainly loaded at Chicago stock yards. Now, it is
important to realize that "stock yard" is about as descriptive as
"steam era freight car", as there were many types of holding
facilities. It may be that Chicago's absence from the
directive could have been due to pooling already being ongoing or
that access to the appropriate yards was via a single railroad or
belt railway.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
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Re: My reweigh article in RMC

Bill Schneider
 

Clear your cache and try again. Worked for me...

Bill Schneider

From: Jeff Sankus
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 2:52 PM
To: STMFC@...
Cc: Anthony Thompson
Subject: Re: [STMFC] My reweigh article in RMC


Hi Tony;
I just tried to look at the article again and the same problem exists.
Jeff S.

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 2:36 AM, Anthony Thompson <
mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> wrote:



Some of you may have seen the article I wrote for Railroad
Model Craftsman, published in the April 2011 issue. Unfortunately,
some important information was omitted from the printed version, and
there are also some typos and other errors, introduced in the
production process. For anyone interested, I'm providing a correct
version on my modeling blog at:

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2011/03/reweigh-article-from-rmc.html

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars

Bruce Smith
 

Bruce,

I was surprised too - read through the paragraph about 3 times to
make sure Chicago wasn't in there. I know PRR FW-8 originated in
Chicago, but I need to find the keystone articles that described it
and confirm the cars "originating" there were from interchange, not
from the stock yards.

Dave Evans
Dave,

I highly doubt that you will "confirm" anything of the sort. Given
rest times for stock and the marketing of stock, PRR stock trains
were almost certainly loaded at Chicago stock yards. Now, it is
important to realize that "stock yard" is about as descriptive as
"steam era freight car", as there were many types of holding
facilities. <Speculation> It may be that Chicago's absence from the
directive could have been due to pooling already being ongoing or
that access to the appropriate yards was via a single railroad or
belt railway.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Heated Box Car?

water.kresse@...
 

I got the impression that on the C&O they also stored the heaters at their divisional engine change location also . . . like Hinton when you got to the crest of the mountains and changed from a 2-6-6-6 to a 2-8-4 locomotive .  They would walk the reefers and check their temps to adjust vents or heaters.  Heater starter kits also had to be stored in a secure cabinet (they made great Boy Scout bond-fire or deer hunter camp-fire starters also).



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Sperandeo" <asperandeo@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 2:29:40 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Heated Box Car?

Hi Andy,

On the BAR and NH heater cars (from Pacific Car & Foundry) the heater was hung from the underframe and visible from the side. I'm not too sure exactly what it looked like, other than a box, but perhaps there are pictures in some of the Car Cycs. In a December 1989 MR Paint Shop article, Alan Houghton modeled a couple of these cars in O scale. He described the heaters as "Luminator-Mitchell No. 14 charcoal heaters." He used scale 24-in.- square, 36-in.-long blocks to represent them, with scale 6-in. diameter ducts from the end of the block up into the floor of the car. The AAR car type, by the way, was "XIH."

The typical bunker heaters used in reefers were cylindrical or can-shaped, and roughly the size of a milk can. They are definitely shown in car Cycs from the 20s into the 50s. A row of them would make a good detail for an icing platform in cold-weather country.

So long,

Andy


Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142


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Re: My reweigh article in RMC

Jeff Sankus
 

Tony;
Excellent. Works now, Thank you.
Jeff

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Anthony Thompson <
thompson@...> wrote:



I just tried to look at the article again and the same problem exists.
I made the correction again. Reload your page and try it.


Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



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