Date   

Announcement

Al and Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Westerfield Models will no longer accept orders of any kind. Unless the business is sold we will fill all orders in house to the best of our ability. Because of the immense number of last minute orders, those orders may not be filled until November. - Al Westerfield


Re: Steam era freight yards, take II

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., "pullmanboss" <tcmadden@...> wrote:


On Veterans Day 1960 I took a series of three shots of the PRR Phillipsburg facilities from across the river just south of Easton. A couple of years ago I assembled them into a panoramic view of questionable quality - at least, as best as I could. When taking the photos I neglected to overlap the left and center ones:

http://www.pullmanproject.com/Phillipsburg.jpg

The line of cars at the left is no doubt bound for or just in from the Alpha cement plant at Martin's Creek, PA, a few miles north of Easton. The PRR crossed the Delaware to reach it, while the DL&W served it from Bangor to the north, and the LNE came up from the south. Fascinating place.

Tom Madden
Tom,

Thanks for the post - the white tower near the right edge of your photo was likely just behind the photographer of the photo that started this. Interesting equipment in your photo - a Russel snow plow, I think a derrick (hard to make out).

A railfan site claimed the PRR had a hump yard here - I am not convinced and can not find any indication of that anywhere.

Dave Evans


Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars

Douglas Harding
 

Thanks Tim, just got home and found an email from Randy asking for help. I
was able to identify his website was built using FrontPage, which as you
say, is a problem. I have contacted him offline, but I have no idea how to
correct the problem. Do you? If so contact Randy.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: Steam era freight yards, take II

pullmanboss <tcmadden@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

I am amazed at the size of PRR's operation here. As a Jersey boy myself, all
I ever saw in this area seemed much in decline. But besides the LV, this is
the main conduit for PRR-L&HR traffic through the Maybrook gateway. I'd guess
that the L&HR traffic was a higher volume than LV interchange here, for PRR.

Easton-Phillipsburg would be a fascinating place for a steam era layout - PRR,
CNJ, LV, L&HR and DL&W. All of them in packed into an area of less than 10 sq
miles.
On Veterans Day 1960 I took a series of three shots of the PRR Phillipsburg facilities from across the river just south of Easton. A couple of years ago I assembled them into a panoramic view of questionable quality - at least, as best as I could. When taking the photos I neglected to overlap the left and center ones:

http://www.pullmanproject.com/Phillipsburg.jpg

The line of cars at the left is no doubt bound for or just in from the Alpha cement plant at Martin's Creek, PA, a few miles north of Easton. The PRR crossed the Delaware to reach it, while the DL&W served it from Bangor to the north, and the LNE came up from the south. Fascinating place.

Tom Madden


Re: Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof

Tim O'Connor
 

T&NO B-50-25 series 54850-55199 had wide seam doors, but
T&NO series 55200-55699 had Superior doors.

As everyone here should know, any box car built for a US railroad
from 1944 onwards had steel running boards (until after the era of
STMFC interest).

The first use of the diagonal panel roof was 1948. Since these cars
were built 1946-1947, you know that IM has made a mistake if they used
an RP roof.

Ed Hawkins noted the first use of the diagonal panel roof was on
a series of GN 10' 12 panel box cars -- just like the IM kit!

Tim O'Connor

Everything I know and every document I can access says the IM
T&NO version is wrong. Moreover, all of the Class B-50-25 cars, having
been built during and after 1946, were built with a steel running
board (Morton or Apex). Photos show that this was the case even for
the earliest cars in the class, built in July 1946. The IM cars also
need a wide-seam door, available from Southwest models, the same
distinctive door as on the B-50-24 Overnight cars.

Tony Thompson


Re: Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof

Ed Hawkins
 

On Mar 31, 2011, at 8:48 PM, WaltGCox@... wrote:

I am looking for some wide seam doors and tried to Google" Southwest
models" but the closest hit was for a 737 wrapped in a decal of a
(female)
model. Would anyone have their website or more of the company name?
Walt,
Southwest Scale Productions at http://www.southwestscale.com/
Ed Hawkins


Re: Steam era freight yards, take II

Jim Wolf
 

P'burg is correct from my track chart from 1963. It shows about the same number of yard tracks (about 12) in the foreground, and it appears that the "bowl" or class yard is behind the photographer.

Jim Wolf
Belen, NM

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Evans" <devans1@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@> wrote:

Bruce

That was my first thought too, but the terrain seems wrong for L&NE
or LV. The lack of any tall surrounding hills plus the river, gives
me the impression of somewhere along the Susquehanna, or the Delaware
south of the Water Gap -- way south -- but I couln't think of any
yards just like this along the Delaware. Actually my very first idea
was Wilkes-Barre PA where the valley of the Susquehanna opens out.

I hope someone can identify the location!

Tim O'Connor



I doubt that any of these tracks belong to the PRR (although I could
be wrong). If the location is NJ, then it must be somewhere in the
north/west parts of Joisey, due to the hills. Location could also be
in northeast PA.

The 2 offset 2-bay hoppers in the nearest string of cars - Lehigh and
New England?

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
Guys,

You were getting warm. This is the PRR's Phillipsburg, NJ yard on the Bel-Del. The yard is on the east shore of the Delaware River, although at this location the river bank along the tracks is facing due south. The Bel-Del mainline is at the far right, intermixed with the loaded yard tracks. This was the PRR's interchange point with the Lehigh Valley (over the photographers left shoulder - I think all visible track is PRR). I am not near my books, but according to a PA railfan web site, there was a hump yard here, and the hump would be just over and behind the photographers left shoulder, with a tower just behind the photographer on the same side of the tracks. The empty yard tracks to the left center would be the bowl. Further over the photographers shoulder would be a PRR roundhouse, a smaller yard, and then the interchange with the LV.

Pictures from Penn Pilot pretty much confirm the geometry, although the 1939 Penn Pilot does not suggest quite as many yard tracks, while the 50's Penn Pilot photo shows quite a bit. Was this one of the PRR's WWII expansion projects? Locally the terrain is pretty much a flat plateau about 100-150 feet above river level, and this matches the view one gets in Google Earth.

The main line itself still exists, and based on Google Earth, the bridge across the creek in the distance looks to be unchanged. The yard and engine facilities look to be long gone.

I would love to get a hi-res image of this for, dare I say, a WWII fleet balance count... ;-)

Dave Evans


Re: Steam era freight yards, take II

Tim O'Connor
 

Dave Evans wrote

This is the PRR's Phillipsburg, NJ yard on the Bel-Del .... there was a
hump yard here, and the hump would be just over and behind the photographers
left shoulder.... Further over the photographers shoulder would be.. the
interchange with the LV.

Cool!

I am amazed at the size of PRR's operation here. As a Jersey boy myself, all
I ever saw in this area seemed much in decline. But besides the LV, this is
the main conduit for PRR-L&HR traffic through the Maybrook gateway. I'd guess
that the L&HR traffic was a higher volume than LV interchange here, for PRR.

Easton-Phillipsburg would be a fascinating place for a steam era layout - PRR,
CNJ, LV, L&HR and DL&W. All of them in packed into an area of less than 10 sq
miles.

All signs of it seem erased in Google Earth, but there was once a direct link
from the lower (south) end of the PRR that went under the LV and CNJ lines to
the DL&W line.

Tim O'


Re: Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof

Jim Hayes
 

Try Andy Carlson midcentury@...
<midcentury@...>
Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com


On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 6:48 PM, <WaltGCox@...> wrote:



Sorry about that last post. I had just hit the reply button when our cocker

spaniel landed in my lap causing me to hit the send button. The result is
history.

I am looking for some wide seam doors and tried to Google" Southwest
models" but the closest hit was for a 737 wrapped in a decal of a (female)
model. Would anyone have their website or more of the company name?

TIA Walt

In a message dated 3/31/2011 8:15:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_thompson@... (mailto:thompson@...) writes:

The IM cars also need a wide-seam door, available from Southwest models,
the same
distinctive door as on the B-50-24 Overnight cars.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof

WaltGCox@...
 

Sorry about that last post. I had just hit the reply button when our cocker
spaniel landed in my lap causing me to hit the send button. The result is
history.

I am looking for some wide seam doors and tried to Google" Southwest
models" but the closest hit was for a 737 wrapped in a decal of a (female)
model. Would anyone have their website or more of the company name?

TIA Walt

In a message dated 3/31/2011 8:15:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_thompson@... (mailto:thompson@...) writes:

The IM cars also need a wide-seam door, available from Southwest models,
the same
distinctive door as on the B-50-24 Overnight cars.


Re: Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Paul Lyons wrote:
Mike is asking about the 26's, not the 25's. You still need a Southwest door, but not the wide seam one.
You're right. I was emphasizing that the -25s, preceding the -26s, all had steel running boards, so a -26 with wood running board is definitely bogus. My comment on the wide-seam door only applies to the 1946 -25s. The 1947 -25s and all -26s had a different door, as you say.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof

WaltGCox@...
 

In a message dated 3/31/2011 8:15:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
thompson@... writes:

mike brock wrote:
OK. For Tony Thompson...although others are welcome to chime in. The
SP 12 panel B-50-26 box car. Intermountain has produced both the SP
and T&NO versions. The SP version has a panel roof and wood running
board. The T&NO version has a diagonal roof and metal running board
[ at least mine does ].
Everything I know and every document I can access says the IM
T&NO version is wrong. Moreover, all of the Class B-50-25 cars, having
been built during and after 1946, were built with a steel running
board (Morton or Apex). Photos show that this was the case even for
the earliest cars in the class, built in July 1946. The IM cars also
need a wide-seam door, available from Southwest models, the same
distinctive door as on the B-50-24 Overnight cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, _thompson@...
(mailto:thompson@...)
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof

Paul Lyons
 

Tony,
Mike is asking about the 26's, not the 25's. You still need a Southwest door, but not the wide seam one.
Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, Mar 31, 2011 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof




mike brock wrote:
OK. For Tony Thompson...although others are welcome to chime in. The
SP 12 panel B-50-26 box car. Intermountain has produced both the SP
and T&NO versions. The SP version has a panel roof and wood running
board. The T&NO version has a diagonal roof and metal running board
[ at least mine does ].
Everything I know and every document I can access says the IM
T&NO version is wrong. Moreover, all of the Class B-50-25 cars, having
been built during and after 1946, were built with a steel running
board (Morton or Apex). Photos show that this was the case even for
the earliest cars in the class, built in July 1946. The IM cars also
need a wide-seam door, available from Southwest models, the same
distinctive door as on the B-50-24 Overnight cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

mike brock wrote:
OK. For Tony Thompson...although others are welcome to chime in. The SP 12 panel B-50-26 box car. Intermountain has produced both the SP and T&NO versions. The SP version has a panel roof and wood running board. The T&NO version has a diagonal roof and metal running board [ at least mine does ].
Everything I know and every document I can access says the IM T&NO version is wrong. Moreover, all of the Class B-50-25 cars, having been built during and after 1946, were built with a steel running board (Morton or Apex). Photos show that this was the case even for the earliest cars in the class, built in July 1946. The IM cars also need a wide-seam door, available from Southwest models, the same distinctive door as on the B-50-24 Overnight cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof

Paul Lyons
 

Mike,

The SP and the T&NO B-50-26's had straight panel roofs and metal running boards. The running board manufacturers varied depending on the builder and car series number. The real problem with the Intermountain kit is that the end is really not correct ( I will get some flak here) and that is why Culotta did his SP B-50-25 kit. One of these kits with one of the Southwest (Dan Hall) Superior, or interm Youngstown doors, is the most accurate way to get a B-50-26. Then as has been ststed on this list, it will not be "dead on" accurate as the IM kit is based on a Great Northern car.

Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: mike brock <brockm@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, Mar 31, 2011 3:10 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof




The subject of this message has probably been discussed many times. Fine.
It's going to be discussed again. Remember, I'm the only one at this party
with a gun<G>.

OK. For Tony Thompson...although others are welcome to chime in. The SP 12
panel B-50-26 box car. Intermountain has produced both the SP and T&NO
versions. The SP version has a panel roof and wood running board. The T&NO
version has a diagonal roof and metal running board [ at least mine does ].

Tony's excellent book on SP box cars, Vol 4 of his SP Freight Cars, notes on
pg 303 that the B-50-27 had the first digonal roofs [presumably of the 40 ft
SP box cars ]. Futhermore, Table 12-2 on pg 283 indicates a panel roof. Do
we have a problem?

Mike Brock







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Steam era freight yards, take II

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Bruce

That was my first thought too, but the terrain seems wrong for L&NE
or LV. The lack of any tall surrounding hills plus the river, gives
me the impression of somewhere along the Susquehanna, or the Delaware
south of the Water Gap -- way south -- but I couln't think of any
yards just like this along the Delaware. Actually my very first idea
was Wilkes-Barre PA where the valley of the Susquehanna opens out.

I hope someone can identify the location!

Tim O'Connor



I doubt that any of these tracks belong to the PRR (although I could
be wrong). If the location is NJ, then it must be somewhere in the
north/west parts of Joisey, due to the hills. Location could also be
in northeast PA.

The 2 offset 2-bay hoppers in the nearest string of cars - Lehigh and
New England?

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
Guys,

You were getting warm. This is the PRR's Phillipsburg, NJ yard on the Bel-Del. The yard is on the east shore of the Delaware River, although at this location the river bank along the tracks is facing due south. The Bel-Del mainline is at the far right, intermixed with the loaded yard tracks. This was the PRR's interchange point with the Lehigh Valley (over the photographers left shoulder - I think all visible track is PRR). I am not near my books, but according to a PA railfan web site, there was a hump yard here, and the hump would be just over and behind the photographers left shoulder, with a tower just behind the photographer on the same side of the tracks. The empty yard tracks to the left center would be the bowl. Further over the photographers shoulder would be a PRR roundhouse, a smaller yard, and then the interchange with the LV.

Pictures from Penn Pilot pretty much confirm the geometry, although the 1939 Penn Pilot does not suggest quite as many yard tracks, while the 50's Penn Pilot photo shows quite a bit. Was this one of the PRR's WWII expansion projects? Locally the terrain is pretty much a flat plateau about 100-150 feet above river level, and this matches the view one gets in Google Earth.

The main line itself still exists, and based on Google Earth, the bridge across the creek in the distance looks to be unchanged. The yard and engine facilities look to be long gone.

I would love to get a hi-res image of this for, dare I say, a WWII fleet balance count... ;-)

Dave Evans


Intermountain SP T&NO B-50-26 roof

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

The subject of this message has probably been discussed many times. Fine. It's going to be discussed again. Remember, I'm the only one at this party with a gun<G>.

OK. For Tony Thompson...although others are welcome to chime in. The SP 12 panel B-50-26 box car. Intermountain has produced both the SP and T&NO versions. The SP version has a panel roof and wood running board. The T&NO version has a diagonal roof and metal running board [ at least mine does ].

Tony's excellent book on SP box cars, Vol 4 of his SP Freight Cars, notes on pg 303 that the B-50-27 had the first digonal roofs [presumably of the 40 ft SP box cars ]. Futhermore, Table 12-2 on pg 283 indicates a panel roof. Do we have a problem?

Mike Brock


Curtains for Refrigerator Cars

Bill Welch
 

I have some stenciling drawing for curtains used by FGE/WFE. Can
anyone offer information about what kind of material(s) these
curtains were made of?

Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@...


Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars

Jim Gates
 

CJ is Chicago Junction, which had the trackage at the Union Stock Yards in
Chicago. IIRC it was leased to another NYC subsidiary.

Jim Gates





________________________________
From: Richard Orr <SUVCWORR@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, March 31, 2011 8:28:20 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars


Tim,

PFtW&C = Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago = PRR
PCC&StL = Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis = PRR Panhandle route

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:27 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars

I would think livestock from Belt railway and IHB were likely stock that
did not pass through the Union Stock yard. I could not find info on other
Chicago area stock yards that RR's may have had for resting live stock.
Dave Evans

------------------------------

I have a fold-out annotated map of the Chicago area in 1938 from a
Chicago & Alton report that shows all of the active railroad yards in
the area and describes the Alton's (and the B&O's) use of yards and
interactions with other railroads...

Anyway, Alton's Glenn Yard astride the C&A mainline, north of Clearing
Yard and west of the "Stock Yards" is where the Alton staged transfers
to the stock yards. Other yards close by the stock yards are a Wabash
yard (appears to be joint C&WI/WAB trackage), Garfield Blvd Yard (PFW&C),
33rd St Yard (C&WI), 59th St Yard (PCC&StL), Ashland Ave Yard (CJ - this
is a large yard, hard by the stock yards, probably a major staging area
for the stock yards), Leavitt St [sic?] yard (no owner indicated),
Englewood Yard (NYC, just southeast of the stock yards), and 43rd St yard
(Rock Island). The only entries to the stock yards are a wye off the IHB
on the south end, and east-west entry points off the CJ (Chicago Junction?)
on the north end.

Notes say "BARR YARD of the B&OCT was the principal operating yard of the
B&O-B&OCT prior to unification of operations at Glenn Yard, Feb 1933". There
is a direct line of the B&OCT that runs northwest past Clearing Yard and
Argo yard and then connects with the Alton to Glenn Yard. So I guess that
stock could be transferred directly between the Alton and B&O. Also the
IHB Blue Island yard is just below Barr Yard, and nearby to the south is
the IC's huge Markham Yard.

Anyway it looks like Dave is correct that transfers could be made via the
BRC and IHB that bypassed the Union Stock Yards. I've never heard of these
railroads PCC&StL, CJ, PFW&C before -- their proximity to the stock yards
seems to indicate there were more actors here than just the BRC and IHB and
C&WI, when it comes to stock operations.

Tim O'Connor

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Steam era freight yards, take II

pullmanboss <tcmadden@...>
 

Brian Carlson wrote:

On the EL list, Clark's Summit was mentioned. I don't know the area, so I can't confirm, just passing it on to this list.
Clarks Summit is named for its location up on a ridge. No river of that size in Clarks Summit.

Tom Madden

96981 - 97000 of 195614