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Re: 40's era tank cars for sulfuric acid loading

gettheredesigns <rick@...>
 

Acid tanks have hauled acid in and out of smelters and copper refineries since the early days, long before air pollution laws. The smelters around Ducktown, TN went to acid recovery in 1904, because acid was a valuable by-product of sulfide ores. And also because acid emissions made the landscape look like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ducktown_train.jpg

Yes, that is Tennesee. Notice the freight car. The area around Wawa, Ontario looks similar, from the past roasting of iron sulfide ores.

Acids are used as the electrolyte in electrolytic copper refining, which may or may not be done at the same site as the smelter.

Peace, Rick

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

Among other uses, sulfuric acid is shipped to potato growing regions where it is sprayed on the vines shortly before mechanical harvesting to kill the vines. Apparently the harvesting machines work better when the vines are dead and dried out. Acid from ASARCO in El Paso went to Royalton, Minn. for example.

Gene Green


Re: Boxcar sides loaded for shipping

Guy Wilber
 

On Mar 20, 2011, at 6:14 PM, Jim Hayes wrote:

This might help a little.
www.sunshinekits.com/suninst/instmk29.pdf

Jim and Tom,

That representation of the box car sides load is no where close to the AAR diagram for that particular load.

Additionally, the mention of steel banding not used until the 1950s is in error as well. Steel banding was used in numerous, if not the majority, of loading diagrams by the late 1920s. That includes Figure 34-A used to secure box car sides within gondolas.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: "MACHINERY LOADS FOR GONS" ARTICLE (UNCLASSIFIED)

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 21, 2011, at 5:08 AM, Gatwood, Elden SAW wrote:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

I remember seeing tarped loads close up, and those I saw were held
in place
with long strips of wood nailed to the deck or floor. The nails
went right
through the wood and tarp. The excess tarp appeared to have been
folded
under the wood so no excess tarp would flap around, maybe?
Elden, I have a number of photos of canvas covered machinery loaded
on flat cars, and what you describe is exactly what they show.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Foreign Road Stock Cars (was Re: Pacemaker boxcar usageoff-line of NYC)

Bruce Smith
 

FW-8, "Man-o-war" dates back at least into the 20's - a Keystone
article shows a K2s on the point from 1925 (Pacific class for the
non-SPF's on the list), so the symbol appears to have survived for
30 years.
Dave,

Luckily, I said IIRC <VBG> allowing me to blame my memory!

Back to your original question about PRR Middle Division stock train
consists during WWII. While there has been a lot of speculation, and
many comments about stock handling in general, most have missed the
point with respect to the PRR.

PRR Stock shipments did NOT (in general) originate from the range.
Rather, these shipments originated from larger feedlots. The stock
were no longer owned by the farmer, but by the feedlot. Thus, they
were NOT accompanied by drovers and there was no need for the
originating road stock car to continue with the stock, since the
stock would have spent days to weeks in the stockyard.

Given that the PRR had in excess of 2,000 of its own stock cars, the
majority of stock movement during WWII on PRR rails would have been
in K7A and K8 stock cars. Obviously, you should have picked up a
number of the BLI K7A and as for the K8, all I can say is cross your
fingers <VBG> (although a stand in can be had from the TM stock
car). Additional stock cars from connecting roads, especially at the
major stock cities of Chicago, Cincinnati and Saint Louis, were
relatively common. Among those that can be seen in photos on the PRR
were Milwaukee, ATSF, UP, Mopac and Frisco. These cars were likely
"available" and used as needed to fill out PRR stock trains. Stock
cars from non-connecting roads would have been less likely, but
possible (eg SP). Given the issues of WWII, a few oddballs (eg
Rutland) might also be seen.

There was some direct traffic from the range to the PRR as well.
Perhaps most notable would have been cattle from the King Ranch to
their location in southeastern PA. These would have been far less
likely to transfer between cars and thus these trains probably
contained a much higher ratio of western stock cars. These would
have been in addition to the movements detailed in the arranged
freight schedules in the ETTs.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Foreign Road Stock Cars

np328
 

Years ago, while researching data for our group meet which happened to be in Fargo, ND., I came across some paperwork that indicated cars of livestock from the west were rested and more importantly, inspected for disease at Dilworth, MN. Dilworth is a few miles east of Fargo, and site of a good sized NP yard. This would have been the last stop before the St. Paul stockyards. IIRC correctly, this was a govt. mandated inspection.

I also have some data on an NP/UP stock movement from Billings, MT. stock yards to a Los Angeles Armour plant via Butte, MT. Notes on a letter relate that of this new (as of Oct 45) service - the UP is doing very well in balancing out as yesterday they had 98 NP cars and the NP had 80 UP cars.
Jim Dick - St. Paul

--- In STMFC@..., S hed <shed999@...> wrote:
On March 14th I sent the following to the "Railway Bull Shippers" Group that I belong to.

The book that I found is called, "Report of the Federal Trade Commission on the Meat Packing Industry, Part III, Methods of the Five Packers in Controlling the Meat-Packing Industry, June 28, 1919."
- - snip - -
----------------------------------
I hope this helps.
- Steve Hedlund, Silver Lake, WA


Re: 40's era tank cars for sulfuric acid loading

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Among other uses, sulfuric acid is shipped to potato growing regions where it is sprayed on the vines shortly before mechanical harvesting to kill the vines. Apparently the harvesting machines work better when the vines are dead and dried out. Acid from ASARCO in El Paso went to Royalton, Minn. for example.

Gene Green


Re: Sunshine instructions

Des Norman
 

Hi Fenton,
I've just checked the list of Sunshine kits in the Files section. The ones listed are all later kits.

The label on the kit I have has;
'PRR X-26C steel rebuild, Superior door, straight panel'

Maybe your one is another variant of the X26C, in which case presumably the same instructions would do, so please send when convenient.

Regards,
Des

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

I have kit 64.35 a X-26C do you think they are the same? Let me know and I can scan and send.
Fenton

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 4:58 PM, Des Norman <desanorman@...> wrote:
Hello all,
I recently bought 2nd-hand an unstarted Sunshine kit. It's kit #64.21 for a PRR X26C. Unfortunately there are no instruction sheets included.

Would anyone have a set of instructions which they could scan and email, please? It would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,
Des Norman
--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


Re: "MACHINERY LOADS FOR GONS" ARTICLE (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

I remember seeing tarped loads close up, and those I saw were held in place
with long strips of wood nailed to the deck or floor. The nails went right
through the wood and tarp. The excess tarp appeared to have been folded
under the wood so no excess tarp would flap around, maybe?

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Paul
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 2:45 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] "MACHINERY LOADS FOR GONS" ARTICLE



Bill:

In going through all of my AAR Rules books covering the "Loading of
Commodities On Open Top Cars" I find no mention of the covering or tarping of
the load. The rules are very specific as to how the load was to be secured to
the car. I would assume that after inspection by the "Railroad Loading
Inspector" the shipper could cover the load with tarps any way they wanted to
protect their product from the weather. One would assume that to insure that
the tarp stayed in place for the entire trip they were well secured to the
car.

Paul C. Koehler

_____

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
WILLIAM PARDIE
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 11:27 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] "MACHINERY LOADS FOR GONS" ARTICLE

I have a question prompted by Clark Propst excellent article on machinery
loads in the current RMC. As I would like to incorporate this technique for
flat cars I would like to know how the tarps were secured. Probably tacked to
the deck, cinched by rope or a combination of both.
Just want to be sure before I start.

Thaks in advance.

Bill Pardie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Foreign Road Stock Cars (was Re: Pacemaker boxcar usageoff-line of NYC)

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

Folks,

Just a quick note on this subject to clarify. The original question
from Dave Evans was regarding WWII era stock trains. Most of the trains
cited below are post WWII, as are their schedules. Even the "Man O'war
cited by Dave is post WWII, iirc.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
Bruce,

FW-8, "Man-o-war" dates back at least into the 20's - a Keystone article shows a K2s on the point from 1925 (Pacific class for the non-SPF's on the list), so the symbol appears to have survived for 30 years.

I have WWII ETT's showing SW-2 from St. Louis to Enola, with a stop in Columbus that also appears to be a stock train - the blocks from both SW-2 and FW-8 destined for Philly and NYC were combined at Enola for the final rush east.

Back to STMFC content - during WWII were there any unique car service rules for stock cars that would impact the distribution of stock cars?

Photographs of stock cars on the PRR middle division are pretty rare and I have been unable to discern any roadnames. Some/many cars are clearly not PRR K7 and K8's, but most shots are too close to head-on - I wish railfans/photographers hadn't been so obsessed with motive power ;-)

As for switching cars during rest stops, I can see where that would create a waybill nightmare of sorts. But then how was stock sold/transported? Would the stock only be moved with a single owner per car? There must have been some way to tie the stock's owner to the transportation costs.

Also - does anyone have any good info on how the eastern roads handled "drovers" during the steam era? An extra caboose/cabin perhaps? Western stock moves seem a little better documented.

Thanks,
Dave Evans


Re: Boxcar sides loaded for shipping

Guy Wilber
 

Tom wrote:

Would anyone on the list have some other photos showing the way the car sides are packaged together and also anything showing how they are blocked in the car for shipment. I would like to recreate this load and my copies of AAR rules do not show this loading. It only shows boxcar doors.
Tom,

You need a copy of Figure 34-A which was first added to the Loading Rules in 1938. I can scan and send later in the week unless someone else beats me to it.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: 40's era tank cars for sulfuric acid loading

Eric Hiser <ehiser@...>
 

Rich:
It would depend upon whether the smelter was tied to a mine that
needed acid for leaching. In that case, some acid recovery occurred prior
to the introduction of the Primary Copper New Source Performance Standard
and State Implementation Plan requirements that you mentioned. Whether such
a need for acid existed is a very case-specific question that the individual
asking the original question will (it is hoped) know the answer to.

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, aZ

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
SUVCWORR@...
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 7:08 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] 40's era tank cars for sulfuric acid loading







As the recovery of SO2 in the form of sulfuric acid resulted primarily from
the institution of air pollution regulations, it is doubtful that much was
occurring in 1948. The firs air pollution regulations in the US were
adopted in Allegheny County (Pittsburgh) Pennsylvania in 1948 with
implementation beginning in 1949. Even with that it took years to bring
about any significant reduction in SO2 and corresponding production of
by-products such as H2SO4.

Rich Orr



-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:54 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] 40's era tank cars for sulfuric acid loading


Ed Grabek wrote:

In Arizona today along the Sunset route it is common to see strings
of tank cars labeled for sulfuric acid loading as they are a part of
copper smelting operations. I am modeling a portion of an SP
Branch serving a copper mine and smelting operation in Arizona as it
appeared in 1948 and I will need to model tank cars for that
purpose. My research so far has not turned up a clear view of a
common type of tank car for sulfuric acid loading in that era. I am
making the assumption that UTLX and possibly others had groups of
cars for that purpose that were simple variations of their more
common car types with modified domes and lined interiors for this
service but I haven't been able to find any definitive pictures or
drawings so far. Can anyone help me out?


You're right that acid cars were not tremendously different than

other ICC 103 tank cars, but not in the UTLX fleet. By 1948 UTL was

still heavily oriented to petroleum products and was just beginning to

provide other car types for lease. There are lots of photos of acid

cars built before 1948, for example the AC&F cars in both of Ed

Kaminski's books about AC&F. You will find VERY good photos of acid

cars, both privately owned and in the lease fleet of SHPX. GATX cars

likewise served this need well before 1948.

Are you sure that sulfuric acid was being reclaimed by copper

smelters in significant quantities by 1948? An awful lot of SO2 was

simply going up stacks in previous years. I really don't know when the

changeover occurred, but might guess it was later.



Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...

Publishers of books on railroad history







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Re: 40's era tank cars for sulfuric acid loading

Eric Hiser <ehiser@...>
 

Ed:
Smelters shipped more than just sulfuric acid in tank cars, but some
other liquids too. The smelter that I know best ships both acid (in
standard acid tank cars) and a process water stream in a larger car. So,
you may need more than just a single style.

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Edward
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 10:52 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] 40's era tank cars for sulfuric acid loading

In Arizona today along the Sunset route it is common to see strings of tank
cars labeled for sulfuric acid loading as they are a part of copper smelting
operations. I am modeling a portion of an SP Branch serving a copper mine
and smelting operation in Arizona as it appeared in 1948 and I will need to
model tank cars for that purpose. My research so far has not turned up a
clear view of a common type of tank car for sulfuric acid loading in that
era. I am making the assumption that UTLX and possibly others had groups of
cars for that purpose that were simple variations of their more common car
types with modified domes and lined interiors for this service but I haven't
been able to find any definitive pictures or drawings so far. Can anyone
help me out?

thank you

Ed Grabek



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Re: Boxcar sides loaded for shipping

Paul Lyons
 

Tom,

Sunshine did this as a load, I just saw one this last weekend whe Martin was at Sn Berdo.

Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Palmer <remlapmot@...>
To: STMFC Discussion Group <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sun, Mar 20, 2011 5:59 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Boxcar sides loaded for shipping




Good day Folks,
In the 1943 CBC on page 430 is a photo of an Erie gondola being loaded with boxcar sides for the CB&Q Havlock shops. Would anyone on the list have some other photos showing the way the car sides are packaged together and also anything showing how they are blocked in the car for shipment. I would like to recreate this load and my copies of AAR rules do not show this loading. It only shows boxcar doors.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you and best regards,

Tom Palmer
remlapmot@...
EarthLink Revolves Around You.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: New pix of Broadway NYC boxes

SUVCWORR@...
 

Gene,

It is right there on BLI's site under delivery schedule. Fourth item -- March, 2011. Which will probably pass without shipping as I have not received my bill, yet.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene <bierglaeser@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sun, Mar 20, 2011 5:25 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New pix of Broadway NYC boxes


--- In STMFC@..., "spsalso" <Edwardsutorik@...> wrote:

May I point out that Broadway has some new pictures of their NYC boxes on
heir site. They appear to be improved, but yet still fall far short of
xcellent. Myself, I prefer excellent.

Ed
Edward Sutorik
I seem to recall that BLI promised January 2011 delivery on these cars. Has
hat actually happened? Is more up-to-date information available?
couldn't find anything on the BLI website.
Gene Green


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Re: Boxcar sides loaded for shipping

Jim Hayes
 

This might help a little.
www.sunshinekits.com/suninst/instmk29.pdf

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com
*
*


On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 5:59 PM, Tom Palmer <remlapmot@...> wrote:



Good day Folks,
In the 1943 CBC on page 430 is a photo of an Erie gondola being loaded with
boxcar sides for the CB&Q Havlock shops. Would anyone on the list have some
other photos showing the way the car sides are packaged together and also
anything showing how they are blocked in the car for shipment. I would like
to recreate this load and my copies of AAR rules do not show this loading.
It only shows boxcar doors.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you and best regards,

Tom Palmer
remlapmot@...
EarthLink Revolves Around You.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Boxcar sides loaded for shipping

Tom Palmer
 

Good day Folks,
In the 1943 CBC on page 430 is a photo of an Erie gondola being loaded with boxcar sides for the CB&Q Havlock shops. Would anyone on the list have some other photos showing the way the car sides are packaged together and also anything showing how they are blocked in the car for shipment. I would like to recreate this load and my copies of AAR rules do not show this loading. It only shows boxcar doors.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you and best regards,


Tom Palmer
remlapmot@...
EarthLink Revolves Around You.


Re: New pix of Broadway NYC boxes

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 20, 2011, at 2:25 PM, Gene wrote:

I seem to recall that BLI promised January 2011 delivery on these
cars. Has that actually happened? Is more up-to-date information
available?
I couldn't find anything on the BLI website.
Gene, the latest information I have is that the NYC box cars will be
here in late summer.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Tennessee Central

Mitchell Mercante
 

Rich,
 
Steve Johnson is probably your best bet.  He monitors this list and may respond directly to you.  He's involved with the Tennessee Central Museum.
 
Regards,
 
Mitch Mercante

--- On Sun, 3/20/11, Richard Yoder <oscale48@...> wrote:


From: Richard Yoder <oscale48@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Tennessee Central
To: STMFC@...
Date: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 4:57 PM


I'm looking for someone that may have photos from the Tennessee Central
railroad.
If you know of someone please contact me.
Sincerely, Rich Yoder



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: New pix of Broadway NYC boxes

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

Hi, Gene. I found the date on their site, March 2011. The shop I do business with has also told me March, probably by the end of the month.
Norm Larkin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <bierglaeser@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 5:25 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New pix of Broadway NYC boxes


--- In STMFC@..., "spsalso" <Edwardsutorik@...> wrote:

May I point out that Broadway has some new pictures of their NYC boxes on their site. They appear to be improved, but yet still fall far short of excellent. Myself, I prefer excellent.

Ed
Edward Sutorik
I seem to recall that BLI promised January 2011 delivery on these cars. Has that actually happened? Is more up-to-date information available?
I couldn't find anything on the BLI website.

Gene Green




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Re: Ry Age

Tom Birkett <tnbirke@...>
 

Would anyone by any chance have the index to Railway Age in 1946? If so
please contact me off line
Thanks
Tom, Bartlesville

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