Date   

Re: Freight Car Statistics

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Tom Birkett" <tnbirke@...> wrote:
Either "Railway Age" or "Progressive Railroading" publishes this
information once a year.
Tom, Bartlesville
Wouldn't Progressive Railroading be far too recent for the purposes of anyone in this group? Wasn't Progressive Railroading first published in the 1980s?

As for Railway Age, that certainly covers the time period of this list and most assuredly mine. In which issue was this car age information? Was it in the issue that listed car, locomotive and passenger car purchases for the preceding year?

Gene Green


Re: Freight Car Statistics

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

More useful information. Thank you again, John.
gene Green


Re: Tooling

ken_olson54022 <kwolson@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Andy Harman" <gsgondola@...> wrote:

Anybody remember the Red Ball B&O wagon-top hopper? I still have one, untouched - if I
didn't ebay it. I think I bought it around 1978 or 79.
Don't forget that old excuse, "It's in pre-assembly staging".

Ken Olson


Re: Tooling

Andy Harman
 

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 09:31:59 -0500, Craig Zeni wrote
any material. I'd liken the H30 more to a Funaro kit in that it
takes a fair amount of fiddling and fussing to build well.
Well... I wasn't going to say the F word but since you did...

comments about blurry photos etc applied in spades, but Chris Z send
me more photos that proved invaluable, and I understand he's got
these available now.
If you're familiar with the prototype details, you may not even need to look at the
instructions. But in the case of the H30 and quite a few other things, I'm not, nor do
I have prototype detail shots to go on. It's one thing to hand somebody a pile of
sticks and say build an H30 (we call those Quality Craft kits), but to engineer a
complete combo styrene/etched kit and ask $40 for it - which is on the high side of RTR,
some more concise instructions would at least be nice. Again, perhaps not fair to
compare to Gene's, but then again, he proved it can be done... and for around the same $$.

Pad printed body colored styrene? Meh, not so much. Looks
plasticky.
I don't think the painting and lettering part are what's keeping folks from building
kits. That's my favorite part - partly because it's DONE, but also because it's where
you really get to see the final outcome of your efforts. Kits of mine that tend to
gather dust are the ones with ill-fitting parts, parts you can't tell the flash from the
parts, or instructions that lack a first step.

Anybody remember the Red Ball B&O wagon-top hopper? I still have one, untouched - if I
didn't ebay it. I think I bought it around 1978 or 79.

Andy


Re: Tooling

Craig Zeni
 

On Jan 24, 2011, at 8:35 PM, Dave Evans wrote:

Back to my original query - do modelers find the effort required to build the RailShops H30 to be significantly less than a resin car? If so, would the effort required be low enough that one would contemplate building 10-20 models if one was trying to expand a hopper fleet with a car not previously available to the modeler outside of brass and resin?

Would a kit with car body colored styrene and high quality pad printing increase the likelihood of building such kits. I suspect a car with larger market potential may be sold at lower cost than the H30.

Thanks,
Dave Evans
As one of the few people who've actually BUILT a Rail Shops H30 (<http://www.pbase.com/dh30973/image/131767257>), I can tell you that it depends on which resin kit you're comparing it to. It's significantly more work than a Rail Yard kit, simply because the Rail Yard kits go together better than damn near any kit you'll find of any material. I'd liken the H30 more to a Funaro kit in that it takes a fair amount of fiddling and fussing to build well. Andy's comments about blurry photos etc applied in spades, but Chris Z send me more photos that proved invaluable, and I understand he's got these available now. People eyeballing the kit are spooked by the etched parts - heck, that's the easy part. I found the hopper gates to be the most challenging as there's no alignment pins or grooves to get the parts in place; here the aid is that the kit is styrene and not resin so the builder's not hounded by having to get it right on with CA...there's some wiggle room with styrene cement softening the parts.

Pad printed body colored styrene? Meh, not so much. Looks plasticky. I'd much rather have well engineered kits I can build and paint myself, or ones that are well painted and lettered with paint that's easy to touch up. But that's just me :)




Craig Zeni

Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.


Forgotten Accurail Great Northern 2 Bay Canton Hopper

gary laakso
 

In all the discussion of twin hopper cars, no one as mentioned the strange choice by Accurail of the Great Northern "Canton" hopper. GN had 200 of them in the 73000-73199 series, purchased second hand after a re-building in 1929-1930. Overland Models imported 4 versions of this car: original, rapid discharge rebuild, zinc concentrate rebuild of 30 cars in 1957 and a version used in captive sand service. None of these Ajin models feature rivets on both sides of the 4 vertical braces installed on each side in the original re-build. Accurail captured the rivets in its plastic model.

Great Northern's other twin hopper series consisted of 500 cars in the 73200-73699 series purchased new in 1931 from Standard Steel. This makes the Accurail choice of the smallest class of hoppers on GN that had unique to it rebuild features all the more perplexing. It appears the the Sunshine Models Illinois Centrail hoppers cars are a very close match..... evil grin.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


Re: Paint

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis S. wrote:
Of course, some of those steak's ancestors must have ridden to Wisconsin in steam era stockcars... (Trying mightily to steer this back on topic :-)
Terrible pun, Dennis, terrible. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Tooling (was Re: AAR Standard twin offset side hopper with oval ends?)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

mike brock wrote:
Not so. Back in the previous century Jim Six claimed to have the "best" model of a 1958 Cu ft covered hopper ever built. Rising to the bait, I disagreed publicly...claiming that I did. As it turns out, Jim had built a Bowser car... I cheated by learning a neat trick by Jim...drill the holes for the grabs in the "ladders" before removing them. Anyhow, I made the replacement [hatch] mechanism operate. And, I changed out the hatches...making them operational as well.
I've seen Mike's car and it's indeed very nicely done--but this is somewhat beyond a discussion of what came with the original kit <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Tooling

Tim O'Connor
 

Rich, I don't think anyone but the manufacturers know the cost
of labor in China, but from every thing I have read about it, the
cost of labor there has skyrocketed compared to "a few years ago".

I did watch a news report this week about a Shanghai laborer (not
anything special) going home for the holidays. They mentioned he
made $500/month in Shanghai. That's got to be close to $3/hr! A few
years ago, I was reading about 40-50 cents/hr.

Some of Athearn's recent product announcements show a 74% year/year
increase for the exact same product.

Tim O'Connor

For what it is worth, the cost of assembling a RTR car is extremely small. A story related by one account rep the manufacturer for whom he works inquired about the cost of sending their tooling to China for producing kits. A price was quoted less shipping. The China factory rep then offered to assemble the cars for and additional 20 cents per car. This was a few years ago but nevertheless cost of assembly is not a major factor in the price. After tooling, the single largest cost is shipping from China. This assumes that research, advertising, shipping to distributors are constant regardless of where the cars are molded.

Rich Orr


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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File : /Final wedge.jpg
Uploaded by : losgatos48 <losgatos48@...>
Description : Southern Car & Foundry expects to release this O scale kit for the Canadian Pacific "minibox". Kit will feature custom decals, etched detail parts and one-piece body with a separate roof.

You can access this file at the URL:
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Regards,

losgatos48 <losgatos48@...>


Re: Freight Car Statistics

Tom Birkett <tnbirke@...>
 

Either "Railway Age" or "Progressive Railroading" publishes this
information once a year.

Tom, Bartlesville


Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight Car Statistics






--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Gene"
<bierglaeser@...> wrote:

Does anyone know of a source for the average age by year of freight
cars in interchange?

Gene,

I suspect what you are after is American Railway Car Institute data.

FWIW, Inside the back cover of the '49-'51 Carbuilders' Cyclopedia is
the following data from ARCI for freight cars owned by class I RR's in
1947.

A - 1-5 yrs
B - 6-15 yrs
C - 16-34 yrs
D - 35+ yrs

Boxcars:
A - 89,569
B - 178,553
C - 431,288
D - 33,222

Gondolas:
A - 29,575
B - 59,224
C - 170,383
D - 56,564

Hoppers:
A - 72,851
B - 115,129
C - 244,858
D - 106,368

Flat Cars:
A - 6,284
B - 9,833
C - 24,031
D - 10,995

Stock Cars:
A - 500
B - 2,791
C - 38,289
D - 10,326

Tank Cars:
A - 3
B - 653
C - 4,330
D - 3,545

Refrigerators:
A - 445
B - 1,738
C - 17,165
D - 374

John Nehrich had a data table with ARCI data in his old printed NEB&W
freight car guides. Give me a few more minutes and I will recap that
data as well.

John Hile


Re: Freight Car Statistics

John Hile
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

Does anyone know of a source for the average age by year of freight cars in interchange?







Gene,

As promised, here is a recap of the data in the old NEB&W guide. It is ARCI data for four years, all freight cars owned by Class I railroads in interchange service. Let me say that the bar chart is scaled in 40,000 car increments, there are no intermediate division lines, and it is reproduced in a rather small scale. I am estimating using an engineer's scale, so I'd say there is an error factor of +/- 1,000 or so.

A - 1906 and older
B - 1906 - 1910
C - 1911 - 1915
D - 1916 - 1920
E - 1921 - 1925
F - 1926 - 1930
G - 1931 - 1935
H - 1936 - 1940
I - 1941 - 1945
J - 1946 - 1950
K - 1951 - 1955
L - 1956 - 1960

Jan 1, 1946:
A - 42,000
B - 130,000
C - 160,000
D - 244,000
E - 395,000
F - 315,000
G - 45,000
H - 205,000
I - 239,000
J,K,L - n/a

Jan 1, 1951
A - 20,000
B - 60,000
C - 78,000
D - 155,000
E - 324,000
F - 305,000
G - 44,000
H - 202,000
I - 237,000
J - 305,000
K,L - n/a

Jan 1, 1956
A - 5,000
B - 35,000
C - 41,000
D - 75,000
E - 230,000
F - 266,000
G - 43,000
H - 197,000
I - 232,000
J - 302,000
K - 266,000
L - n/a

Jan 1, 1961
A - 1,000
B - 16,000
C - 25,000
D - 37,000
E - 110,000
F - 186,000
G - 40,000
H - 188,000
I - 225,000
J - 298,000
K - 265,000
L - 266,000


Hope this is helpful,

-John Hile


Re: Tooling (was Re: AAR Standard twin offset side hopper with oval ends?)

SUVCWORR@...
 

For what it is worth, the cost of assembling a RTR car is extremely small. A story related by one account rep the manufacturer for whom he works inquired about the cost of sending their tooling to China for producing kits. A price was quoted less shipping. The China factory rep then offered to assemble the cars for and additional 20 cents per car. This was a few years ago but nevertheless cost of assembly is not a major factor in the price. After tooling, the single largest cost is shipping from China. This assumes that research, advertising, shipping to distributors are constant regardless of where the cars are molded.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Evans <devans1@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, Jan 24, 2011 4:55 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Tooling (was Re: AAR Standard twin offset side hopper with oval ends?)


--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

I have a few questions about making new models.
Let us assume that the model will be sold RTR (no kits).
Let us also assume that the model will be a hopper car (as discussed) with
"moderate" sales (I don't know how many "moderate" is, but let's say 20,000

units).

Which would be cheaper:
1: A full multi-slide injection molded plastic model, assembled with wire
grabs, etc.

2: An injection-molded "flat-kit" model, assembled, and with wire grabs, etc.
(Lower tooling cost, higher assembly cost).

3: A resin model, assembled, and with wire grabs, etc. (Extremely low tooling
cost, higher molding cost (?), much (?) higher assembly cost).

Snip

Regards,
-Jeff
Jeff,



A good summary of the options.



From what I gathered at Prototype rails, the lower tooling costs of door number

2 would provide total savings over method 1 at 20k units - I think extra labor

assembly would be less than what sounds like $60k more in tooling for method 1.



Selection 2 also entails lower risk - because tooling is much less, if sales do

not reach 20k units, the loss would be much smaller than if option 1 was

attempted and sales fell short. If sales are falling short for option 2 then one

can more readily limit their losses by simply making fewer models. That option

is not as viable for option 1 - you are all in when the tooling is complete and

test shots are approved.



Method 2 could also be sold in kit form, which might appeal to some of the

members of this group, especially if key spotting features could be readily

changed (for example, a flat kit of the PRR H21a hopper would not require a

large cost in new tooling to make a PRR H25.)



For an alternate standard offset hopper that was at the start of this thread,

the tooling cost for different height sides and ends would not be that severe if

other mold parts could be re-used (center sill, bolster, hopper bottom). Other

variations may also be possible at reasonable cost (which means smaller runs

would be viable).



I did not have any discussions about option 3 - I just can't imagine that enough

skilled labor can be found at low enough prices to make Resin work unless unit

prices were high and runs were relatively small.



Dave Evans







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Re: Freight Car Statistics

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Thank you, John. That is exactly what I was looking for - right time - right data - just what I needed.

It is my intention to let this sort of information influence my freight car roster. I have other criteria but I'll let this show the way when there are choices to be made.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., "john66h" <john66h@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@> wrote:

Does anyone know of a source for the average age by year of freight cars in interchange?






Gene,

I suspect what you are after is American Railway Car Institute data.

FWIW, Inside the back cover of the '49-'51 Carbuilders' Cyclopedia is the following data from ARCI for freight cars owned by class I RR's in 1947.

John Hile


Tooling (was Re: AAR Standard twin offset side hopper with oval ends?)

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., Andy Harman <gsgondola@...> wrote:


I would say similar to a resin car. I haven't built a lot of resin, but
the H30 isn't going to go together as quickly as even some of the more
involved styrene kits. I'm quite certain I could build an Intermountain
1958 in less time. I would balk at building a fleet of H-30s... my current
plans call for two.

Andy
Andy and everyone,

Many thanks for all the great info - I regret that I seem to have hi-jacked the original topic (Alt std AAR offset) - my apologies to those that started it.

Seems like a method for economically producing a small run of high quality cars for fleet building may be a bridge too far. Unless you can place a billboard or flag on it ;-)

Best wishes to all those manufacturers who agonize over this every day!

Many thanks,
Dave Evans


Re: Paint

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bill Schneider" <bschneider424@...> wrote:

Drag racing is all about power to weight...

He must have had one hell of car..!

Bill Schneider
He certainly added weight, which would have improved the adhesion...

Being invited to a barbecue at Greg's was an experience not soon forgotten. It's the only place I was ever introduced to my steak before it was cooked. Greg brought out a platter loaded with about thirty pounds of meat, and asked which steak I'd like to partner with :-)

(Straying even farther off topic and packing my overnight jail bag...)
Of course, some of those steak's ancestors must have ridden to Wisconsin in steam era stockcars... (Trying mightily to steer this back on topic :-)

Dennis


Re: AAR Standard twin offset side hopper with oval ends?

Bill Schneider
 

The Canadians have sent their air here to Connecticut Chuck!

Bill

In Higganum,. Ct at a balmy 8 degrees above.
That’s 12 degrees WARMER than it was this morning when I got up to frozen car door locks...
... and 68 degrees colder than todays high in Cocoa Beach... ;<(

From: RUTLANDRS@...
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 9:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: AAR Standard twin offset side hopper with oval ends?


That happens when you keep sniffing that Canadian air, brrrrrrrrr
Chuck Hladik


In a message dated 1/24/2011 9:19:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mailto:bschneider424%40comcast.net writes:

Speel Chek is a horible thig..

That should have been “graciously”, not “gratuitously”... I think... ;.)

Bill

From: Bill Schneider
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 9:04 PM
To: mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com)
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: AAR Standard twin offset side hopper with oval
ends?

Oh great, its out now.... Oh well....

Regarding the “In your dreams...”, I would prefer to insert my own
Richard quote here...

Some... well.. several... years ago I was having a particularly hard time
having things... work out to my satisfaction. I confided on the phone one
afternoon to Richard that I would soon be writing a book entitled “So... You
Want To Be A Model Railroad Manufacturer”, to which he gratuitously (?!)
replied that he would be happy to write the forward, entitled “I told you
so...”

Bill Schneider

From: Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 8:45 PM
To: mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: AAR Standard twin offset side hopper with oval
ends?

Aha! So Rapido is finally going to do the UP’s slab-sided hoppers! Mike
Brock and I are glad, very glad.

[Insert Richard Hendrickson’s oft-repeated, “In your dreams” here.]

-Jeff

From: mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Schneider
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:44 PM
To: mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: AAR Standard twin offset side hopper with oval
ends?

Ah, but an “unglamourous coal hopper” might be... just not this one.

Bill Schneider





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Freight Car Statistics

John Hile
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

Does anyone know of a source for the average age by year of freight cars in interchange?






Gene,

I suspect what you are after is American Railway Car Institute data.

FWIW, Inside the back cover of the '49-'51 Carbuilders' Cyclopedia is the following data from ARCI for freight cars owned by class I RR's in 1947.

A - 1-5 yrs
B - 6-15 yrs
C - 16-34 yrs
D - 35+ yrs

Boxcars:
A - 89,569
B - 178,553
C - 431,288
D - 33,222

Gondolas:
A - 29,575
B - 59,224
C - 170,383
D - 56,564

Hoppers:
A - 72,851
B - 115,129
C - 244,858
D - 106,368

Flat Cars:
A - 6,284
B - 9,833
C - 24,031
D - 10,995

Stock Cars:
A - 500
B - 2,791
C - 38,289
D - 10,326

Tank Cars:
A - 3
B - 653
C - 4,330
D - 3,545

Refrigerators:
A - 445
B - 1,738
C - 17,165
D - 374

John Nehrich had a data table with ARCI data in his old printed NEB&W freight car guides. Give me a few more minutes and I will recap that data as well.

John Hile


Re: Tooling (was Re: AAR Standard twin offset side hopper with oval ends?)

mike brock <brockm@...>
 

Tony Thompson writes:

And the ECW
covered hopper was SO crude, I'd guess it only sold (including to me)
because it was the first "real" kit for square-hatch cars. Only a
collector could love one today <g>.
Not so. Back in the previous century Jim Six claimed to have the "best" model of a 1958 Cu ft covered hopper ever built. Rising to the bait, I disagreed publicly...claiming that I did. As it turns out, Jim had built a Bowser car...a somewhat better model than ECW's. He had also removed all the grabs, drops and other details and applied brass ones. I thought...hmmm...having only the UP version of a CH-70-1 by E&B Valley [ predecessor to ECW ]. So, I cheated by learning a neat trick by Jim...drill the holes for the grabs in the "ladders" before removing them. The strength of the heavy plastic grabs helps during drilling. I then removed the car's hatch mechanism...each hatch has 2 tongs <?> [ on the UP car ] that swing up and apparently help keep the hatch closed. Anyhow, I made the replacement mechanism operate. And, I changed out the hatches...making them operational as well. So...when Jim showed up in Cocoa Beach at an NMRA SSR convention in the late 90's, I rolled my car out...swung the hatch mechanism open, opened a few of the hatches and asked him what he was gonna put in his car. I have to admit that I was smart enough to not fix the bottom "doors" so that I could dump the contents...I could imagine dumping stuff out for yrs as the car wandered about. Oh...it DOES have 70 ton trucks under it..

Incidentally, I plan to replace the mech on my UP Intermountain cars with an operating system. They need 2 "tongs" anyhow instead of the single one on the Intermountain car.

Mike Brock...who loves his CH-70-1


Re: Paint

Bill Schneider
 

Drag racing is all about power to weight...

He must have had one hell of car..!

Bill Schneider

(Straying even farther off topic and packing my overnight jail bag...)

From: mike brock
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 9:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Paint


Andy Harman says:

On the other hand, I saw up close some of the sample locos that GK had
been using in his
ads for his paint. When I actually saw the quality of the finish - one of
them had
paint peeling off the walkways, the other looked like it had been blasted
with Krylon
from a fire hose, rolled in salt, and blasted again, the idea of
"learning" anything
quickly vanished.
I never actually saw one of Greg's paint jobs. My interest was his comment
that, coming from Wisconsin, he was amazed to see the amount of water that
was produced by a compressor in Florida in the summer [ Late April through
early Nov ]. And...he was right. His other claim to fame was the story about
the drag racer who apparently used nitroglycerin as part of his energy
source. Greg was into serious drag racing...which is in itself curious since
he must have weighed about 350 lbs at the time...

Mike Brock...straying a bit from frt cars...





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