I cut it off and replaced it with sheet and strip stock for mine.

Jerry Glow

I seem to recall this topic has come up before and that the answer at that
time was the car "rested" along with the livestock until such time the
lading was delivered to the consignee. At that point the mty was handled
per car service rules (which often meant mty the whole way).

Dave Nelson

The question about whether stock would be unloaded from one car for rest and
watering, then loaded onto another road's car for further movement, was
discussed in detail on some list recently; I thought it was this one, but
perhaps not. At any rate, it was established that the >common< procedure
was to reload the stock back into the same car they arrived in, but that in
the meantime, while the stock was being rested and watered, the car would
also be cleaned out and resupplied with fresh bedding, water and whatever
else the stock required for the rest of the journey. Only in the event of a
car failing some inspection and being taken out of service would the stock
be reloaded into another line's cars.



When you think about it, this only makes sense, as the cars required a "rest
stop" as much as the stock did.

SGL

Dave

It's a good question. I don't know about livestock flows, but it does
seem to me that many urban stockyards were far larger than required for
the local market (i.e. slaughterhouses). So I assume that the largest
stockyards like Omaha, KC, Chicago, Denver were intermediate points for
stock to be SOLD either to slaughterhouses, or to brokers. And if they
were sold to brokers, then wouldn't they be shipped on a new bill of
lading to another stockyard? But railroad stock pens like Laramie WY
or places like that probably were for resting and feeding only, and
the livestock probably were reloaded into the same cars on the same
bill of lading.

The 28 hour rule limited the distance that could be covered between
rests -- maybe 500 miles (e.g. Omaha-Chicago) on a good day.

Which doesn't really explain foreign stock cars, does it? :-) Just be
mindful that not all stock cars were loaded with livestock. Some might
be loaded with lumber, or fresh tomatoes (PRR short hauls to Campbells
in Camden NJ), or even coal!

Tim O'Connor

-------------------------------------

I do not want to re-open the entire fleet balance debate, but I have not

yet researched what a viable mix of stock cars would be on a PRR stock train
(e.g. Man-of-war) in central Pennsylvania (after resting the east bound
animals at Herr Island in Pittsburgh).

I guess the generic question is, once a stock car is loaded with stock that

is destined for a specific location, could that car be replaced when the
stock was removed for rest/feeding/car cleaning at an intermediate location,
or would the car and its stock go all the way to the destination?

I would think this would govern whether western road stock cars make it

east of Herr Island. I need to start identifying what models to buy.

Are there any era dependencies? I am modeling WWII.

Thanks,
Dave Evans

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Dave

It's a good question. I don't know about livestock flows, but it does
seem to me that many urban stockyards were far larger than required for
the local market (i.e. slaughterhouses). So I assume that the largest
stockyards like Omaha, KC, Chicago, Denver were intermediate points for
stock to be SOLD either to slaughterhouses, or to brokers. And if they
were sold to brokers, then wouldn't they be shipped on a new bill of
lading to another stockyard? But railroad stock pens like Laramie WY
or places like that probably were for resting and feeding only, and
the livestock probably were reloaded into the same cars on the same
bill of lading.

The 28 hour rule limited the distance that could be covered between
rests -- maybe 500 miles (e.g. Omaha-Chicago) on a good day.

Which doesn't really explain foreign stock cars, does it? :-) Just be
mindful that not all stock cars were loaded with livestock. Some might
be loaded with lumber, or fresh tomatoes (PRR short hauls to Campbells
in Camden NJ), or even coal!

Tim O'Connor

-------------------------------------

On March 14th I sent the following to the "Railway Bull Shippers" Group that I belong to.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The book that I found is called, "Report of the Federal Trade Commission on the Meat Packing Industry, Part III, Methods of the Five Packers in Controlling the Meat-Packing Industry, June 28, 1919."

Starting on page 279 is a section called, "Territories From Which Stockyards Receive Animals."

This is a very important list if you plan on routing livestock for operations on your layout. And even though this is a 1919 list, I wouldn't think much changed for a long time since this list does not differentiate between livestock being moved by rail or by truck.

Here is the list:
* Augusta Union Stock Yards, Augusta, GA:
- Principal receipts, hogs from TN and GA

* Belt Railroad & Stock Yards Co, Indianapolis, IN:
- All receipts from OH, KY, IN and IL

* Birmingham Stock Yards, Birmingham AL:
- Receipts of all kinds from the southern part of AL

* Bourbon Stock Yards, Louisville KY:
- Cattle, calves, hogs and sheep from KY, TN, IN, AL, FL and GA

* Brighton Stock Yards, Brighton MA:
- New England States and NY

* Central Union Stock Yards, Jersey City NJ:
- Receipts of cattle from OH, VA, WV, KY, IL, NE, OK, MI, KS, PA, NY, NJ and Canada
- Calves from OH, VA, KY, IL, MI and NY
- Hogs from OH, VA, KY and TN
- Sheep from IL, VA, WV, KY, OH, MI, KS and NJ

* Cincinnati Union Stock Yards Co, Cincinnati OH:
-Receipts of all kinds of stock from OH, IN, IL, KY and TN

* Cleveland Union Stock Yards Co, Cleveland OH:
- Receipts of all kinds of stock from IN, MI, IL and OH

* Crescent City Stock Yards & Slaughter House Co, Ltd, Arabi LA:
- Receipts of all kinds of stock from LA, MS, AL, GA, and TX

* Denver Union Stock Yards Co Denver CO:
- Receipts of cattle and calves from CO, NE, NM, WY, IA, TX, UT and AZ
- Hogs from CO, NE, IA, TX and KS
- Sheep from CO, NM, WY, UT, TX, AZ, IA, KS and NE

* Detroit Stock Yards, Detroit MI:
- Receipts of all kinds from MI, IN and OH

* East Tennessee Stock Yards of Knoxville TN:
- Receipts of all kinds from TN

* El Paso Union Stock Yards of El Paso TX:
- Receipts of all kinds from TX, NM, AZ and CA

* Fort Worth Stock Yards, Fort Worth TX:
- Receipts of all kinds from TX, OH, NM, AZ and LA

* Fostoria Stock Yards, Fostoria OH:
- Receipts of all kinds from OH, MN, MO, IL and NE

* Foust-Yarnell Stock Yards Co, Chattanooga TN:
- Receipts of all kinds from TN, AL and GA

* Interstate Stock Yards of Jacksonville FL:
- Cattle and calves from FL, GA, AL, TN and TX
- Hogs and sheep from FL, GA and AL

* Jersey City Stock Yards, Jersey City NJ:
- Receipts of all kinds from NY, NJ, PA, DE, VA, WV, KY, TN, NC, SC, GA and Western markets

* Kansas City Stock Yards, Kansas City MO:
- Cattle and calves from KS, MO, NE, OK, TN and CO
- Hogs from KS, MO, NE, OK, IA and AR
- Sheep from CO, MO, KS, AZ, NM, OK and UT

* La Fayette Union Stock Yards, La Fayette IN:
- Receipts of all kinds from IN

* Miller Union Stock Yards of Atlanta GA:
- Receipts of all kinds from FL, SC, AL, GA, TN and KY

* Milwaukee Stock Yards Co, Milwaukee WI:
- Receipts of all kinds from IA, MN and WI

* New York Central Stock Yards Co, Buffalo NY:
- Receipts of all kinds from NY, OH, IL, IN, MI and Canada

* New York Stock Yards Co, New York NY:
- Receipts of all kinds from Western, Central and Eastern States and Canada

* Ogden Union Stock Yards Co, Ogden UT:
- Receipts of all kinds from UT, ID, NV, WY, MT and CA

* Oklahoma National Stock Yards, Oklahoma City OK:
- Cattle and calves from OK
- Hogs and sheep from OK, TX, NM and AR

* Peoria Union Stock Yards, Peoria IL:
- Cattle from IL, IA and MN
- Calves from IL and IA
- Hogs from IA and IL
- Sheep from IL

* Pittsburg Union Stock Yards Co, Pittsburgh PA:
- Receipts of all kinds from OH, IN, IL, WV and KY

* Richmond Union Stock Yards Co, Richmond VA:
- Cattle and hogs from VA, NC, SC, WV, KY, TN and GA
- Calves from VA, NC, SC, TN and GA
- Sheep from VA, NC, SC, KY, TN, WV and GA

* St Joseph Stock Yards Co, St Joseph MO:
- Cattle from AZ, CO, ID, IL, IA, KS, MN, MO, MT, NE, NM, OK, OR, SD, TX, UT, WI and WY
- Calves from CO, ID, IA, KS, MN, MO, MT, NE, NM, OK, SD, TX, UT, WY, AZ, IL and WI
- Hogs from CO, ID, IA, KS, MN, MO, MT, NE, NM, OK, SD, TX, UT, WY
- Sheep from AZ, CA, CO, ID, IA, KS, MO, MT, NE, NM, NV, OK, OR, SD, TX, UT and WY

* St Louis National Stock Yards Co, National City IL:
- Receipts of all kinds from IL, IA, KS, MO and all Southwestern states

* St Paul Union Stock Yards Co, South St Paul MN:
- Receipts of all kinds from MN, IA, MI, WI, SD, ND, MT and Canada

* Salt Lake Union Stock Yards, North Salt Lake, UT:
- Cattle, calves and sheep from intermountain section, transit from CA
- Hogs from UT and ID

* Sioux City Stock Yards Co, Sioux City IA:
- Cattle and calves from IA, SD, MN, NE and ND
- Hogs from IA, SD, MN and NE
- Sheep from IA, SD, ND, MN, MT, WY, NV, ID, CO and NE

* Spokane Union Stock Yards, Spokane WA:
- Cattle, calves and hogs from WA, ID and MT
- Sheep from WA, ID, MT and OR

* Toledo Union Stock Yards, Toledo OH:
- Receipts of all kinds from OH, IN, IL and MI

* Union Stock Yards and Terminal Co, Chicago IL:
- Receipts of all kinds from most of the states, principally IA, IL, WI, MO, IN, SD, MT and MN

* Union Stock Yards, Nashville TN:
- Receipts of all kinds from TN, AL and GA
- Horses and mules from Western states

* Union Stock Yards Co, Omaha NE:
- Cattle and calves from AZ, CA, CO, ID, IL, IA, KS, NE, NM, NV, ND, OR, SD, TX, UT, MN, MO, WY, WA, OH, WI, IN, OK, MT and Canada
- Hogs from OR, SD, CA, CO, ID, IL, IA, KS, MN, MO, UT, WY, WA, MT, NE and NV
- Sheep the same as cattle, omitting OH, IN, OK and WI

* Union Stock Yards, San Antonio TX:
- Receipts of all kinds from TX

* Union Stock Yards, Seattle WA:
- Receipts of all kinds from MT, ID, OR, WA, CA and Canada

* Union Stock Yards, Dayton OH:
- Receipts of all kinds from OH, IN and KY

* Union Stock Yards, Evansville IN:
- Receipts of all kinds from IN, IL and KY

* Union Stock Yards Co, Baltimore MD:
- Cattle from IL, VA, WV, PA, MD, TN, KY, NC, SC and GA
- Calves from VA, WV, PA, TN and MD
- Hogs from IL, OH, TN, VA, WV, PA, MD and KY
- Sheep from IL, NY, OH, WV, VA, KY and MD

* West Philadelphia Stock Yards Co, Philadelphia PA:
- Cattle from PA, DE, MD, VA, WV, OH, IN, IL, KY, NJ, TN, KS, CO and NE
- Calves from PA, DE, MD, KY, OH, IN, IL and KS
- Sheep from PA, MD, OH, IL, VA, WV and IN

* Western Stock Yards, Amarillo TX:
- Cattle and calves from CA, NM, AZ and TX
- Hogs from NM, AZ and TX
- Sheep (not listed)

* Wichita Union Stock Yards Co, Wichita KS:
- Cattle, calves, hogs and sheep from KS, OK, TX and NM

----------------------------------
I hope this helps.
- Steve Hedlund, Silver Lake, WA




To: STMFC@...
From: devans1@...
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:15:09 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Foreign Road Stock Cars (was Re: Pacemaker boxcar usage off-line of NYC)






--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn <tgregmrtn@...> wrote:

Snip...

I try as hard as I can not to model the odd or unique car when I should be modeling tons of home road cars unless they were a regular occurrence like a UP S-40-10 in a stock car mix on the PRR. It is tempting and I do it but I generally regret it later.

Greg Martin

Greg,

I do not want to re-open the entire fleet balance debate, but I have not yet researched what a viable mix of stock cars would be on a PRR stock train (e.g. Man-of-war) in central Pennsylvania (after resting the east bound animals at Herr Island in Pittsburgh).

I guess the generic question is, once a stock car is loaded with stock that is destined for a specific location, could that car be replaced when the stock was removed for rest/feeding/car cleaning at an intermediate location, or would the car and its stock go all the way to the destination?

I would think this would govern whether western road stock cars make it east of Herr Island. I need to start identifying what models to buy.

Are there any era dependencies? I am modeling WWII.

Thanks,
Dave Evans





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill Pardie:

You might refer to Ted Culotta's article on the P&LE cars in RMC
several years ago. He replaced the roof on the car that he did.

Sorry I do not have the date of the magazine handy. It was in the
Essential Freight Car Series.

July 2004, EFC #14 on USRA 50-ton SS boxcars. Ted replaced the Tichy roof with one of the ubiquitous IMWX/RC rectangular panel roofs but it was still a P&LE car. The ACL and SL-SF variations Charlie is considering take a different roof, but it _is_ an excellent article.

Tom Madden

--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn <tgregmrtn@...> wrote:

Snip...

I try as hard as I can not to model the odd or unique car when I should be modeling tons of home road cars unless they were a regular occurrence like a UP S-40-10 in a stock car mix on the PRR. It is tempting and I do it but I generally regret it later.

Greg Martin

Greg,

I do not want to re-open the entire fleet balance debate, but I have not yet researched what a viable mix of stock cars would be on a PRR stock train (e.g. Man-of-war) in central Pennsylvania (after resting the east bound animals at Herr Island in Pittsburgh).

I guess the generic question is, once a stock car is loaded with stock that is destined for a specific location, could that car be replaced when the stock was removed for rest/feeding/car cleaning at an intermediate location, or would the car and its stock go all the way to the destination?

I would think this would govern whether western road stock cars make it east of Herr Island. I need to start identifying what models to buy.

Are there any era dependencies? I am modeling WWII.

Thanks,
Dave Evans

There are some things I read that I have great trouble believing.

It's probably not my concern, since it's unlikely that one of these cars ever came down my branch and it's another order of magnitude unlikely that I would ever build a model of one. But what, pray tell, was built in 1931 that these cars could have been built out of? I'll buy the idea that MDT provided these cars, but physically rebuilt to look like that, and be the same dimensions as a new-built fifties house car? I'd love to hear more.

Ron Merrick

Charlie:

You might refer to Ted Culotta's article on the P&LE cars in RMC
several years ago.
He replaced the roof on the car that he did.

Sorry I do not have the date of the magazine handy. It was in the
Essentail Freightr
Car Series.

Good Luck:

Bill Pardie


On Mar 18, 2011, at 8:10 AM, Charlie D modeling the Mopac http://mopac51.tripod
wrote:

Jerry - if I can sand off the Tichy kit's roof without too much
damage I'll use the new Frisco decals you just sent me. I'd rather
have a Frisco car than another P&LE on the layout.

Charlie Duckworth

--- In STMFC@..., jerryglow@... wrote:

If it's unbuilt it makes a good basis for a Frisco 8 panel USRA

rebuild from a DS car. I just did decals for it in 3 versions (with
and w/o "Lines" in a small herald and large herald with Frisco Fast
Freight on the right. The latter started being applied approx late
'52 with possibility of the others esp w/o "Lines" in '54.

The ACL set is also good for the same bash.

Jerry Glow
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/decals.html

--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@> wrote:

Unfortunately, these cars were never relettered for NYC, and

other NYC rebuilt boxcars differed in height and ends. However,
Sunshine did mini-kits (Jim Hayes Number "MK-15B", consisting of
ends, center sill, decals) converting this model to Wabash
82000-82513 boxcars equipped with auto racks. This conversion could
also be the basis for similar Wabash DS boxcar rebuilds - see my
rebuilt boxcar spreadsheet in the files section for more Wabash
possibilities.

Ben Hom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jerry - if I can sand off the Tichy kit's roof without too much damage I'll use the new Frisco decals you just sent me. I'd rather have a Frisco car than another P&LE on the layout.

Charlie Duckworth

That man's last name was Rzaza. Bob Rzaza, I think. Possibly not that
spelling, but I think that's correct, and it was more like five or six years
ago. Time flies, Pat!

SGL



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Patrick Wilkinson
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:44 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: William Raia Contact Info





Isn't this the same guy who owned Custom Finishing Models or something
similar-they made all those white metal M.O.W. kits?

If it is I am pretty sure he died a year or so ago.

Pat Wilkinson










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Cosidering our era of interest is more than half a century in the rear view mirror, I suspect many of us will need Pacemakers of one form or another before too long. And we should _hope_ they never go off-line!

Tom Madden

Young modeler: How do you like my coalporter?

Old modeler: OK, but Gershwin was better.

Just to add some more to the picture:

The series 174000-174999 is listed in the 1953, 1955, 1959, and 1963
Equipment Registers with 50,000 lbs capacity! So as Richard said, even
if the cars occasionally went offline (a fact) the cars were clearly in
very restricted service.

The entire series is almost fully populated (nearly 1,000 cars) in the
1953, 1955, and 1959 ORER's -- but drops to 7 cars in 1963!! So clearly
the NYC either got rid of the cars between 1959 and 1963, or reassigned
them to another series.

However, the series 175025-175999 which I think were also Lot 737-B are
all listed with 110,000 lbs capacity. And this series remained populated
in the 1963 and 1965 ORER's. It makes me think that the "Pacemaker" cars
174000-174999 were somehow quite different. Was it just the trucks, or
some other factor?

Tim O'Connor

--------------------------------

OK. (Thanks, Ben!) So presuming the caption's accurate, it follows that these cars indeed wandered off-line, in violation of the rules, at least occasionally. To judge whether it was very rare or less so, I'd need to study a big stack of wheel reports or conductor's books. Gut feeling: modelling a Seaboard branch in Florida in 1949, I don't want one of these. I like my weird exceptions to be subtle enough that operators don't notice them.
Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Thanks Ned. Although built originally in 1931, these cars obviously were
rebuilt with new doors and ends, and probably roofs. A "normal" SRE roof of
this period would be a diagonal panel, but it's possible that some other
type of roof was used; it's possible they retained the original roof too.

Tim O'Connor

If it's unbuilt it makes a good basis for a Frisco 8 panel USRA rebuild from a DS car. I just did decals for it in 3 versions (with and w/o "Lines" in a small herald and large herald with Frisco Fast Freight on the right. The latter started being applied approx late '52 with possibility of the others esp w/o "Lines" in '54.

The ACL set is also good for the same bash.

Jerry Glow
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/decals.html

OK. (Thanks, Ben!) So presuming the caption's accurate, it follows that these cars indeed wandered off-line, in violation of the rules, at least occasionally. To judge whether it was very rare or less so, I'd need to study a big stack of wheel reports or conductor's books. Gut feeling: modelling a Seaboard branch in Florida in 1949, I don't want one of these. I like my weird exceptions to be subtle enough that operators don't notice them.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Al Brown wrote:
"'I seek wisdom: does the car in Sisk's photo conform to the
requirements, or not?"

It does not.  The dead giveaway is the lack of dimensional data and LT WT
stencil.


Ben Hom

James Yaworsky wrote:
"Disclaimer: as a NYC-focused modeler, I like to see manufacturers release
NYC-specific models. And this will happen more often, the more NYC-specific
models they sell. So, yes, nothing would make me happier than to know that every

member of this list got at least one of the Intermountain cars being released...

The two most "famous" NYC pieces of equipment are probably Dreyfus Hudsons, and
Pacemaker boxcars. Well, you can't justify a Dreyfus Hudson on your layout
unless you *are* modeling the NYC - but you CAN justify a Pacemaker car..."

Hate to say it, James, but this state of affairs ain't going to happen until
NYC-focused modelers come out and actively support NYC-specific freight cars,
mot only through sales, but through demonstrating through publishing research
showing why NYC freight car prototypes are important, and actively pushing
prototypes through product development and cooperation with the manufacutrers. 
A major resin manufacturer has been quoted as saying sales at the NYCSHS Anuual
Meeting were his worst at any historical society meeting.  Why should the rest
of us get excited when the NYC guys aren't excited about their own products?

None of this appears to be of any interest to the NYCSHS - the flyer for this
year's Society's Annual Meeting in Albany advertises two O-Scale Tinplate
layouts as being open for business, while lacking any of the Capital District's
notable layouts (and there are at least several nationally-known layouts).  I'll
bet that there was little or no support provided by NYCSHS to the BLI NYC
USRA-design steel boxcar - the single most lacking model boxcar on any HO-scale
steam era layout.

With all due respect to Jeff English, Roger Hinman, and Terry Link, I just don't
see a whole lot of action from the NYC crowd.  Ask yourself, James - why is
there so much available for the PRR models, and so little available for the NYC?


Ben Hom

Ned Carey wrote:

I am Building a Sunshine D&H numbers 19500-20899, 21000-22399. Can anyone direct me to photos? Perhaps Focus on Freight Cars #2 which I need to buy? I am especially interested in one with the Indestructable end.

Ned,

Are you referring to the three panel reverse Hutchins end, or the reinforced Burnett end?

I have several shots on my website (all images in the public domain). Here's a link to a pic of 22962 (from my site) with the Hutchins end.

http://mattforsyth.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/22962_1.jpg

I can also make a .pdf of the entire Nehrich/Yungkurth article available to you off-list.

Contact me directly and let me know...


Matt Forsyth

Modeling the D&H Penn Division
Erie Jefferson Division
in Proto 5-0, Summer of 1952

John,
Building and operating a prototype layout has made me into a much more disciplined buyer. Seems most cars I've bought on impulse are now gone or I'm thinking about selling.
My fleet stands at 138 operating models and 5 unbuild kits.

I still have my weak moments. Last summer I bought an IM ATSF WE box car RTR at the National Train Show because it was cheap. I then spent time repainting parts, adding decals, changing some appliances and still the base car of the car is wrong!
Last Naperville I bought one of those Sunshine multi-door D&RGW box cars because it was cool looking. Only to find in my documentation I should have bought the 6' door car…I guess I'll build it anyway…

Thanks for sharing your thoughts John : ))
Clark Propst