Dennis Storzek wrote:

Boy, I sure hope I didn't start this, because I in no way intended to say the bottom outlet was never used, only that the common unloading apparatus at oil jobbers of the period was set up for suction unloading through the dome. One of the reasons was likely that since the common oil storage tank was above grade, a pump was going to be involved anyway, and suction unloading was likely faster.

Dennis, I haven't tried to look at Midwestern practices, but the photos I have, both historic ones and ones I took myself, of California bulk oil dealers are mostly bottom unloading. I take your point about pumping, but maybe it was a regional preference or had some other basis. (Maybe the Coriolis force is bigger in California . . . or something <g>.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Ed Mines wrote:

The bottom valves on steam era tank cars are way too small to allow
the car to be emptied in a timely manner.

Where do you get this idea? It was done very widely and all the
time. And photos I've seen of top unloading pipes are no larger than
the outlet pipes at the bottom.

Boy, I sure hope I didn't start this, because I in no way intended to say the bottom outlet was never used, only that the common unloading apparatus at oil jobbers of the period was set up for suction unloading through the dome. One of the reasons was likely that since the common oil storage tank was above grade, a pump was going to be involved anyway, and suction unloading was likely faster.

Digging around in the dim recesses of my memory, I recall that when I was a wee child, my uncle owned an oil blending business on Chicago's west side, named Murphy Oil Co. (even though my uncle's name was not Murphy, and he was not Irish ;-) He shared a tall trestle off the CB&Q's grade separated line with a fuel and material dealer, and as far as I know, unloaded through the bottom outlet strictly by gravity. Of course the trestle gave him about 30' of head.

Dennis

Ed Mines wrote:

The bottom valves on steam era tank cars are way too small to allow the car to be emptied in a timely manner.

Where do you get this idea? It was done very widely and all the time. And photos I've seen of top unloading pipes are no larger than the outlet pipes at the bottom.

I have a feeling they were difficult to open too; otherwise thieves, vandals, hobos etc. would be opening them.

Nope, the accessible part is just a pipe cap on the outlet pipe, but that's not enough to unload. You also have to open the valve, which is INSIDE the tank and operated from the dome. See any steam-era Cyc or a book like Ed Kaminski's _AC&F Tank Cars_ for drawings.

I think tank cars used to transport ashphalt, roofing tar etc. were the tank car equivalent of hide loading box cars.

Not at all. Tank cars could be and were cleaned for new cargoes. Of course it cost time and money, but it was certainly possible. The major exceptions were cars with particular linings, such as rubber linings for acid, which you would not want to use for anything which could interact with the lining.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

That was my take on it as well. There is a large circular object under each
end of the bolster with a "band" of some substance passing beneath and
connecting to the cylinders. It is almost as if they were trying to use
heavy duty rubber bands in place of the springs.

Rich Orr

I doubt the AAR ever gave this design its blessing for interchange
service. I'm rather surprised it even made it past the drawing stage,
but some inventors are stubborn.

Dennis


Not only did DeForrest "Pat" Diver live on Linden Avenue in
Middletown, New York, and not only was he an accomplished
photographer, but he ran a commercial photography business after
his retirement from the "right side" ca. 1940.

The photos of this "experimental" truck appear to have taken at
the doors of the NYO&W shops, off Wisner Ave., in Middletown.
I might hazard a guess that these images were part of a commission
undertaken on behalf of the inventor or builder.

As the O&W descended into the abyss of Bankruptcy every means and
effort was employed to corner some revenue. One income stream that was
tried was contract work for other rail lines or other rail related
enterprises.

The immense and well equipped shops provided heavy "Class" repairs for
locally housed Erie engines, and then for the NYS&W after it became
independent from the Erie. Short line Middletown & Uionville regularly
sent its
engines to the nearby Middletown Shops of the O&W for heavy repair work
and heavy Class overhauls. For its own purposes the O&W undertook heavy
repairs and major rebuilds to reboiler 55 or more of its ca. 1900 - 1910
acquired
engines for superheated operation.

The NYO&W worked with the firm of Motor Terminals Inc. to develop
COFC containers and hardware ca. 1937 for loading both demountable
merchandise and insulated fluid milk containers (the latter being
employed by Muller Dairies).

With a complete foundry, heat treating plant and fully equipped heavy
machine shop I would hazard a further guess that this experimental truck
was produced at the O&W shops as a part of a contract with the original
inventor.

It is not a coincidence that Pat Diver photo images have shown up on the
Cornell
University site inasmuch as DeForrest "Pat" Diver's grandson is affiliated
with the
Cornell library system, and Cornell was a repository of first instance for
many, many
historic images produced by the elder Mr. Diver.

Mal Houck

Ed Mines wrote: "The bottom valves on steam era tank cars are way too small to allow the car to be emptied in a timely manner."

Ed, this generalization doesn't square with certain facts. For example, the Santa Fe's method of unloading locomotive fuel oil at San Bernardino, Cal., and other major terminals was to open the bottom outlet valves on tank cars standing on a fuel delivery track with a concrete trough under the rails. The trough fed into a submerged tank, and as the cars were emptied, the oil was pumped from the submerged tank into nearby above-ground storage tanks.

This was explained in the article, "Fuel Oil for Steam Locomotives" by the late Russell Crump in the Fourth Quarter 1989 "Santa Fe Modeler" magazine of the old Santa Fe Modelers Organization (a predecessor of today's Santa Fe Ry. Historical & Modeling Society, atsfrr.org). A yard plat drawing included with Russell's article shows that the Waynoka, Okla., engine terminal had an oil trough 190 feet long for emptying tank cars through bottom outlets.

Also, as a teenager in New Orleans I routinely saw "steam-era" tank cars carrying glue to a plywood mill near the Texas Pacific-Missouri Pacific Terminal along the riverfront. The cars were unloaded through hoses connected to their bottom outlets, which also had steam connections so the plant's boiler could heat the loads for easier flow. And I saw steam-era tank cars being unloaded through bottom outlets at a bulk lube oil distributor near the Orleans/Jefferson Parish line.

So long,

Andy


Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142

Years ago I had occasion to be working on the tender of an old SP tender and by some means I don't recall managed to get some Bunker-C out of the fuel tank (I have a very vague recollection we were recovering the locomotive whistle that, for some unknown reason, had been stored in the fuel). The Bunker-C had the consistency of tar but when we heated it up it was as fluid (or moreso) as crankcase oil.

Dave Nelson

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

I agree with Bill -- as soon as I saw it, I thought this probably
is a "steering" or "radial" truck. (Don't ask me why they call them
radial.) The idea is that the axle at all times is kept 90 degrees
to the rail, which eliminates sliding on the rail that is responsible
for all the squealing we're used to hearing on curves.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------------

Tim,

Hate to rain on your parade, but I don't see any mechanism for changing the distance between the axle bearings, which would be a requirement to align the axles radial to the curve. The bearings seem to be fixed in boxes cast integral with each sideframe. All I see is a way to transmit the load to some sort of encased springs, using a tension member, cable, no less. I doubt the AAR ever gave this design its blessing for interchange service. I'm rather surprised it even made it past the drawing stage, but some inventors are stubborn.

Dennis

Yeah, well, I got beat up for saying "radial rivet seams" instead
of "circumferential seams" so I'm not taking any chances anymore...

Tim O'

Um Tim, your sentence right after (Don't ask me why they call them radial.) is WHY they are called radial
Brian J Carlson P.E.
 
Who prefers to design radial curved girder bridges vs, non-radial ones.

The bottom valves on steam era tank cars are way too small to allow the car to be emptied in a timely manner.

I have a feeling they were difficult to open too; otherwise thieves, vandals, hobos etc. would be opening them.

I think tank cars used to transport ashphalt, roofing tar etc. were the tank car equivalent of hide loading box cars.

Remember that oil was cheap through most of the steam era.

I think ashphalt, roofing tar, car cement were all similar in composition and of the same origin.

Ed Mines

That for the replies. I just got a Branchline REA undec kit and at a quick look was impressed. Which leads me to my question, any good sites for info on the REA from a modelers view.
reuben@Poplarville, MS

I agree with Bill -- as soon as I saw it, I thought this probably
is a "steering" or "radial" truck. (Don't ask me why they call them
radial.) The idea is that the axle at all times is kept 90 degrees
to the rail, which eliminates sliding on the rail that is responsible
for all the squealing we're used to hearing on curves.

Tim O'Connor

-----------------------------------------

As for the truck, looking at the other photos it seems that there is some
sort of cable system to control sideframe pivot. I seem to recall seeing
these photos in print somewhere.... Bill Schneider

Collection pins down the photo date somewhere between 1870 and 1948.



Al Kresse

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Evans" wrote: "I have found the CofG historical order page - it shows the ventilators as still available."

Dave, while I can't help you with ventilator models, I did find an interesting photo of NP 23, a 2-8-0 switching a very mixed train including a CofG ventilator. Although a "panorama of unknown NP yard ... circa 1950" that doesn't show much detail, it does show that southern railroads' ventilator boxcars did travel into the northern tier of what looks like the prairie states (eastern Rockies?). Go to http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/rvnjpeg_img_rec.php?objno=RVN24579
(if that link doesn't work, try searching http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/ for image RVN24579). This photo is from the extensive Ron V. Nixon Collection posted online (11753 images and data records so far) by the Museum of the Rockies, Montana State University, Bozeman MT. Friendly warning - don't start searching the Nixon Collection archive unless you have hours to enjoy it ...
Regards, Dave Sieber, Reno NV

--- In STMFC@..., "Bill Schneider" <bschneider424@...> wrote:

There are a number of photos of this truck in the Diver collection, including
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739524144/in/set-72157621743681242/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3738733693/in/set-72157621743681242/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739532930/in/set-72157621743681242/

Frist, as Richard H. points out, the dates are misleading. They refer to the lifespan of the photographer, DeForest Diver. Diver was an engineer on the O&W and also an avid photographer. He also seems to have a bit of inventor in him, holding a patent (http://nyow.org/diver.html)

As for the truck, looking at the other photos it seems that there is some sort of cable system to control sideframe pivot. I seem to recall seeing these photos in print somewhere....

Bill Schneider

Richard,

The location in the collection materials is given as, "1948/Box 3/Folder 79/18". 1948 seems plausible.

Bill,

If you look in the middle photo you cite, you can see the cable, and the last photo makes it pretty obvious that the cable runs under the central casting that the bolster bears upon, then up to the other spring housing, although we can't tell if the enclosed springs are steel or rubber.

Dennis

Rick Aylsworth wrote:

Seems to me that if they used the bottom outlet, they would have to open the dome anyway to let air in as the tank emptied. And unless the tank was up on a trestle or was draining into an underground tank, they'd still have to pump it. So why mess with uncapping the bottom outlet, hooking up a hose, and opening the valve, when it could all be done through the dome?

Rick, the tank doesn't just drain when you open the bottom outlet pipe. There is a valve inside the tank which has to be opened. The handwheel to operate that valve is up in the dome, so you have to open the dome to open the valve anyway.
I don't see why it's a lot of work to hook up a hose to the bottom outlet. We're talking minutes, and no pump is required.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Hello Ed and Group,

Thank you for your reply. I guess a kit may be in our future... if... one can hold one's breath long enough. We can always hope.

Happy Modeling,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Feb 8, 2011, at 9:05 AM, Ed Hawkins wrote:

On Feb 8, 2011, at 10:46 AM, billkeene2004 wrote:

In the September, 1990, issue of Mainline Modeler magazine there is
an article with photos about the ACF Standardized Welded Boxcar. Has
this boxcar ever been offered as a kit in HO Scale?

Bill,
Unfortunately no. While the cars were "standardized" there were three
different door openings (6', 7', and 8'), each of which changed the
side panel spacing. There were also 4 ends that were used on ACF welded
box cars, 3 of which have been offered by Branchline Trains. Some ACF
standardized box cars used proprietary ACF Corrugated Ends and others
used what is called an ACF Riveted Roof, which had a double corrugation
on the roof panels much like the roof used by Armour as discussed in RP
CYC Vol. 21. Other ACF welded box cars used more common Murphy panel or
diagonal panel roofs. Now that Atlas has the Branchline tooling,
perhaps they can be convinced to produce some welded-side box cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Group,

There are a couple of more photos of this truck in the set of photos on the Flickr site. One of these is a detail photo of one end of the truck frame. In it one can see what looks to be a cable that appears to be connected to some type of springing media -- perhaps rubber, perhaps an air bladder. This cable then extends the length of the truck, passing under a casting attached to the bolster, then up to the opposite upper corner and its springing media.

Overall, an interesting truck.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

There are a number of photos of this truck in the Diver collection, including
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739524144/in/set-72157621743681242/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3738733693/in/set-72157621743681242/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739532930/in/set-72157621743681242/

Frist, as Richard H. points out, the dates are misleading. They refer to the lifespan of the photographer, DeForest Diver. Diver was an engineer on the O&W and also an avid photographer. He also seems to have a bit of inventor in him, holding a patent (http://nyow.org/diver.html)

As for the truck, looking at the other photos it seems that there is some sort of cable system to control sideframe pivot. I seem to recall seeing these photos in print somewhere....

Bill Schneider

From: Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:49 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] OK, What Kind of Truck is This?


On Feb 8, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Richard Wilkens wrote:

From the Cornell University collection:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/3739520322/in/
set-72157621743681242/

An experimental truck of some sort, Richard, as I've never seen
evidence of a truck of this design in revenue service. And the
dating is wildly incorrect, as both the side frames and bolster are
steel castings, technology that wasn't developed until decades after
1870. Cast steel U-section side frames weren't introduced until the
1920s. As to the function of those cylindrical housings above the
journal boxes, I can only speculate - so I won't.

Richard Hendrickson







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]