The PGE did not really interchange its cars for a period from 1927 through 1952, so would likely have been rare sights in the U.S. at that time. At the time the only access to the PGE was to barge the cars from Vancouver to Squamish, and it wasn't until the 1950s that the line was completed south to CNR/CPR interchange in North Vancouver and north to a CNR interchange at Prince George.

The main boxcar fleet at that point were 75 steel boxcars constructed by CCF in 1947 (15 of which were converted to stock cars in 1959-60), 20 old steel frame xMKT cars (which were transferred to MoW service in the mid-1950s), and 200 steel boxcars constructed by NSC in 1958. I would guess that lumber service was a frequent use of these cars (especially the later cars with 8' doors).

In comparison, the THB & ONT fleets were huge: TH&B had 600 steel boxcars constructed by NSC (300 in 1949 and 300 in 1953), which replaced some old Fowlers and the remaining double-sheathed cars acquired from NYC in 1941 (300 cars originally).

ONT purchased 1000 cars from NSC (570 in 1947, and an additional 430 in 1948), which likely travelled extensively in paper service.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net

On 2010-11-28, at 1:52 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

From Dan Smith's slide-sharing collection, Andy Carlson sent me slides
of PGE and ONT box cars in southern California circa 1958. The PGE box car
was newly built in 1958 but the ONT box car was built in 1947.

The PGE owned fewer than 100 box cars in 1955, and only about 300 in
1959 (after buying 200 new cars in 1958). So I imagine sightings of them
would be very rare indeed in the STMFC era. I believe there was a large
aluminum smelting operation in British Columbia, in addition to lots of
lumber.

I agree with Richard AC, ONT, and TH&B box car sightings were not unusual
esp near US-Canadian border. From the ancient FCL (pre-freightcars list) I
seem to recall someone mentioned spotting an AC box car in Mexico.

Tim O'Connor

I can add to this and other reports numerous photos from my own
collection of ONT, TH&B, and Algoma Central cars below the border,
including AC single sheathed cars in Mason City, IA and Minneapolis,
an ONT steel car in San Francisco, and TH&B 40 ton USRA wood sheathed
box cars in New Haven and Kansas City.
Richard Hendrickson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill McCoy wrote:

I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars
belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come
south of the border in 1957?

NAR no, as AFAIK they never had any cars in interchange.

As others have said, there are many examples of ONT/TEM, PGE, AC and TH&B
cars south of 49. I would /guess/ that QC cars also got across the border,
but my only evidence to suspect that are several photos of QC equipment as
far away from home as Vancouver, BC. Roberval-Saguenay had equipment in
interchange, but I've not seen any photos of their stuff even outside
Quebec, nevermind south of the border.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Steve Hile wrote:
"Actually, the Rock Island only rebuilt 800 of their 2500 USRA double
sheathed cars with steel sides. Many of them remained double sheathed wood
well into the 50's, receiving AB brakes, as required."

Steve, thanks for the correction - got cross-threaded between original and
rebuilt quantities reading my own spreadsheet.


Ben Hom

From Dan Smith's slide-sharing collection, Andy Carlson sent me slides
of PGE and ONT box cars in southern California circa 1958. The PGE box car
was newly built in 1958 but the ONT box car was built in 1947.

The PGE owned fewer than 100 box cars in 1955, and only about 300 in
1959 (after buying 200 new cars in 1958). So I imagine sightings of them
would be very rare indeed in the STMFC era. I believe there was a large
aluminum smelting operation in British Columbia, in addition to lots of
lumber.

I agree with Richard AC, ONT, and TH&B box car sightings were not unusual
esp near US-Canadian border. From the ancient FCL (pre-freightcars list) I
seem to recall someone mentioned spotting an AC box car in Mexico.

Tim O'Connor

Bill McCoy wrote:

I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south of the border in 1957?

I have a photo of a PGE box car in SP's Taylor Yard at Los Angeles in the late 1950s.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

On Nov 28, 2010, at 9:22 AM, John wrote:

Bill,

In 1957 the Ontario Northland (ONT) owned 1,000 40' steel boxcars,
series 90000-90999. Newsprint was a major product shipped by the
ONR to city newspapers including many northeastern U.S. cities. At
any time a large number of these cars would have been south of the
border.

A color photo of ONT 90710 in Columbus Ohio is in Morning Sun book,
Canadian Railways Vol 1.

The same book also has color views of TH&B yellow and black 40'
steel boxcars in Council Bluffs, Iowa,

John Riddell

I can add to this and other reports numerous photos from my own
collection of ONT, TH&B, and Algoma Central cars below the border,
including AC single sheathed cars in Mason City, IA and Minneapolis,
an ONT steel car in San Francisco, and TH&B 40 ton USRA wood sheathed
box cars in New Haven and Kansas City.

Richard Hendrickson

Actually, the Rock Island only rebuilt 800 of their 2500 USRA double
sheathed cars with steel sides. Many of them remained double sheathed wood
well into the 50's, receiving AB brakes, as required.



Supposedly, the Atlas ad shows the N scale car with 8 panels while the
summary text states 10 panels. 10 panels would be OK for the RI, but the
height issue, Ben raises is still unresolved.



Steve Hile



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
benjaminfrank_hom
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 11:14 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Atlas HO USRA Steel Rebuilt Boxcar







Don Burn wrote:
"No it is not accurate for any of those roads."

True, but some corrections need to be made to the following comments to set
the record straight.

"The EJ&E rebuilds had 10 panel sides not 8, and the C&NW was taller with a
blank panel added to the ends."

True. In addition, the EJ&E rebuilds had rectangular panel roofs, nd the CNW
rebuilds had Viking roofs. See Ted Cullotta's Prototype Railroad Modeling
Journal Vol 1 for Clark Propst's article on modeling the EJ&E cars.

"The DT&I had rebuilds but they had Murphy Dry Lading roofs."

Incrrect. The DT&I rebuilds had a unique radial roof with 15 U-section
carlines. The Atlas model with 5/5/5 ends and 8-panel sides can actually be
used as a starting point for these cars as the ends were not modified during
the rebuilding, but the roof will have to be scratchbuilt.
http://dti.railfan.net/Equipment_Database/DTI11000sUSRA40'dsBox/ArtDTI11500s
.html
http://dti.railfan.net/Pototype_Images/rs/DTI11542.jpg

"I could be wrong but I don't believe the other roads had rebuilds."

You are incorrect. Rock Island rebuilt 2500 of their own USRA DS boxcars in
1936 and 1940, and later leased 500 C&NW rebuilt boxcars in 1955. You are
correct that Ann Arbor and Canadian National did not have any USRA rebuilt
boxcars, but both roads did own rebuilt boxcars (in the case of AA, via the
Wabash).

Ben Hom

Bill,

In 1957 the Ontario Northland (ONT) owned 1,000 40' steel boxcars, series 90000-90999. Newsprint was a major product shipped by the ONR to city newspapers including many northeastern U.S. cities. At any time a large number of these cars would have been south of the border.

A color photo of ONT 90710 in Columbus Ohio is in Morning Sun book, Canadian Railways Vol 1.

The same book also has color views of TH&B yellow and black 40' steel boxcars in Council Bluffs, Iowa,

John Riddell

Have a photo of a TH&B box car (insulated?) being switched into the Luden's (cough drops) plant at Reading, PA in 1960 if that helps. Also, one of the Morning Sun books on the Reading Co. shows a yellow TH&B box car at Reading at a slightly later date.

The 1959 opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway greatly altered traffic patterns between Canada and the U.S. Traffic that had headed south for U.S. ports, especially winter time traffic to ice free ports, vanished over night.

Evan Leisey
Bennett, CO

Don Burn wrote:
"No it is not accurate for any of those roads."

True, but some corrections need to be made to the following comments to set the record straight.


"The EJ&E rebuilds had 10 panel sides not 8, and the C&NW was taller with a blank panel added to the ends."

True. In addition, the EJ&E rebuilds had rectangular panel roofs, nd the CNW rebuilds had Viking roofs. See Ted Cullotta's Prototype Railroad Modeling Journal Vol 1 for Clark Propst's article on modeling the EJ&E cars.


"The DT&I had rebuilds but they had Murphy Dry Lading roofs."

Incrrect. The DT&I rebuilds had a unique radial roof with 15 U-section carlines. The Atlas model with 5/5/5 ends and 8-panel sides can actually be used as a starting point for these cars as the ends were not modified during the rebuilding, but the roof will have to be scratchbuilt.
http://dti.railfan.net/Equipment_Database/DTI11000sUSRA40'dsBox/ArtDTI11500s.html
http://dti.railfan.net/Pototype_Images/rs/DTI11542.jpg


"I could be wrong but I don't believe the other roads had rebuilds."

You are incorrect. Rock Island rebuilt 2500 of their own USRA DS boxcars in 1936 and 1940, and later leased 500 C&NW rebuilt boxcars in 1955. You are correct that Ann Arbor and Canadian National did not have any USRA rebuilt boxcars, but both roads did own rebuilt boxcars (in the case of AA, via the Wabash).


Ben Hom

I have a slide of a yellow/black TH&B car in Kansas in 1970, in a Rock Island freight.

Ron Merrick

Bob Chaparro asked:
"The Atlas HO scale USRA steel rebuilt boxcar due in March 2011
(http://www.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/hosteelrebuilt1.htm) will be offered
for the following roads:

Ann Arbor, Canadian National, Chicago & North Western, Detroit, Toledo & Ironton, Elgin, Joliet & Eastern and Rock Island

Does this car appear accurate for those roads?"

No. We've discussed this model and its precursors in N, O, and S scales extensively in the past. These models are hermaphodites that do not model any specific prototypes. (In fact, it's one of the few models out there that I wish the tooling wwas damaged beyond repair and a computer virus destroys all of the electronic files.) Anyone interested in specific details on why these are foobies issues should consult both my and Larry Kline's rebuilt boxcar spreadsheet in the group files section or are invited to contact me off list; simply put, here are the issues with each of these road names:

Ann Arbor: ends, roof.
CN: ends, roof.
CNW: ends, roof, height.
DT&I: roof.
EJ&E: roof.
RI: ends, roof, height.

Additionally, the recessed side sill is poorly modeled for all variants. The supports are the wrong shape, and the appearance is much too "shallow".


"Would it be accurate for other roads as well?"

The best use for this specific model (5/5/5 Murphy ends, 8-panel sides) is for "basic" rebuilds done by ACL/C&WC and SL-SF where the ends and roof of the original car were not modified during the rebuilding. You'd have to rework the side sills to the correct appearance, but that's some relatively easy work. Martin Lofton's did a series of articles on modeling USRA DS rebuilds in 1988-1989 issues of RMC that illustrate how to do this, and the task is made easier today through the availability of Archer rivets.

I'm still trying to find prototypes for the 5/5/5 and 7/8 Murphy end cars with 10-panel side cars.


Ben Hom

No it is not accurate for any of those roads. The EJ&E rebuilds had 10
panel sides not 8, and the C&NW was taller with a blank panel added to the
ends. The DT&I had rebuilds but they had Murphy Dry Lading roofs. I could
be wrong but I don't believe the other roads had rebuilds.

The car is accurate with qualifiers for the Frisco, the Atlantic Coast Line
and the Charleston and West Carolina (an ACL subsidiary). Of course Atlas
has never offered this car for these roads. The qualifiers have been
discussed on this list before, but include not enough overhang of the sides,
and the wrong shape for the brackets supporting the sides. The September
1989 issue of RMC has a good article on the rebuilds.

Don Burn

The Atlas HO scale USRA steel rebuilt boxcar due in March 2011

(http://www.atlasrr.com/HOFreight/hosteelrebuilt1.htm) will be offered for the following roads:

Ann Arbor, Canadian National, Chicago & North Western, Detroit, Toledo & Ironton, Elgin, Joliet & Eastern and Rock Island

Does this car appear accurate for those roads?
Would it be accurate for other roads as well?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

Ed, as you probably know, there were many different groups of these
cars in different number series. However, the majority were in the
4000-4999 series, the 10500-11549 series, and the 11550-13549
series. I have photos of RDG 2135 and RDG 11383 and I am sending you

Thanks Richard.

There were a lot of them and they didn't last too much longer after WWII.

In a message dated 11/28/2010 1:05:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
TGREGMRTN@... writes:

Folks,


John's Announcement reminds us that we are focusing on a basis of first
come first serve for those who have never had an opportunity to participate In
Shake N Take before.

As of this morning I have filled ten spots and we are looking to fill the
balance of the spots with those that are interested in attending and
building this kit.

If there are spots remaining going into the event we will fill the
openings from the list of those that have shown an interest and have attended in
the past. I have that list as well in order of receipt via my email.

Greg Martin




Announcing Proto Rails 2011 Shake-N-Take:

This year's Shake-N-Take (HO scale) will be the construction and detailing
of a 35 ton wooden body meat reefer representing the NADX 3600 series in
service to HORMEL and will be presented by John Greedy.

This year, in order to promote new and FIRST-TIME participants in the
Shake-N-Take experience, registration will be limited to 24 participants
first-come, first served with preference to FIRST-TIMER's (using the honor system
of past attendance records). Also, due to the current national economics,
there will be a $10.00 surcharge, payable at the clinic door for all
participants. Participants will receive a basic kit, custom decals and valuable
techniques and hand-out.

Send your registration request (NO MONEY - $10.00 at the clinic door!) to
Greg Martin at _TGREGMRTN@... (mailto:TGREGMRTN@...) .

For information, dates and registration for Proto Rails 2011 see the
official web site: _http://www.prototyperails.com/_
(http://www.prototyperails.com/)

Note: John Greedy will first present a clinic on HORMEL with an overview
of the history, equipment and operations of Hormel plants. Following the
HORMEL clinic will be the Shake-N-Take clinic.

I have a slide of a TH&B yellow/black box car in Ft. Dodge, Iowa, photographed back in 1955.
That's not 1957, but it comes very close to the time period and suggests such cars were also around in 1957.

Tom

Bryan Busséy wrote:
"Wasn't TH&B a New York Central subsidiary at that time?"

Mostly. NYC and other subsidiaries controlled 73%; Canadian Pacific 27%.


Ben Hom

Bill McCoy asked:
"I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars
belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south
of the border in 1957?"

They most certainly did. Here are some examples from 1950 from Rutland shifting lists in Armand Premo's collection:

Boxcars
Car / Train No / Date
TH&B 3074 / 9 / 17-Nov-50
TH&B 3096 / 9 / 29-Nov-50
TH&B 3115 / 9 / 10-Jul-50
TH&B 3213 / 9 / 5-Jul-50
TH&B 3292 / X71 / 25-Mar-50
TH&B 4134 / 9 / 16-Jul-50
TH&B 4694 / 9 / 21-Nov-50

ONT 90350 / 9 / 21-Jul-50
ONT 90427 / 9 / 6-Jul-50
ONT 90599 / 9 / 30-Nov-50
ONT 90741 / 9 / 10-Nov-50
ONT 90822 / 9 / 30-Nov-50
ONT 90936 / 9 / 17-Nov-50

Flatcar
TH&B 1877 / 9 / 3-Nov-50


Ben Hom

Wasn't TH&B a New York Central subsidiary at that time?

__
bb


On 11/28/2010 8:09 AM, al_brown03 wrote:

Yup. Please see message #60611.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bill"
<wpmccoy@...> wrote:

I know CP and CN cars came to the states in the 50's but did cars

belonging to other Canadian carriers (PGE, TH&B, NAR, etc.)come south
of the border in 1957?

Thanks.

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]