Date   

Re: G-N Hypothesis - Is it just for the "Main Line"?

np328
 

- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:
Now if we take this example as fact -- for discussion purposes only -what we have is a situation where the inbounds and outbound are not well balanced, with the clear result there would be little need to hang on to home road boxcars at this location as there would always be plenty of empty foreign road cars on hand. One could also assume there might be locations where the reverse was true -- that is, almost no foreign road boxcars but a steady demand for empties. And with that in mind, lots of possibilities crop up: any line passing thru a good number of small towns, each of which
having one or more locations that could ship quite a few cars -- lumber mills, Dave Nelson

This situation happened in the PNW. A NP document listing reasons why additional fifty foot double door boxcars needed to be purchased gave the following: During the early 1940's and during WWII, defense shipping from east (of the Mississippi) and auto traffic from Detroit provided plenty of fifty foot double door boxcars the lumber mills craved. They could load these and send them home in the general direction. ( a well balanced siuation)

Then as the war traffic winded down and auto factories in California opened up (Richard Hendrickson's post 89730), this created a need for additional cars of this type.
And from what I have found, given a choice - the mills preferred fifty footers over forty footers. Perhaps Tony Thompson can comment on that regarding SP shippers. For NP/SP&S it certainly was true.

One other thing that I have noticed that is missing from these discussions - tha age of fleets. I have seen in correspondence that some railroads tended to have younger fleets of cars and these did have a higher demand by shippers. In many listings, records I have seen not only list the number of home road/competitors cars, but the age also. Not sure how that would be correlated, I can post scans of these listings if someone would like to see these.
Jim Dick - Roseville, MN


Re: Freight car Distribution

Charlie Vlk
 

The issuance of David Leider's fine history "Wisconsin Central in Illinois" has triggered some thinking about the traffic on the CB&Q that might be considered as an example of why Freight Car Distribution is not just a statistical exercise. The book gives in-depth background about the railroads building into Chicago in competition with the WC and the intrique of that era.

One would think that the GN and NP would have had financial motivation to channel traffic from the owning railroads to the Q from Minneapolis after Hill bought the Burlington.
But this was not the case..... he artificially controlled the existing traffic allocation to the SOO, M&StL, C&NW, MILW and CGW that existed prior to getting control of the Q.
A recent post by a BN retiree on the CB&Q list confirmed that this even-handed treatment of the competition persisted until the day of the BN merger, when in the middle of a recession the traffic on the Twin Cities Line doubled overnight at their expense.

While this may seem to argue in favor of a statistical solution, the point is that traffic patterns had political, economic, physical route, and regulatory overlays that influenced whose cars showed up where.

The UP/SP (and C&NW) have been cited as examples of this.

Since most of us model specific chunks of a real railroad or model our own road after one the best guide for fleet composition would be source evidence of what cars typically showed up on that line... wheel reports, photos of trains, yards, waybills, photos of industries. National statistics need to be tweaked with the local truth.


Charlie Vlk


Re: CGW 1934 X29

brianleppert@att.net
 

Ron, The CGW 85000 and 89000 series box cars came with Dalman 2-Level trucks (available from Tahoe Model Works). However, the 87000 series cars were built with Coil-Elliptic trucks, where a leaf spring is centered between the coil springs (also available from TMW).

Those leaf springs worked fine as long as they stayed lubricated, from what I've read. But they tended to dry out and were removed in later years, resulting in a double truss truck with a wide gap between the springs (and also from TMW).

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

--- In STMFC@..., "mopacfirst" <ron.merrick@...> wrote:

One more question about these cars.

The link to steamfreightcars.com shows one of these cars less than ten years after delivery. In the CGW Color Guide, several of these cars are shown near the end of their existence, and (whether rebuilt or not) almost all of them have a more conventional double-truss truck instead of the Dalman two-level. Is it fair to say that most of them had these trucks replaced, and if so when and why?

Ron Merrick


Re: Lumber Loading

 

I am planning on modeling some Rock Island "hide loading" box cars, maybe by summer,lol! I can just imagine the smell of these cars in the hot summer!!

Rich Christie

--- On Tue, 4/13/10, Jim Hayes <jimhayes97225@...> wrote:

From: Jim Hayes <jimhayes97225@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Lumber Loading
To: STMFC@...
Date: Tuesday, April 13, 2010, 11:06 PM
Greg said
Tom, did you ever get carloads of 1x4 and 1x6x6' fence
boards of California
Incense Cedar in a box? I can still smell those SP boxes
with the "pencil
cedar" smell.

Which brings back memories of boxcar smells. In the Summer
of 1959 (whew,
just under the wire) I worked for a vinegar company in St.
Paul, Minnesota.
One method of shipping vinegar was in cleaned (my job) used
whiskey barrels
which arrived by boxcar. It was mid-Summer and hot and we
had a boxcar to
unload. Wow what a smell. By the time we finished we were
high just on the
fumes.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:27 PM, <tgregmrtn@...>
wrote:



Tom wrote:

Guys,
Although it's past the time frame of this group, I
worked in a wholesale
lumber yard on Florida's west coast during the early
to mid 1970's. I'll
relate some of my experiences based on the type
lumber. First a few givens.
The interior width and length of box cars, the IW is
about 9-2 and the IL is
about 40-6/50-6, plus or minus a few inches. Random
length lumber was not
loaded randomly. It was loaded to fill the width and
length of the car, but
there were still a few inches of space for things to
move. At this time
1x2's and 1x3's were bundled 8 or 10 pieces with
string or tape. 1x12's
would layer 9 wide, 1x10's would layer 11 wide, and so
forth for the other
widths. Lengthwise in a 40 foot car there would be 2
16's and an 8, or 2
12's and a 16, or 2 14's and a 12, or whatever
combination equaled the IL.
The "pick-up-stick mess" was generally the top layers
getting thrown around
by heavy coupling or slack action. The end "lumber
doors" were for lengths
longer than 1/2 the IL plus 1/2 the door width.
1x and 2x Spruce/Pine - We unloaded 3 or 4 40 foot CP
boxcars of this a
week. They would be loaded to about 14 to 18 inches
below the top of the
door. Us "young skinny guys" would have the pleasure
crawling in on top the
lumber to begin the unloading, just make sure you
didn't touch the inside of
the roof during the summer. A 3 or 4 man crew would
take about a day and a
half to complete the unloading.
1x and 2x Redwood - This was usually in a 50 foot
double door SP car, about
1 car every 2 weeks. These were loaded to be unloaded
by forklift, but there
was some hand work to clear out for the forklift. In
good car, 2 men and a
forklift could be done in about 1/2 a day. If the
banding had broken or the
load shifted it became a hand unloading job.
3x and larger Timbers - Most of the time these were 50
foot double door SP
cars set for forklift unloading. Unloading was similar
to the redwood cars.
One memorable load was 1/3 a car of special order
6x12's 24 feet long that
was a hand job.
A few other observations:
We received flat car loads of just about everything
(wrapped and unwrapped)
- 1x and 2x spruce/pine, timbers, scaffold planking.
Between the different lumber, moldings, and other
items, 6-7 cars a week
were normal.
Occasionally while unloading a car you would come to a
layer of craft
paper, at which point you would close the door and
reseal it. Or you would
open one up and there would be a partial load with the
paper on top - LCL.
The "Thrall-door" boxcar was basically a bulkhead flat
car with a roof and
doors.
When moving cars, take some of the slack up on the
hand brake beforehand or
you will not stop before the derail.
You can punch a hole in a car or knock the door off
when trying to
open/close it with a forklift.

Tom Christensen


I find Tom's message amusing as he sounds like he
started in the business
about the same time as mine as I was a junior in High
School when I started
in the business.

I have an old promo booklet somewhere that was put
together by Weyerhaeuser
circa 1964 announcing "YARD PACK" which was showing
that they were
standardizing at least their packaging and the use of
paper wrap for Kiln
Dried Lumber. It does go beyond the scope of this list
so I won't go into
detail, just a note as to perhaps the very beginnings
of the paper wrap era,
not to say they were the first by any means. Paper
wrap in my recollection
was reserved for higher quality lumber what we called
"uppers" i.e. clears,
and common boards in all species.

I actually have a photo of a double door 50-foot GTW
box I will share with
Tim, Dennis and Tom showing the unloading of dimension
lumber by hand and it
dates in the late 40s, perhaps early 50s. I have a
couple of other shots I
will share with them as well.

Tom your notes of the "young Skinny" guys getting the
duties of unloading
the top layers of the car remind me of my first lumber
Boss (when I got to
be an "office guy" and no longer a "yard dog") Del
Windisch who was hired on
at the old Barr Lumber facility in the Wilmington/Long
Beach area after
arriving in the LA area in 1934 and he had the same
duty "top
loader/unloaders" as he was smallish at the time he
hired on.

Dennis is correct for the most part that most
dimensional lumber ended up
in boxcars if for no other reason than its
marketability. Timbers seemed to
be reserved for flats but gondolas as well . Jim
Singer made me a photo copy
of a PRR gondola being loaded with timbers at
Simpson's Shelton, WA facility
(as best I can tell) with a gantry crane on piece at a
time, one layer at a
time. It was a promo photo from the WCLIB.

I suppose I was lucky as the lumber yard I worked for
did most of the
unloading with forklifts, and I was the chosen one to
get the duty of
running the "boxcar special moving the lumber through
the car and handing it
off to a forklift on the ground as we never had a
loading dock, clear the
door, lift the forklift into the car open both doors
so you maneuver in the
car and pray you didn't go out the backside. Broken
bands, well we were
union and the re stacking was done by the Lumber
Handlers not the forklift
drivers on the ground, their time was too valuable. I
wished I had a buck a
thoughts for ever car I had to hand stack and re band.
If you wanted ot
claim the SP for the damage, the agent would come out
and say."improper
bracing and blocking, call the mill guy..." In other
words your screwed...

The early 70s were transition years for open top
loading rules, and only a
few cars still had the "stacks with saplings and wire"
the new rule was
interlaced bands and stacked layers... again that goes
beyond the scope of
this list.

Tom, did you ever get carloads of 1x4 and 1x6x6' fence
boards of California
Incense Cedar in a box? I can still smell those SP
boxes with the "pencil
cedar" smell. And the Redwood, well by the end of the
day your hands were
stained blue after handling the green stock.

By the late 70s the Thrall Door Boxes were somewhat
common but again for
Redwood (LP cars)"uppers" or KD Fir/Larch out of
Bennett Lumber a rare sight
on the SP in Southern California. Centerbeam cars,
well the first one I ever
saw was unloaded at Randle Lumber behind us in
Huntington Beach and by gosh
it went over when they unloaded the wood all off one
side without unloading
the other and of course what was painted on the inside
of the bulkhead a
huge note saying, "unload material evenly from both
sides at the same
time..." Oops!

Greg Martin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: CGW 1934 X29

mopacfirst
 

One more question about these cars.

The link to steamfreightcars.com shows one of these cars less than ten years after delivery. In the CGW Color Guide, several of these cars are shown near the end of their existence, and (whether rebuilt or not) almost all of them have a more conventional double-truss truck instead of the Dalman two-level. Is it fair to say that most of them had these trucks replaced, and if so when and why?

Ron Merrick


Box/auto distribution 1938

Wendye Ware
 

Hi Everyone

Here is some info on the distribution of box and auto cars for trains on the U.P. mainline between Laramie and Rawlins in 1938. The data are compiled from three Freight Conductors' Train Books written by conductors Ferguson, Fraley, and Fitz. Ferguson's data are from May and June of 1938, while Fraley's and Fitz's are from September-October of the same year.

In the tables below the information from the train books is compared to national averages based on the January, 1938 ORER. The national values count only box, auto and ventilated cars in interchange service on Class I U.S. roads or their lessees.

The tables show the road initial, the number of box/auto cars in the conductors' books, the percentage these cars represent, and the national percentage. Only roads with 5 or more cars reported in the train books are listed.

Roads in which the percentage of cars tallied from the conductors' books exceeds the national percentage.
Road: Num; Book %; Nat %
SP: 201; 15.1%; 3.3%
CB&Q: 125; 9.4%; 3.0%
NYC: 99; 7.4%; 6.1%
MILW: 83; 6.2%; 4.7%
CNW: 64; 4.8%; 3.2%
WP: 54; 4.1%; 0.4%
GTW: 53; 4.0%; 1.3%
RI: 44; 3.3%; 3.1%
MP: 33; 2.5%; 2.3%
IC: 32; 2.4%; 2.3%
SLSF: 31; 2.3%; 2.0%
PM: 26; 2.0%; 1.5%
DT&I: 21; 1.6%; 0.3%
NKP: 15; 1.1%; 1.0%
T&P: 15; 1.1%; 0.5%
T&NO: 14; 1.1%; 1.0%
CGW: 8; 0.6%; 0.5%
CMO: 7; 0.5%; 0.5%
B&LE: 5; 0.4%; 0.0%

Roads in which the percentage of cars tallied from the conductors' books is less than the national percentage.
Road: Num; Book %; Nat %
PRR: 79; 5.9%; 10.4%
ATSF: 36; 2.7%; 4.9%
MC: 27; 2.0%; 2.5%
B&O: 24; 1.8%; 4.4%
NP: 24; 1.8%; 3.1%
SOUTHERN: 19; 1.4%; 3.6%
WABASH: 18; 1.4%; 1.6%
GN: 15; 1.1%; 3.5%
SOO: 15; 1.1%; 1.4%
ERIE: 13; 1.0%; 1.4%
L&N: 11; 0.8%; 2.2%
C&O: 9; 0.7%; 1.4%
CCC&STL: 7; 0.5%; 1.5%
N&W: 7; 0.5%; 1.0%
D&RGW: 6; 0.5%; 0.6%
M-K-T: 6; 0.5%; 0.6%
DL&W: 5; 0.4%; 1.3%

FWIW the percentage of box/auto cars that were UP is 41% - 935 cars of a total of 2,267. (1,332 cars were used to calculate the Book % in the tables.)

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Lumber Loading

Jim Hayes
 

Greg said
Tom, did you ever get carloads of 1x4 and 1x6x6' fence boards of California
Incense Cedar in a box? I can still smell those SP boxes with the "pencil
cedar" smell.

Which brings back memories of boxcar smells. In the Summer of 1959 (whew,
just under the wire) I worked for a vinegar company in St. Paul, Minnesota.
One method of shipping vinegar was in cleaned (my job) used whiskey barrels
which arrived by boxcar. It was mid-Summer and hot and we had a boxcar to
unload. Wow what a smell. By the time we finished we were high just on the
fumes.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:27 PM, <tgregmrtn@...> wrote:



Tom wrote:

Guys,
Although it's past the time frame of this group, I worked in a wholesale
lumber yard on Florida's west coast during the early to mid 1970's. I'll
relate some of my experiences based on the type lumber. First a few givens.
The interior width and length of box cars, the IW is about 9-2 and the IL is
about 40-6/50-6, plus or minus a few inches. Random length lumber was not
loaded randomly. It was loaded to fill the width and length of the car, but
there were still a few inches of space for things to move. At this time
1x2's and 1x3's were bundled 8 or 10 pieces with string or tape. 1x12's
would layer 9 wide, 1x10's would layer 11 wide, and so forth for the other
widths. Lengthwise in a 40 foot car there would be 2 16's and an 8, or 2
12's and a 16, or 2 14's and a 12, or whatever combination equaled the IL.
The "pick-up-stick mess" was generally the top layers getting thrown around
by heavy coupling or slack action. The end "lumber doors" were for lengths
longer than 1/2 the IL plus 1/2 the door width.
1x and 2x Spruce/Pine - We unloaded 3 or 4 40 foot CP boxcars of this a
week. They would be loaded to about 14 to 18 inches below the top of the
door. Us "young skinny guys" would have the pleasure crawling in on top the
lumber to begin the unloading, just make sure you didn't touch the inside of
the roof during the summer. A 3 or 4 man crew would take about a day and a
half to complete the unloading.
1x and 2x Redwood - This was usually in a 50 foot double door SP car, about
1 car every 2 weeks. These were loaded to be unloaded by forklift, but there
was some hand work to clear out for the forklift. In good car, 2 men and a
forklift could be done in about 1/2 a day. If the banding had broken or the
load shifted it became a hand unloading job.
3x and larger Timbers - Most of the time these were 50 foot double door SP
cars set for forklift unloading. Unloading was similar to the redwood cars.
One memorable load was 1/3 a car of special order 6x12's 24 feet long that
was a hand job.
A few other observations:
We received flat car loads of just about everything (wrapped and unwrapped)
- 1x and 2x spruce/pine, timbers, scaffold planking.
Between the different lumber, moldings, and other items, 6-7 cars a week
were normal.
Occasionally while unloading a car you would come to a layer of craft
paper, at which point you would close the door and reseal it. Or you would
open one up and there would be a partial load with the paper on top - LCL.
The "Thrall-door" boxcar was basically a bulkhead flat car with a roof and
doors.
When moving cars, take some of the slack up on the hand brake beforehand or
you will not stop before the derail.
You can punch a hole in a car or knock the door off when trying to
open/close it with a forklift.

Tom Christensen


I find Tom's message amusing as he sounds like he started in the business
about the same time as mine as I was a junior in High School when I started
in the business.

I have an old promo booklet somewhere that was put together by Weyerhaeuser
circa 1964 announcing "YARD PACK" which was showing that they were
standardizing at least their packaging and the use of paper wrap for Kiln
Dried Lumber. It does go beyond the scope of this list so I won't go into
detail, just a note as to perhaps the very beginnings of the paper wrap era,
not to say they were the first by any means. Paper wrap in my recollection
was reserved for higher quality lumber what we called "uppers" i.e. clears,
and common boards in all species.

I actually have a photo of a double door 50-foot GTW box I will share with
Tim, Dennis and Tom showing the unloading of dimension lumber by hand and it
dates in the late 40s, perhaps early 50s. I have a couple of other shots I
will share with them as well.

Tom your notes of the "young Skinny" guys getting the duties of unloading
the top layers of the car remind me of my first lumber Boss (when I got to
be an "office guy" and no longer a "yard dog") Del Windisch who was hired on
at the old Barr Lumber facility in the Wilmington/Long Beach area after
arriving in the LA area in 1934 and he had the same duty "top
loader/unloaders" as he was smallish at the time he hired on.

Dennis is correct for the most part that most dimensional lumber ended up
in boxcars if for no other reason than its marketability. Timbers seemed to
be reserved for flats but gondolas as well . Jim Singer made me a photo copy
of a PRR gondola being loaded with timbers at Simpson's Shelton, WA facility
(as best I can tell) with a gantry crane on piece at a time, one layer at a
time. It was a promo photo from the WCLIB.

I suppose I was lucky as the lumber yard I worked for did most of the
unloading with forklifts, and I was the chosen one to get the duty of
running the "boxcar special moving the lumber through the car and handing it
off to a forklift on the ground as we never had a loading dock, clear the
door, lift the forklift into the car open both doors so you maneuver in the
car and pray you didn't go out the backside. Broken bands, well we were
union and the re stacking was done by the Lumber Handlers not the forklift
drivers on the ground, their time was too valuable. I wished I had a buck a
thoughts for ever car I had to hand stack and re band. If you wanted ot
claim the SP for the damage, the agent would come out and say."improper
bracing and blocking, call the mill guy..." In other words your screwed...

The early 70s were transition years for open top loading rules, and only a
few cars still had the "stacks with saplings and wire" the new rule was
interlaced bands and stacked layers... again that goes beyond the scope of
this list.

Tom, did you ever get carloads of 1x4 and 1x6x6' fence boards of California
Incense Cedar in a box? I can still smell those SP boxes with the "pencil
cedar" smell. And the Redwood, well by the end of the day your hands were
stained blue after handling the green stock.

By the late 70s the Thrall Door Boxes were somewhat common but again for
Redwood (LP cars)"uppers" or KD Fir/Larch out of Bennett Lumber a rare sight
on the SP in Southern California. Centerbeam cars, well the first one I ever
saw was unloaded at Randle Lumber behind us in Huntington Beach and by gosh
it went over when they unloaded the wood all off one side without unloading
the other and of course what was painted on the inside of the bulkhead a
huge note saying, "unload material evenly from both sides at the same
time..." Oops!

Greg Martin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Re: G-N Hypothesis - Is it just for the "Main Line"?

Dave Nelson
 

cnw1045 wrote:

My question to the group is whether the hypothesis could be useful
from the point of view of someone developing a roster for a switching
layout, restricted to the location on a trunk line of a Class 1
railroad. Here's another experiment:

"OK, I'm standing in Pasco, WA during the steam era, watching a
siding serving a grain elevator during the rush and counting the cars
as they are loaded. Is it a general service car? If not, don't
tabulate it. Is it a NP (home road) XM? If so, don't count it.
Otherwise tabulate the road name. Repeat over a statistically
significant sample."

I know this is not how the G-N hypothesis was developed and evaluated
(via wheel reports), and it seems like there's something different
about this second experiment because the observer is watching a
siding rather than trains go by, but somehow it seems to me that over
the long run the result should be the same for the train
watcher/counter as for the observer of an industry on a trunk line
that serves general service cars.
I have too little data to say much about this that's factual. What I do
have is the example of the terminal yard of Western Pacific in Oakland and
the industries they served there and in San Francsico abd nearby
communities. I also know how many cars per day came in and left. And I
also knew how many cars of each of 260+ commodities were handled by the WP
(per the ICC commodity reports) and whether they terminated, originated or
were bridged by the WP. I put together a simulation of that, making use of
my best *estimates* of whether a given customer site was mostly inbound or
mostly outbound, and made some further estimation based on the length of the
service spur. IOW, lots of estimating. After running the simulation a
number of times (which was in fact for the entire Western Division as I had
the data for them too) I could consistently generate about the right number
of cars going in and out of Oakland on each day. The net was there were
many times more inbounds than out bounds. I thought about that for a while
and concluded it was probably the case. Looking thru the industry list what
I saw was mostly distributors and warehouses -- terminating sites. Was the
simulation correct? Beats me. But in its way, I did learn something from
it.

Now if we take this example as fact -- for discussion purposes only -- what
we have is a situation where the inbounds and outbound are not well
balanced, with the clear result there would be little need to hang on to
home road boxcars at this location as there would always be plenty of empty
foreign road cars on hand. One could also assume there might be locations
where the reverse was true -- that is, almost no foreign road boxcars but a
steady demand for empties. And with that in mind, lots of possibilities
crop up: any line passing thru a good number of small towns, each of which
having one or more locations that could ship quite a few cars -- lumber
mills, grain elevators, coal mining towns (needing empty hopers) and not
enough people for many inbound shipments. Now if those are located on a
trunk line between two major cities, what you might see *passing through*
would match the smooth distribution hypothesis, but what you'd see being
switched might be different because of the imbalance. Show the towns out on
a lonely branch line and the imbalance might be quite large.

I don't have any wheel reports that prove or disprove any of that. But I
think it's a reasonable place to start thinking WRT that switching layout
you mentioned.

Dave Nelson


Re: G-N Hypothesis - Is it just for the "Main Line"?

Tim O'Connor
 

My question to the group is whether the hypothesis could be useful
from the point of view of someone developing a roster for a switching
layout, restricted to the location on a trunk line of a Class 1 railroad.
Charles,

It depends on what your switching layout represents. For example,
I am thinking of some panoramic photos of the grain elevators at
Duluth WI -- and (ignoring home road GN or NP cars) the variety
of prototype railroad names on the other cars was breathtaking!
Now, did the WIF and SAL and PRR and T&NO send carloads of wheat
to Duluth? I'm guessing, well, no, they didn't. So those foreign
cars probably were loaded in nearby states on railroads like the
NP, GN, SOO, CB&Q, MILW, C&NW, etc.

Minnesota and Wisconsin are in District 11. By Rule 4, cars can be
loaded for "intermediate districts". So a WIF car in Montana (AAR
District 3) can be loaded with wheat for District 11, because that
is an intermediate district between Montana and District 21 (which
includes Florida) -- the only home district of the WIF.

In fact that WIF car may carry several more loads before it gets
home again -- as long as it sort of generally heads in the direction
of Florida. And here's the good part -- it's all on the honor system.
Railroads were asked to follow the guidelines, but there was absolutely
no sanction or punishment for deviating from them. If the GN really
needed an empty, and the only thing in the yard was an empty WIF
box car, guess what? So what if it's a load of matches for Colorado?
(Diamond Match company was in Duluth.)

Tim O'Connor


B&O AAR 70-ton Flatcars was [Re: NEW KADEE TRUCKS]

rwitt_2000
 

Brian,

Yes, it appears they were. That is why I noted that the class P-25 had
50-ton trucks where all the rest had 70-ton trucks. As far as anyone can
tell the "underframes were the same for all classes, but one would need
the general arrangement drawings to confirm this assumption. The B&OHS
has no diagrams for modern trucks just ones from 1903 so I will have to
go through all the diagram sheets to find what 50-ton cars originally
received these trucks.

The B&O trucks types are listed below. All the "51" are 70-ton and the
9-EA and 9-JA are 50-ton.

Class Truck Type
P-24 51-W
P-25 9-EA, 9-JA
P-25A 51-Q
P-31 51-XA
P-31 51-XA
P-32 51-XD
P-32A 51-XD

I haven't traced all the conversions to bulkhead and auto frames
service, but some of the converted cars appear to have retained their
original 50-ton ratings.

Regards,

Bob Witt



--- In STMFC@..., "brianleppert@..." <brianleppert@...>
wrote:




Bob, both #8831 in the Fallen Flags site and #8812 in the MS Color
Guide (both P-25As rebuilt with bulkheads, I think) have trucks with the
Barber Lateral Motion Device. I'm really sure that 1951 is way too late
for these trucks to be newly built for these cars. Any evidence that
they were second-hand?

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

--- In STMFC@..., "rwitt_2000" rwitt_2000@ wrote:

I am doing a flatcar presentation for the B&O Ohio or Western Midcon
so
I have the information available.

Below is a table of the all the AAR 70-ton B&O flat cars built new.
For
each series the B&O purchased underframes from Greenville Steel Car
and
added "bodies" in their own shops. All were completed at DuBois
except
for the first group of P-24, which were completed in their Keyser
shops.
The class P-25 received 50-ton trucks and were so rated.

Class Series Built No. Cars
P-24 8000-8024 1948 25
P-25 8100-8249 1951 150
P-25A 8250-8399 1951 150
P-31 8400-8499 1953-54 65
P-31 8900-8979 1955 85
P-32 9100-9241 1956 142
P-32A 9300-9357 1956 58

This group of flatcars received many conversions for plaster board
service, auto frame service, packaged lumber, "TOTE" bins, and
"TOFCEE"
trailer service.

InterMountain released models of these flatcars and bulkhead version
released by InterMountian represents those as applied by the B&O.

It is a small but interesting group of cars in the B&O freight car
fleet.

Regards,

Bob Witt


G-N Hypothesis - Is it just for the "Main Line"?

cnw1045 <cesicjh@...>
 

I've been following the discussions of the G-N hypothesis with great interest. One thing that's occurred to me is that I tend to think of the G-N hypothesis (from the modelers point of view) as a tool primarily for folks who are modeling a significant stretch of main line.

"OK, I'm standing trackside on Sherman Hill in the late steam era and counting cars as the trains roll by. Is this particular car a general service car, i.e., an XM (in the strictest sense of the way I've seen the discussion framed)? If not, don't tabulate it. Is it a UP (home road) XM? If so, don't count it. Otherwise tabulate the road name. Repeat over a statistically significant sample."

Then the G-N hypothesis as I understand is is that the frequencies of foreign general service cars on this trunk route will approximate the relative frequencies in the national car fleet (neglecting second-order factors, over which there is some discussion). And we believe this to be roughly true whether our point of observation is Sherman Hill, or Stampede Pass, or De Kalb IL on the CNW main line, etc. As long as we are watching trains go by on a trunk line, this is a useful starting point for developing our roster...


My question to the group is whether the hypothesis could be useful from the point of view of someone developing a roster for a switching layout, restricted to the location on a trunk line of a Class 1 railroad. Here's another experiment:

"OK, I'm standing in Pasco, WA during the steam era, watching a siding serving a grain elevator during the rush and counting the cars as they are loaded. Is it a general service car? If not, don't tabulate it. Is it a NP (home road) XM? If so, don't count it. Otherwise tabulate the road name. Repeat over a statistically significant sample."

I know this is not how the G-N hypothesis was developed and evaluated (via wheel reports), and it seems like there's something different about this second experiment because the observer is watching a siding rather than trains go by, but somehow it seems to me that over the long run the result should be the same for the train watcher/counter as for the observer of an industry on a trunk line that serves general service cars.

One could imagine doing a similar experiment watching non-Pere Marquette (or C&O) general service cars coming off of the City of Midland (car ferry) on the Ludington MI/Milwaukee WI run. Over the long run will this distribution approximate the national car fleet? Is the applicability of the hypothesis really restricted to the train watcher's point of view?

Thanks to all for a thought provoking discussion,

Charles Hostetler
Goshen, IN


Re: Freight car Distribution

Brian Carlson
 

Ok. I quickly got through today's messages so if someone made this point I
may have missed it. The N-G model is a model for the population of boxcars,
it's a fleet model. It is not an attempt to model or describe a specific
train. We've discussed this on here before. We've clearly shown a specific
train won't necessarily fit the model (Mike Brock's SP boxcar train being
one that gets mentioned every time) but trains (plural) are analyzed the
data often supports the model.



If I am using the N-G model to develop a fleet (which I am) on my layout
those cars will run in various trains as a pool from which to operate.



I feel like a Mark twain reference to lies, damn lies and statistics is
necessary.



Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga NY

prrk41361@...



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Aley, Jeff A
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:19 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Freight car Distribution - Larry Kline





Bruce,

OK, I'll give you (and Ned) another reason why peddler freights, turns, and
locals may not seem to follow the N-G model.

The statistical sample size is much smaller (meaning you will therefore
observe more variance).

The G-N model is a macroscopic model - it works well for large quantities of
shipper - consignee pairs. But as Dennis points out, for a small quantity of
shipper-consignee pairs, the "exceptions" may (will?) dominate.


Re: Lumber Loading

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn@... wrote:


Dennis is correct for the most part that most dimensional lumber ended up in boxcars if for no other reason than its marketability. Timbers seemed to be reserved for flats but gondolas as well . Jim Singer made me a photo copy of a PRR gondola being loaded with timbers at Simpson's Shelton, WA facility (as best I can tell) with a gantry crane one piece at a time, one layer at a time. It was a promo photo from the WCLIB.

Yeah, That's what I'm thinking. I haven't seen Ron's photo yet, but I'll bet it was rough-sawn plank, either hardwood or softwood for scaffold plank or excavation sheathing. Seasoned lumber, whether kiln dried or air dried, wasn't shipped exposed to the weather, or its value would degrade.

I think we've substantiated here that both the all door cars and center beam cars (and paper wrapping, for that matter) post date the cut-off for this list.


Tom Christensen said:
When moving cars, take some of the slack up on the hand brake beforehand or you will not stop before the derail.
You can punch a hole in a car or knock the door off when trying to open/close it with a forklift.

Getting back to the steam ear, before WWII, when Dad quit school, he worked as one of the "yard dogs" as Gregg put it. His recollection on freeing stuck doors was they'd take a chain with flat hooks and jam them in behind the edges of the door as best they could, hook it to the truck, and drive straight away from the car. When the slack ran out of the chain, the door would buckle outward in the middle, and pop right off the car. They'd throw it back inside when they'd finished unloading.

Dennis


Re: Lumber Loading

Greg Martin
 

Tom wrote:

Guys,
Although it's past the time frame of this group, I worked in a wholesale lumber yard on Florida's west coast during the early to mid 1970's. I'll relate some of my experiences based on the type lumber. First a few givens. The interior width and length of box cars, the IW is about 9-2 and the IL is about 40-6/50-6, plus or minus a few inches. Random length lumber was not loaded randomly. It was loaded to fill the width and length of the car, but there were still a few inches of space for things to move. At this time 1x2's and 1x3's were bundled 8 or 10 pieces with string or tape. 1x12's would layer 9 wide, 1x10's would layer 11 wide, and so forth for the other widths. Lengthwise in a 40 foot car there would be 2 16's and an 8, or 2 12's and a 16, or 2 14's and a 12, or whatever combination equaled the IL. The "pick-up-stick mess" was generally the top layers getting thrown around by heavy coupling or slack action. The end "lumber doors" were for lengths longer than 1/2 the IL plus 1/2 the door width.
1x and 2x Spruce/Pine - We unloaded 3 or 4 40 foot CP boxcars of this a week. They would be loaded to about 14 to 18 inches below the top of the door. Us "young skinny guys" would have the pleasure crawling in on top the lumber to begin the unloading, just make sure you didn't touch the inside of the roof during the summer. A 3 or 4 man crew would take about a day and a half to complete the unloading.
1x and 2x Redwood - This was usually in a 50 foot double door SP car, about 1 car every 2 weeks. These were loaded to be unloaded by forklift, but there was some hand work to clear out for the forklift. In good car, 2 men and a forklift could be done in about 1/2 a day. If the banding had broken or the load shifted it became a hand unloading job.
3x and larger Timbers - Most of the time these were 50 foot double door SP cars set for forklift unloading. Unloading was similar to the redwood cars. One memorable load was 1/3 a car of special order 6x12's 24 feet long that was a hand job.
A few other observations:
We received flat car loads of just about everything (wrapped and unwrapped) - 1x and 2x spruce/pine, timbers, scaffold planking.
Between the different lumber, moldings, and other items, 6-7 cars a week were normal.
Occasionally while unloading a car you would come to a layer of craft paper, at which point you would close the door and reseal it. Or you would open one up and there would be a partial load with the paper on top - LCL.
The "Thrall-door" boxcar was basically a bulkhead flat car with a roof and doors.
When moving cars, take some of the slack up on the hand brake beforehand or you will not stop before the derail.
You can punch a hole in a car or knock the door off when trying to open/close it with a forklift.

Tom Christensen






I find Tom's message amusing as he sounds like he started in the business about the same time as mine as I was a junior in High School when I started in the business.

I have an old promo booklet somewhere that was put together by Weyerhaeuser circa 1964 announcing "YARD PACK" which was showing that they were standardizing at least their packaging and the use of paper wrap for Kiln Dried Lumber. It does go beyond the scope of this list so I won't go into detail, just a note as to perhaps the very beginnings of the paper wrap era, not to say they were the first by any means. Paper wrap in my recollection was reserved for higher quality lumber what we called "uppers" i.e. clears, and common boards in all species.

I actually have a photo of a double door 50-foot GTW box I will share with Tim, Dennis and Tom showing the unloading of dimension lumber by hand and it dates in the late 40s, perhaps early 50s. I have a couple of other shots I will share with them as well.

Tom your notes of the "young Skinny" guys getting the duties of unloading the top layers of the car remind me of my first lumber Boss (when I got to be an "office guy" and no longer a "yard dog") Del Windisch who was hired on at the old Barr Lumber facility in the Wilmington/Long Beach area after arriving in the LA area in 1934 and he had the same duty "top loader/unloaders" as he was smallish at the time he hired on.

Dennis is correct for the most part that most dimensional lumber ended up in boxcars if for no other reason than its marketability. Timbers seemed to be reserved for flats but gondolas as well . Jim Singer made me a photo copy of a PRR gondola being loaded with timbers at Simpson's Shelton, WA facility (as best I can tell) with a gantry crane on piece at a time, one layer at a time. It was a promo photo from the WCLIB.

I suppose I was lucky as the lumber yard I worked for did most of the unloading with forklifts, and I was the chosen one to get the duty of running the "boxcar special moving the lumber through the car and handing it off to a forklift on the ground as we never had a loading dock, clear the door, lift the forklift into the car open both doors so you maneuver in the car and pray you didn't go out the backside. Broken bands, well we were union and the re stacking was done by the Lumber Handlers not the forklift drivers on the ground, their time was too valuable. I wished I had a buck a thoughts for ever car I had to hand stack and re band. If you wanted ot claim the SP for the damage, the agent would come out and say."improper bracing and blocking, call the mill guy..." In other words your screwed...

The early 70s were transition years for open top loading rules, and only a few cars still had the "stacks with saplings and wire" the new rule was interlaced bands and stacked layers... again that goes beyond the scope of this list.

Tom, did you ever get carloads of 1x4 and 1x6x6' fence boards of California Incense Cedar in a box? I can still smell those SP boxes with the "pencil cedar" smell. And the Redwood, well by the end of the day your hands were stained blue after handling the green stock.

By the late 70s the Thrall Door Boxes were somewhat common but again for Redwood (LP cars)"uppers" or KD Fir/Larch out of Bennett Lumber a rare sight on the SP in Southern California. Centerbeam cars, well the first one I ever saw was unloaded at Randle Lumber behind us in Huntington Beach and by gosh it went over when they unloaded the wood all off one side without unloading the other and of course what was painted on the inside of the bulkhead a huge note saying, "unload material evenly from both sides at the same time..." Oops!

Greg Martin


Re: Freight car Distribution

Tim O'Connor
 

In all this talk of SP soliciting traffic to route over the
UP, we are ignoring a key point: Whether SP chose to load a
HOME ROAD box car or a RETURNING FOREIGN box car for shipment
to the east, was completely outside the scope of any of these
agreements. It fell strictly under the scope of AAR loading
guidelines listed in every ORER.

In other words, the routing of freight cars via Ogden has almost
NOTHING per se to do with the distribution of ownership of the cars.

I do recall from Tim's and Dave's work (and other sources) that
percentage of loaded car-miles for XM box cars was somewhere in
the 65%-75% range. In other words, if a PRR box car came west
via UP-SP, then if SP had an eastbound load to send to the UP,
the SP would be quite happy to use that PRR box car for the
load rather than carry it empty for 700 or 800 miles until it
could be handed over to the UP. The fact that loaded/empty
miles were not 50:50 in the country is strong evidence that
railroads worked hard to reload foreign cars -- and those cars
had to be sent "towards" their owners.

I have never accepted Mike's tiny data sample as representative
of the entire traffic load carried over the UP within a longer
time period. Like I wrote before, the UP carried something like
1,500,000 freight cars over Sherman Hill in a year. A data sample
of even a few thousand cars is simply not statistically meaningful.
So yes there are some extra SP and WP cars in his data. Could just
be an "above average" day, or days... or maybe his conductor rode
a freight train that expedited some particular traffic flow. A
lot of variables here, and none of them are taken into account.

Now, large scale traffic flows are meaningful -- how much box car
traffic was westbound on the UP, and how much was eastbound? If
the flow was unbalanced, then this could easily "skew" the results.
But where is that data in this discussion?

Tim O'Connor


Lumber Loading

thomas christensen
 

--- On Tue, 4/13/10, soolinehistory <destorzek@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@ ...> wrote:


Naturally double door cars were desirable for lumber, but
lots of lumber was shipped in ordinary 40' single door cars
too. In the 1960's I enjoyed watching a crew of young guys
struggling to unload a 40' car load of "random" lumber (it
looked like an exploded pick-up-stix game). Those "lumber
doors" in 40' box cars weren't there for decoration -- when
the shipper couldn't get any more pieces through the doorway
he threw them in through the door in the end of the car! And
the unloading crew got to untangle the mess.
Tim,

I'm going to theorize that the "pick-up-stix" mess was caused by the rambunctious and inexperienced unloading crew, not the mill. If they left it that way overnight and all those boards developed a crook, they were likely looking for new jobs the next day.

Dad was a carpenter who augmented his income by doing a heck of a lot of weekend and evening "side jobs" when I was a kid, and I spent a lot of time in lumber yards during the fifties and sixties. Unlike the big box home centers of today, lumber was a commodity that was treated with respect, to preserve its value, none of that just throw it in the bin business. Lumber was moved by hand, several sticks at a time, from the boxcar to a truck; from the truck to a neat stack in the shed; from the stack onto the truck for delivery. If someone went to the lumber yard to pick up their own order, the "yard man" picked the order and wheeled it up front, or had the customer spot his truck and loaded it. Having "pickin' privileges" was an honor not to be abused, since it could save maybe maybe 7 - 8% of the cost of the material on a job. Leave the man's stacks jumbled, and you didn't get pickin' privileges again. Lumber yards managed their stock; when the yard man
had nothing else to do he gathered up the "crooks", took them to the saw shed, and made them into something salable, like pre-cut concrete stakes.

Speaking of lumber -- anyone know when the first "wrapped"
lumber loads began? I mean the neat stacks of same-length
pieces, all nicely wrapped up. I'm guessing it was sometime
in the 1950's, since that's when wrapped drywall loads on
flats appeared.
I still remember lumber in boxcars in 1959 or '60, maybe a couple years later. Drywall also originally was shipped in boxcars, which must have been an absolutely miserable job to unload. Drywall lent itself to shipping on bulkhead flats, since it was large flat sheets and it didn't have to be piled very high to max out the car's capacity. Lumber was a different story; while large timbers could and were shipped on flatcars, the pile of dimensional lumber got awfully high and tippy before the car's load limit was reached. Greg Martin could likely tell us more, but I don't think dimensional lumber was ever shipped on standard flats, remember that the transitional car was the "Thrall-door" boxcar, which was introduced when, mid sixties? Those cars had a central structure, since they didn't have any sides, and it was only a short leap to the early center beam flats, but all this happened well after 1960.

Dennis

Guys,
 Although it's past the time frame of this group, I worked in a wholesale lumber yard on Florida's west coast during the early to mid 1970's. I'll relate some of my experiences based on the type lumber. First a few givens. The interior width and length of box cars, the IW is about 9-2 and the IL is about 40-6/50-6, plus or minus a few inches. Random length lumber was not loaded randomly. It was loaded to fill the width and length of the car, but there were still a few inches of space for things to move. At this time 1x2's and 1x3's were bundled 8 or 10 pieces with string or tape. 1x12's would layer 9 wide, 1x10's would layer 11 wide, and so forth for the other widths. Lengthwise in a 40 foot car there would be 2 16's and an 8, or 2 12's and a 16, or 2 14's and a 12, or whatever combination equaled the IL. The "pick-up-stick mess"  was generally the  top layers getting thrown around by heavy coupling or slack action.  The end "lumber doors" were for
lengths longer than 1/2 the IL plus 1/2 the door width.
1x and 2x Spruce/Pine - We unloaded 3 or 4  40 foot CP boxcars of this a week. They would  be loaded to about 14 to 18 inches below the top of the door. Us "young skinny guys" would have the pleasure crawling in on top the lumber to begin the unloading, just make sure you didn't touch the inside of the roof during the summer. A 3 or 4 man crew would take about a day and a half to complete the unloading.
1x and 2x Redwood - This was usually in a 50 foot double door SP car, about 1 car every 2 weeks. These were loaded to be unloaded by forklift, but there was some hand work to clear out for the forklift. In good car, 2 men and a forklift could be done in about 1/2 a day. If  the banding had broken or the load shifted it became a hand unloading job.
3x and larger Timbers - Most of the time these were 50 foot double door SP cars set for forklift unloading. Unloading was similar to the redwood cars. One memorable load was 1/3 a car of special order 6x12's 24 feet long that was a hand job.
A few other observations:
 We received flat car loads of just about everything (wrapped and unwrapped) - 1x and 2x spruce/pine, timbers, scaffold planking.
 Between the different lumber, moldings, and other items, 6-7 cars a week  were normal.
 Occasionally while unloading a car you would come to a layer of craft paper, at which point you would close the door and reseal it. Or you would open one up and there would be a partial load with the paper on top - LCL.
 The "Thrall-door" boxcar was basically a bulkhead flat car with a roof and doors.
 When moving cars, take some of the slack up on the hand brake beforehand or you will not stop before the derail.
 You can punch a hole in a car or knock the door off when trying to open/close it with a forklift.
 
Tom Christensen
  
 
 













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Freight car Distribution - Larry Kline

Tim O'Connor
 

I'm going to theorize that the "pick-up-stix" mess was caused by the
rambunctious and inexperienced unloading crew, not the mill. If they
left it that way overnight and all those boards developed a crook,
they were likely looking for new jobs the next day.
Dennis, good theory, but I watched them open the door -- there was
an incredible pile of sticks of lumber jumbled together inside the
car, nearly to the roof. The unloading crew had to remove one stick
at a time, which they stacked neatly onto a flatbed truck. I recall
it was not studs, but dimension lumber, like 2x12's and such. Some
of them were quite long, I thought.

The lumber company was just a block away but had no spur of its own,
so this was done on the local team track. (In Moorestown NJ FYI).

It's possible the load was knocked around inside the car during its
trip, which probably was from the west coast somewhere. I remember
it was a western railroad's car but don't recall which one.

Tim


Re: Freight car Distribution - Larry Kline

Ned Carey <nedspam@...>
 

Bruce Smith Wrote:
Why should "peddler freights, turns and locals" be any
different?

I am not saying this is so, I am simply asking, "Is this perhaps another exception to the G-N model?" I haven't seen it stated so clearly before but does the G-N model only apply to through freights?

It has often been said an exception to the G-N model is frequently a dead end branch line. The traffic on that line will be much less diverse than the national average as the industries may determine a more skewed mix. Couldn't that same be said about a local on the main - the mix is in part determined by the industries served by that particular train.

Rethinking the issue, one factor the dead end has that doesn't affect the local on the main - connections. Nobody chooses a car to go to an industry down the dead end branch because it is in the direction of the home road.

Ned Carey


Re: Lumber Loading

cinderandeight@...
 

Guys,
As long as we are kicking around lumber cars, and lumber yards I'd
like to relate a yard near my childhood home. Many model railroads probably
have a lumber yard as an industry, but the one near me on the PRR's West
Detroit branch line besides taking lots of cars of lumber also had contracts
to overhaul box cars. New linings, new floors. As such it was not an
uncommon sight for a string of ten or more identical box cars (often in
different lettering schemes) to roll into the yard at a time for the crews to
rebuild their interiors. I recall that the Reading had many of their 40' box
cars cycle through this lumber yard.
What does this type operation do to the "freight car distribution"
topic? Any freight car rebuilding or scrapping operation is an excuse to have
a ton of the same type cars from a given road appear on a railroad. Not
that I'd suggest you build a dozen box cars to then scrap them(?)
Rich Burg


Re: Unwrapped lumber (Was:Freight car Distribution )

mopacfirst
 

I've posted the photo I was referring to. You'll find one more interesting thing at the edge of the photo, which is what I was actually photographing and the lumber car just happened to be coupled next to it. Enjoy.

Ron Merrick

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