Ben Hom wrote:

"Or, did some western roads convert cars too?"

At least one - GN converted DS boxcars into stock cars as modeled by the Accurail 4700 series kits.

SP Pacific Lines did so in the 1930s, and T&NO did so right after WW II. Kits for the latter cars were offered by Sunshine.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

The Great Northern surely did.

Staffan Ehnbom

--- On Thu, 10/14/10, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

I think during the steam era, all livestock had to be
quarantined at the border...So, this would cause any
cross border livestock shipments to change cars.

This has been my understanding as well.  However,
there is a surviving conductor's train sheet from
the Santa Fe in Texas in the early 1950s showing an
empty CN stock car.  How it got there is an open question,
but it was there, apparently en route to being loaded.
I have several photos of CN & CP freight reefers at
locations far below the border, such as southbound
towards Los Angeles on a UP train at Ogden and at
San Diego.  It's my impression that these cars 
were carrying Canadian fish and meat products, though
I can't document that.
Richard Hendrickson

This is a good question, since I'd like to have a CN stock car or two on my layout as well.

Breezing through the web finds all sorts of interesting things on historical trans-country stock trade (including the 1952 Mexican hoof & mouth breakout killing the US/Mexican LIVE cattle trade), and a couple of things are leading me to believe that, a) we don't know as much as we think we do about US/Canadian livestock traffic, and b) there's a whole lot of mystery Canadian finished, processed meat that's going SOMEWHERE besides the Dominion of Canada, and we modelers don't know where!

A couple of links worth looking at:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1744-7976.1952.tb02277.x/abstract

I'm not about to buy this book, but "THE TRANSPORTATION FACTOR IN THE MARKETING OF CANADIAN LIVESTOCK" written in 1952 has GOT to be of interest to someone here, and definitely relates to rail movements.

http://www.geog.uvic.ca/dept/wcag/mclachlan.pdf

This is a fascinating article on the growth of Canadian stockyards, and it states that the large yard in Lethbridge was specifically built as a trans-shipment point for US and Canadian LIVE cattle. The article also has some good introductory information on Canadian packing companies. The same site also has several other intersting-looking, rail-related articles:
http://www.geog.uvic.ca/dept/wcag/publications.htm

Next, several sites found quickly referred to breeder herds being developed in twinned facilities in the US and Canada, and stock moving between the two sites. As a quick overview, here's links to articles from 1950 and 2009:
https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/44782/3/SPECULUM_v04_i01_1950_low.pdf
http://www.txfb.org/newsmanager/templates/TXFBTemplate.aspx?articleid=5319&zoneid=109

Finally, I haven't had the chance to dig through this site (yet), but it might be the best of all for our purposes:
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-516-x/sectiont/4147444-eng.htm


So at a cursory glance, although it might logically be assumed that Can-Am livestock traffic would be halted & quarrantined at the border for a trade-killing long time, that doesn't seem to be the case (necessarily; a quarrantine might have just been part of the nature of doing business). There are plenty of references to Can-Am livestock trade out there; someone just needs to dig through them all to figure out what was really going on!

Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

Victor Baird asked:
"I know the B&O and the Wabash did it. The B&O covered M26 box cars and the
Wabash convered single sheath wood cars. Perhaps the PRR and who else did this?"
 
PRR definitely did, all from automobile boxcars as they became obsolete:
Class X24 to Class K7A (HO - BLI)
Class X32 and subclasses to Class K9 (HO - Bowser)
Class X31 and subclasses to Class K11 (HO - Bowser)
 
In addition, Wabash did similiar conversions from secondhand PRR 50 ft
automobile boxcars.
 
Other roads in the eastern US converting boxcars into stock cars include B&M
(from XM-1 SS boxcars), N&W, and Erie.
 
 
"I suppose unlike western railroads, eastern roads did not warrant capital
expenditures on new cars for this dwindling traffic?"
 
The reason why the Pennsy converted the Class K9 and K11 was that the railroad
significantly GAINED stock traffic.  Early Truc-Train service from
Chicago tended to be light on tonnage, so cuts of stock cars were added to the
trains.  Once the word got out that the railroad could knock enough time off the
schedule to eliminate the requirement for a feed and water stop in Pittsburgh,
the shippers jumped on this service.  The Pennsy soon added "NF" symbol stock
trains to the schedule, but lacked the equipment to cover the new traffic.  The
railroad actrually wanted to purchase new stock cars (Class K10) but chose
instead to convert the automobile boxcars instead.
 
See Richard Burg's "The Last Stand of Stock Cars in the East" in the January
1993 issue of RMC for more information.
 
 
"Or, did some western roads convert cars too?"
 
At least one - GN converted DS boxcars into stock cars as modeled by the
Accurail 4700 series kits.
 
 
Ben Hom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was just re-examining the almost 300 photos of mostly boxcars from our era on this site and think some subjects may have been added because I had not bookmarked them and I am sure I would have the first time around.

Bill Welch

Dennis writes-

CP express reefers are relatively common in photos of Soo Line
passenger trains, surprisingly often in No. 1 & 2 close to Chicago.
The story I've heard is they were carrying fish from the lakes
around the Winnipeg area to be used to prepare Lox for Chicago's
rather large Jewish community. Soo 1 & 2 made a good connection with
109 and 110, The Winnipeger, in St. Paul Union Depot, with an
express car also going through.

Dennis, I believe that you must mean gefilte fish, not lox (salmon).
Such fish (gefilte) usually has to be Kosher where a Rabbi makes an
attestation at the time the fish is killed and processed. My knowledge
of this arcane fish industry at that time is that such attestation was
almost almost always made nearer the point of consumption, such that
shipment of such fish- most commonly carp- had to be made live. This
required at that time cars with recirculating tanks (usually baggage
cars) with messengers on board to look after things. I know personally
examples on the Milwaukee (Milwaukee, NYC, and B&O baggage cars

In this regard, I am doubtful about such fish (processed) from
Manitoba being shipped to Chicago for such purposes.

However, I would well believe that these cars were carrying fresh
Pickerel (English Canada), Walleye Pike (the rest of the world)- same
delectable fish, of which the massive Lakes Manitoba and Winnipeg
still to this day support large commercial fisheries. Whitefish, a
still-prolific fish in Manitoba, and used at times for gefilte fish,
could also have been shipped. However, in steam era times, the Lake
Michigan whitefish fishery was still very active, and the lower
Chicago River would have numbers of commercial fishing boats lined up
hawking whitefish over their rails to eagerly awaiting buyers (my
father among them). Why ship coals to Newcastle?

Nowadays, this industry has changed. Rabbis are now hired to be at the
point of catch-and-processing, and the shipment of live fish for
gefilte fish has all but disappeared. I was once asked by a neighbor
fishery-business property owner in Iowa whether or not I was Jewish;
and if I was, I could earn $60,000/year to help my retirement by
becoming a rabbi and sitting for a few hours to attest to each live
fish at their moment of doom! I told him, regretfully, that I could
not qualify, but that he was very thoughtful to think of me.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

Ditto

Rich Orr

Hench the Badger 155 Anthem.

Bill Welch

N&W's Class SK stock cars were converted from Class BLa boxcars; these boxcars began life as Class BL, basically a door and a-half clone of the USRA single sheathed boxcars.  Most, if not all, were made single door and reclassed as BLa.  The N&W cars had the Chicago Climax Radial Roof.



I have been trying to get a model of these done in HO for years.  I provided extensive drawings and info to Funaro in 2001 but he never finished the project.  I keep hoping someone out there will come through!



Jim Brewer

Glenwood MD

I know the B&O and the Wabash did it. The B&O covered M26 box cars and the Wabash convered single sheath wood cars. Perhaps the PRR and who else did this? I suppose unlike western railrods, eastern roads did not warrant capital expenditures on new cars for this dwindling traffic? Or, did some western roads convert cars too?

Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana

Almost out-of-scope for this time period, but I remember being surprised in being able to photograph a 36' (5' door) CP stock car, number 275098, coupled to a much more modern 40' CP stock car on an Illinois Central siding in Osage, Iowa in 1960. The cars were empty, so may have arrived with lading other than livestock. U.S. routing presumably SOO-M&StL-IC.

Dan Sweeney, Jr.
Alexandria, VA

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

The 8-hatch cars were predominantly (not exclusively) used for meat
and fish. I remember the gray CN cars in Los Angeles when I was a
kid in the 1950s (and was excited that Varney had a gray CN reefer
model, though on their generic metal reefer body). I don't know for
sure but would guess these were probably export meat from Canada.
Tony Thompson

Tony, That's a good news for me too. I like this car and was wondering if I can use some along SP tracks.
GHQ have a good kit in N scale:
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/zm18.html
Cheers
Enzo Fortuna
Modeling SP in Italy
http://enzofortuna.altervista.org/MySP_home.htm

On Oct 14, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Don wrote:

While I have purposely avoided the waterbase paints....

Arrrrrgh!

<on my semantic soapbox>
The paints named in this thread, Polyscale, Scalecoat II, etc, are NOT "water based". These paints are all or almost all based on an alcohol solvent. Because alcohol is water soluble, these paints are water SOLUBLE, but they are most definitely not "water based"!
<off my semantic soapbox>

Sorry Don, your comment finally put me over the edge with this thread, but this should be no means indicate that I am picking on you exclusively! <VBG>

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
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__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On Oct 14, 2010, at 7:56 AM, soolinehistory wrote:

I think during the steam era, all livestock had to be quarantined
at the border, at least photos of Portal ND, the border crossing of
the CPR / Soo Line show a building that is clearly marked a
quarantine shed. So, this would cause any cross border livestock
shipments to change cars.

This has been my understanding as well. However, there is a
surviving conductor's train sheet from the Santa Fe in Texas in the
early 1950s showing an empty CN stock car. How it got there is an
open question, but it was there, apparently en route to being loaded.

CP express reefers are relatively common in photos of Soo Line
passenger trains, surprisingly often in No. 1 & 2 close to Chicago.
The story I've heard is they were carrying fish from the lakes
around the Winnipeg area to be used to prepare Lox for Chicago's
rather large Jewish community. Soo 1 & 2 made a good connection
with 109 and 110, The Winnipeger, in St. Paul Union Depot, with an
express car also going through.

I don't know the situation with freight reefers.

I have several photos of CN & CP freight reefers at locations far
below the border, such as southbound towards Los Angeles on a UP
train at Ogden and at San Diego. It's my impression that these cars
were carrying Canadian fish and meat products, though I can't
document that.

Richard Hendrickson

--- In STMFC@..., "Douglas Harding" <doug.harding@...> wrote:

To paint acrylics (water based paints) requires the large tip and corresponding needle on the Paasche H-1.

I agree, the secret to painting today's water borne acrylics is a big tip. These paints are actually acrylic emulsions, with tiny globuals of solvent based paint floating around in soapy water. No matter how much water you add to thin the paint, the globuals remain the same size.

Dennis

Rob Erickson wrote:

Group, during the 1940s and 1950s, would loaded Canadian stock cars and ice reefers have been sent into the United States? If so, what were some of the common service routes? I'd like to be able to justify building some 36-ft stock cars and 8-hatch reefers.

The 8-hatch cars were predominantly (not exclusively) used for meat and fish. I remember the gray CN cars in Los Angeles when I was a kid in the 1950s (and was excited that Varney had a gray CN reefer model, though on their generic metal reefer body). I don't know for sure but would guess these were probably export meat from Canada.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Wheel reports provide evidence that CN,CP stock cars were not uncommon in Vt and Northern NY.Armand Premo

Ditto



Jim Brewer

--- In STMFC@..., Clark Cooper <csc@...> wrote:

I have no problems spraying Polly Scale with my 'H' brush. It's
easier with a larger tip. The 'H' brush has three available tip sizes
(H-1, H-3, and H-5), but is typically sold with the smallest (H-1).
The complete tip assemblies only cost $10.95 retail from Paasche:

http://www.paascheairbrush.com/store/search.html

I thin about 25% with distilled water, pressure at around 25 pounds;
clean the brush with cheap ammonia glass cleaner, occasionally
disassemble and scrub out with micro-brushes.

-Clark Cooper

While I have purposely avoided the waterbase paints after trying them some years ago it would seem one would want a #5 tip on a Paasche to use them. You mention the #1 tip as being sold on most of them, Clark. That strikes me as a bit fine for most good model paints, Accupaint, Scalecoat, etc. I have sold a number of the Paashe's over
the last forty years, long before Walthers began carrying them, and found the #3 tip worked best for most customers. But the #1 or #5 tip was a good alternate to have to meet the needs of others. I have never used anything but the #1 and #3 myself but, as indicated, I don't care for the water based paints. With the #3 tip most issues can be cured
by adjusting the pressure and/or the dilution ratio. I have found that many people try to paint with too little pressure. With Accupaint in particular one needs 25-30 pounds. Gordon Cannon had the same experience with Accupaint and would use little else.

Cordially, Don Valentine

I agree no stock but there may have been ice reefers.The Central Vermont
was heavy with products coming south from Canada: lumber, newsprint,
cars.
Bob Moeller
--- In STMFC@..., "rdepennsyfan" <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:

Group, during the 1940s and 1950s, would loaded Canadian stock cars

and ice reefers have been sent into the United States? If so, what were
some of the common service routes? I'd like to be able to justify
building some 36-ft stock cars and 8-hatch reefers.

Thanks, Rob Erickson