Richard, is there a date when Will took the photo?

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

I understand that Richard. I was responding to his thought that asphalt would not be shipped far, but wherever it is used, it has to be shipped from a refinery.

CJ Riley




________________________________
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 2:45:07 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Overland Gatx on eBay


On May 14, 2010, at 12:04 PM, cj riley wrote:

I think you will find that "asphalt" as applied to a road is
locally manufactured and shipped by truck. Liquid asphalt is the
petroleum based binder that is mixed with aggregate to make the
paving material Liqid asphalt likely is shipped from the refinery
and could travel longer distances.

True, but Western Asphalt was in Santa Maria, CA and Ned models
somewhere in the wilderness east of the Mississippi, where there was
no chance that a California Despatch Line tank car assigned to
Western Asphalt would have turned up, even by accident.

Richard Hendrickson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On May 14, 2010, at 12:04 PM, cj riley wrote:

I think you will find that "asphalt" as applied to a road is
locally manufactured and shipped by truck. Liquid asphalt is the
petroleum based binder that is mixed with aggregate to make the
paving material Liqid asphalt likely is shipped from the refinery
and could travel longer distances.

True, but Western Asphalt was in Santa Maria, CA and Ned models
somewhere in the wilderness east of the Mississippi, where there was
no chance that a California Despatch Line tank car assigned to
Western Asphalt would have turned up, even by accident.

Richard Hendrickson

Could be an insulated ICC 103. I think many insulated tank cars
were 103's, not 104's. The ICC specifications require that 104's
be insulated, but it does not say 103's must be non-insulated.
In fact, the ICC spec says that a 104 is a 103 with 2" of insulation
and a minimum 2% expansion dome.

A 105 is a high pressure car and has no expansion dome.

Tim O'Connor

Bruce Smith wrote:

Just to be clear, I think the Overland car is not an ICC 105.

Definitely an ICC 104.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

On May 14, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Brian Carlson wrote:

Richard wrote:
Bruce, you owe me and Tony a beer at Naperville.

Richard Hendrickson

Please no fire alarm this year, that sucked!

Brian Carlson

And how is it that I end up owing Richard and Tony a beer, EVERY year? <G>

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On May 14, 2010, at 1:28 PM, Ned Carey wrote:

Athearn "chemical tank" with a Precision hood and
perhaps a Sunshine frame to make the ICC 105 car.

There is an Overland Insulated GATX car on E-bay right now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=120563949018&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

I would bid myself but I am not sure asphalt would travel across the country.

Ned Carey

Ned,

Just to be clear, I think the Overland car is not an ICC 105.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Richard wrote:
Bruce, you owe me and Tony a beer at Naperville.

Richard Hendrickson
 
Please no fire alarm this year, that sucked!
 
Brian Carlson

<I would bid myself but I am not sure asphalt would travel across the country.>




I think you will find that "asphalt" as applied to a road is locally manufactured and shipped by truck. Liquid asphalt is the petroleum based binder that is mixed with aggregate to make the paving material Liqid asphalt likely is shipped from the refinery and could travel longer distances.

CJ Riley

On May 14, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Joe Walder wrote:

Tony -

OK, thanks. I hope that you and Richard remain on good terms (and
I hope I didn't open up a can of worms here)?

Joe, any inquiry about GATC tank cars opens up a huge can of worms.
However, Tony is absolutely correct that the designation for wine
cars, cotton oil cars, etc. was AAR 203, not ICC 203, since they
carried non-regulatory commodities and thus were not subject to ICC
regulation. I now know better, but unfortunately mistakes made in
print (or in clinics) tend to live on, as in the case of Bruce
Smith's post. Bruce, you owe me and Tony a beer at Naperville.

Richard Hendrickson

On May 14, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Ned Carey wrote:

Athearn "chemical tank" with a Precision hood and

perhaps a Sunshine frame to make the ICC 105 car.

There is an Overland Insulated GATX car on E-bay right now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=120563949018&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

I would bid myself but I am not sure asphalt would travel across
the country.

Highly unlikely, Ned. But that model, including the lettering, is
dead-on accurate, as it was developed from a Will Whittaker photo in
my collection, so it's an attractive offering to anyone who models
the SP or Santa Fe in California.

Richard Hendrickson

On May 14, 2010, at 9:49 AM, Ian Cranstone wrote:

On 2010-05-14, at 12:24 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

And I'll take exception to one of
Bruce's points, that pre-WWII cars were probably Type 30s. In fact,
GATC built thousands of tanks cars for its own service between the
teens and the late '20s before the Type 30 design was developed, and
most of them survived into the mid-'50s.

GATC was also a partner (with Canadian Car & Foundry) in Canadian
General Transit, formed in 1932. In the post-WW II years, a good
number of these older GATC cars apparently found their way to the
CGTX fleet, including a large number of 1917-built cars. I don't
know how much of an impact this had on the composition of the GATC
fleet itself during this era, but one presumes that there would
have been a decline in older cars with GATX markings.

Not enough to make much of a difference, Ian. The CGTX fleet
consisted of 1243 cars in 7/43 and 2472 in 1/53, and some of those
additional cars were new. The GATC fleet in 1/53 was 45,632, by
comparison with which the cars transferred to CGTX were insignificant
in number.

Richard Hendrickson

Athearn "chemical tank" with a Precision hood and

perhaps a Sunshine frame to make the ICC 105 car.

There is an Overland Insulated GATX car on E-bay right now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120563949018&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

I would bid myself but I am not sure asphalt would travel across the country.

Ned Carey

Tony Thompson wrote:
"There was an outstanding article in _Mainline Modeler_ back in
October 1985 by Mark Feddersen on such a conversion, though his
goal was an ICC 104. He did shorten and redetail an
Athearn "chemical" tank with a Tichy underframe. The Tichy does not
represent a GATC underframe--one could shorten and redetail an
Athearn underframe for the purpose--but it's a fine article, despite
Hundman's printing it in gray letters on a black background."

Indeed - Mark's techniques are well worth studying even after 20
years, as they provide a way to scratchbash tank cars that are not
currently available. Mark donated the Becco Peroxide tank car model
built for his article in the Janaury 1986 Prototype Modeler to RPI.
About five years ago, I pulled the model off the layout for repair as
after 20 years of service on the NEB&W it needed some TLC. The
creativity in the design of the model and the degree of workmanship
are still exemplary today.


Ben Hom

Bruce Smith wrote:

. . . I don't know of any cars, although one could adapt the Athearn "chemical tank" with a Precision hood and perhaps a Sunshine frame to make the ICC 105 car.

There was an outstanding article in _Mainline Modeler_ back in October 1985 by Mark Feddersen on such a conversion, though his goal was an ICC 104. He did shorten and redetail an Athearn "chemical" tank with a Tichy underframe. The Tichy does not represent a GATC underframe--one could shorten and redetail an Athearn underframe for the purpose--but it's a fine article, despite Hundman's printing it in gray letters on a black background.
Bruce, do you know the Precision part number for the valve casing?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony -
 
OK, thanks.  I hope that you and Richard remain on good terms (and I hope I didn't open up a can of worms here)?
 
Joe




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bruce Smith wrote:

Richard Hendrickson has given clinics on GATC cars . . . he stated that many GATC cars were not used for petroleum, and were ICC 203 designs, with frangible disks rather than safety valves.

I sure wish Richard hadn't made that mis-statement--now it's getting repeated. There in fact is NOT any such thing as an ICC 203. The 203 designation is for ARA and AAR cars only, and is for non- regulated commodities. Wine cars were usually AAR 203 or AAR 203W. Check any ORER.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I looked at one of mine, and it took me awhile before I realized it was an Atlas model.

I also have realized it has the as-built 1937 paint scheme, and I know about the Speedwitch decal, and thanks to this group I know I can add a steel running board.

Can anyone recommend a Floquil color match?

Ron Merrick

On 2010-05-14, at 12:24 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

And I'll take exception to one of
Bruce's points, that pre-WWII cars were probably Type 30s. In fact,
GATC built thousands of tanks cars for its own service between the
teens and the late '20s before the Type 30 design was developed, and
most of them survived into the mid-'50s.

GATC was also a partner (with Canadian Car & Foundry) in Canadian General Transit, formed in 1932. In the post-WW II years, a good number of these older GATC cars apparently found their way to the CGTX fleet, including a large number of 1917-built cars. I don't know how much of an impact this had on the composition of the GATC fleet itself during this era, but one presumes that there would have been a decline in older cars with GATX markings.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...

Richard -
 
Yeah, I kinda liked reading the description of each tank car series in the 1953 ORER.  Could it get any more general here (sorry the bad pun towards the "G" in GATX)?  Almost every other car description in the ORER helps you nail-down (almost) what a car would look like.  That's not the same for tank cars.  It makes for really frustrating research.
 
Joe