Has anyone evaluated the accuracy of the newly announced Walthers HO Gold Line ACF Type 21 10,000-Gallon Tank Car? For example, is the Sinclair SDRX #26168 correct?

The recent Central Ohio Prototype Modeler Meet in Marion, Ohio was a
success. Many gathered at the historic Marion Union Station to share ideas,
take in clinics, and watch a steady parade of trains roll by the depot. Over
400 models were on display, which complemented historic displays of
interlocking tower hardware and local Marion rail news. The original web
site has been updated with a few images of the meet.
http://www.hansmanns.org/meet/index.htm

Additional event images can be seen here:
http://www.pbase.com/ehansmann/2010_central_ohio_prototype_meet

And event organizer Denis Blake has a Facebook site rolling with more images
and updates.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Central-Ohio-Prototype-Modelers-Meet/326645470
797

Planning has already started for another Central Ohio Prototype Modeler Meet
next year in Marion, Ohio.

Eric


Eric Hansmann
Assistant Publicist





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Al D. (not signing his full name) wrote:

I have a freelanced bedroom sized HO layout set in Northern California in the late 1940s. My layout is loosely based on the McCloud River Railroad in that logging is a primary customer on the railroad and that interchanges exist on East and West end of the railroad. I am currently using Rivarossi 40' skeleton log cars (apparently no longer being produced) for the majority of my fresh cut log transportation.

Would the majority / entirely of my skeleton cars likely be owned by my railroad (the Burney, Redding & Western - BR&W) - I am trying to decide whether to rename / number the cars I already have? I will have a small sawmill on my railroad, but I think I will model that the BR&W is a net exporter of fresh cut logs to saw mills on other railroads - is this plausible / feasible?

Pretty likely the railroad would own the cars--in most cases it's either all railroad or all lumber company. (Sometimes of course they are one and the same.) So choose the lettering you like. I would really doubt that export beyond your own sawmill would happen.

I have a dozen or more 40' Athearn pulpwood cars and would like to fit them into my operations; in late 1940s, would the pulpwood cars be loaded at same locations at the full logs for the skeleton cars, or would the shorter pulpwood loads be cut / created at the saw mill?

Those cars are too new for the late 1940s, and in any case pulpwood is a non-existent cargo in northern California in that era. Sell 'em at a swap meet and forget pulpwood--if you want to be prototypical. You might consider wood chips, though, a cargo just getting going at the end of the 1940s.

I also have a few of the Bachmann 40' log "flat cars". A friend told be these cars were more typically used "back East" and that the skeleton cars were more populur in th West - any comments?

Old flat cars, re-equipped with log bunks and/or chain hold- downs, were common in the west for log loading. You can certainly mix them with skeletons, but do convert them so they are log cars, NOT flat cars with stakes.

Finally, and this may be more of a RYOPS / OPSIG group question, but does anyone know or have any info on how logging operations can be modeled? Does the logging camp / railhead put in an "empty order" similar to a mine ordering empty open hoppers?

On a lumber company rail operation, or a short line very beholden to the lumber company, I doubt there is much formality to what was done. Probably all the empty log cars just went back to the woods for use. Alternatively, a phone call is all that's needed.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Al wrote:
<Would the majority/entirely [all] of my skeleton cars likely be owned by
<my railroad (the Burney, Redding & Western - BR&W) - I am trying to
<decide whether to rename/number the cars I already have?

Either the railroad or the lumber company would have owned all of the cars.
In the case of the Yosemite Valley Railroad and Yosemite Lumber Company, the
railroad owned the cars and they were lettered for the YVRR. In some cases
(such as the West Side Lumber Company), the lumber company was the railroad
and the cars thus were owned by the lumber company. I'm assuming that your
BR&W isn't a logging railroad and just hauls the log cars from the lumber
company area to the mill (and then hauls the finished lumber from the mill
to interchanges with a mainline railroad).

<I will have
<a small sawmill on my railroad, but I think I will model that the BR&W
<is a net exporter of fresh cut logs to saw mills on other railroads - is
<this plausible/feasible?

Possible but pretty unusual. The Sugar Pine Lumber Company which operated
the Minarets and Western out of Fresno, CA made a huge investment in their
railroad, mill, camps, equipment, etc. but didn't have enough sugar pine
timber tracts to support that investment. They therefore concocted a deal
where they would buy into Yosemite Lumber Company holdings and have the YV
ship the cut logs from the YLCo. to Merced and then have the SP haul the
same log cars from Merced to the M&W mill near Fresno. But, when the time
came, the SP refused to haul the small YV bulkhead log cars over their line
and insisted that the logs be reloaded onto SP cars which was
cost-prohibitive. I can understand the SP's position since the Yosemite
Lumber Co. didn't secure their log loads in a way which could be completely
trouble-free for the 60+ mile trip from Merced to Fresno. In addition, the
YV log cars still had arch bar trucks. So, it never took place. It is
possible that it was done somewhere but it would be very unusual and costly.

<I have a dozen or more 40' Athearn pulpwood
<cars and would like to fit them into my operations; in late 1940s, would
<the pulpwood cars be loaded at same locations at the full logs for the
<skeleton cars, or would the shorter pulpwood loads be cut/created at
<the saw mill?

I don't think that there was much if any business in pulpwood in California
nor were there any paper plants that used pulpwood in the manufacture of
paper. Generally, pulpwood comes from fast-growing trees raised just for
this purpose. As far as I know (and at least for the YLCo. and other west
coast lumber companies that I've read about), the branches that might be
useful for pulpwood were cut and discarded in the woods as well as
undersized timber small enough for use as pulpwood.

< I also have a few of the Bachmann 40' log "flat cars". A friend told
<be these cars were more typically used "back East" and that the skeleton
<cars were more populur in th West - any comments?

I know basically nothing about east coast logging but skeleton and
disconnects were popular on the west coast (the disconnects could be used
with extra-long logs). But log flats were also used...both the M&W and YV
used them. But the Bachmann log cars look a lot like standard old-time
truss-road flat cars but sold with a log load. The problem with these cars
is that the stakes and stake pockets would get ripped off by a large load of
California-sized logs...chains or cables were used rather than stakes. The
other problem with these cars is that you need a way to unload the logs
quickly and easily. One way to do that with flat cars is to first equip them
with bunks which are I-beam shaped affairs which got the load off of the
flat car deck. They also had chocks attached to the ends of the bunks which
helped keep the logs from rolling off. To unload the cars at the millpond,
you let the chocks on the millpond side of the car slide out of the way
after the cables/chains were removed and the logs would roll off, especially
if the unloading track was tipped toward the mill pond. Another technique
was to put a cable hooked to the brow log under the load the use an A-frame
to pull the free end of the cable upward, causing the logs to roll off.

< Finally, and this may be more of a RYOPS / OPSIG group question, but
<does anyone know or have any info on how logging operations can be
<modeled? Does the logging camp / railhead put in an "empty order"
<similar to a mine ordering empty open hoppers?

No, if the logs are being shipped over a mainline railroad (which I'm
assuming you want to do), the railroad picked up all of the loads at the
"interchange" (some place were the lumber company could spot loaded log
cars) and hauled them to the mill. Any empties at the mill were then picked
up and returned to the interchange. The lumber company takes care of getting
empties at the loading spurs in the woods and getting loads to the
interchange. So, it is basically, pick up everything at the interchange and
haul it to the mill and pick all of the empties and take them back. Another
aspect though...the Yosemite Lumber Company had a supply car which was
hauled to Merced Falls, the site of their mill and as far as I can
determine, loaded with supplies and food and hauled back to Incline where it
was returned to the woods. There are also photos of Caterpillar tractors on
log cars being hauled up the incline so that must have been either taken
somewhere for servicing or taken out of the woods before winter arrived and
returned the next spring. The lumber company also had road building
equipment constantly extending the grade and needed Bunker C fuel for their
Shay locomotives. So, there are more loads than just logs associated with
logging operations.

There are numerous books at logging operations which can answer a lot of
questions about logging in general. Pick a prototype near the general area
where you are modeling since slightly different techniques were used on the
West Coast depending on the logs being felled, etc. You also want one where
the mill was on the mainline (like your BR&W) and not in the woods where it
was served directly by the lumber company locomotives (such as the West Side
Lumber Company...the 3' narrow gauge West Side hauled the logs directly to
the mill and the Sierra Railroad then hauled the cut lumber from the mill to
the SP and ATSF interchanges). I don't discuss much of the logging itself in
my book on the YV but Hank Johnston's book, Railroads of Yosemite Valley,
does a good job of illustrating the logging operations connected with the YV
which is an operation similar to what you want to model. It is available in
paperback from Amazon (used) for as low at $10. You'll learn a lot...


Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Greetings,
I have a freelanced bedroom sized HO layout set in Northern California in the late 1940s. My layout is loosely based on the McCloud River Railroad in that logging is a primary customer on the railroad and that interchanges exist on East and West end of the railroad. I am currently using Rivarossi 40' skeleton log cars (apparently no longer being produced) for the majority of my fresh cut log transportation. I have some general questions about logging operations and the freight cars used to support logging and I hope some group members can provide some answers or links/pointers.

Would the majority / entirely of my skeleton cars likely be owned by my railroad (the Burney, Redding & Western - BR&W) - I am trying to decide whether to rename / number the cars I already have? I will have a small sawmill on my railroad, but I think I will model that the BR&W is a net exporter of fresh cut logs to saw mills on other railroads - is this plausible / feasible? I have a dozen or more 40' Athearn pulpwood cars and would like to fit them into my operations; in late 1940s, would the pulpwood cars be loaded at same locations at the full logs for the skeleton cars, or would the shorter pulpwood loads be cut / created at the saw mill?

I also have a few of the Bachmann 40' log "flat cars". A friend told be these cars were more typically used "back East" and that the skeleton cars were more populur in th West - any comments?

Finally, and this may be more of a RYOPS / OPSIG group question, but does anyone know or have any info on how logging operations can be modeled? Does the logging camp / railhead put in an "empty order" similar to a mine ordering empty open hoppers?

Thanks in advance.

Al D.

--- In STMFC@..., Jim Hayes <jimhayes97225@...> wrote:

I've added a new page to my website - "Instructions"
www.sunshinekits.com/instructions.html

Thanks Jim.

--- In STMFC@..., "Rupert & Maureen" <gamlenz@> wrote:

"The Burlington Refrigerator Express Company has ordered 100 cane cars of 15 tons capacity from the Gregg Car Company."

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

BREX was part of the Fruit Growers Express consortium, which was very much present in Florida at least; but the 1/43 ORER doesn't show any cane cars for BREX, FGEX, Western Fruit Express, or National Car.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Fifteen tons capacity is way lighter than anything that would have run on the US railroad system, and the Gregg Car Co. was known as a builder of cars for export; I don't think they ever built anything for use on the US railroad system.

I would suspect these are cane cars for a plantation railroad, either in Cuba, Central America, or possibly the SE US. The real question is why was BREX involved. It is possible that it's an error on the part of the original publication.

Dennis

BREX was part of the Fruit Growers Express consortium, which was very much present in Florida at least; but the 1/43 ORER doesn't show any cane cars for BREX, FGEX, Western Fruit Express, or National Car.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

In the January 1927 Railway & Locomotive Engineering magazine (downloadable with a number of other issues at www.archive.net) is the following



"The Burlington Refrigerator Express Company has ordered 100 cane cars of 15 tons capacity from the Gregg Car Company."



I am aware of the sort of cars used to carry sugar cane but I can't see the connection to BREX, especially I understand that Florida and Louisiana are the usual regions for that crop and therefore outside the normal BREX sphere of operations.



Any suggestions please.



Rupert Gamlen

Auckland NZ

Thanks for the info about the photos in CBC. I have 1940 and 1956 and no luck in them. I will keep looking and maybe the local library might have it.

Mark

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Rich, your information is incorrect.
CAST IRON wheels were prohibited only for NEW cars in 1958.
They were prohibited as REPLACEMENT wheels after 1963.
They were outlawed for interchange in 1968.
RIBBED wheels were never outlawed as such. Some all-steel forged wheels had ribs.

All correct; and plenty of cast iron wheels had plain backs, too. Ribs are NOT a spotting feature of iron wheels.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I've added a new page to my website - "Instructions"
www.sunshinekits.com/instructions.html This new page contains, what else,
Sunshine kit instructions. I still have some of my own kit instructions to
add. When I'm done loading mine, I may ask for contributions from you good
people.

Comments and suggestions welcome. Error reporting too.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com

Perfect. The 3100 does have the stake pocket arrangement of the Proto car, I have a good inventory of the Tangent 70-ton truck, so looks like this is a good project. Now to add it to the other hundred or so that I think will not take me much time to do.....

Ron Merrick

Ray

you beat me to it, just looked it up.

Jeff Coleman

I believe the NKP 3100 series
bulkhead flats were as built and not converted but I'm not
at home, will double check the NKP book later today.
Jeff Coleman

Nope. The 3100s were built in 1951, and 15 of the 150 cars had homemade bulkheads made and installed in 1960.

Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

So, now, does anybody have a good end view of the bulkhead
on the NKP 3000 series cars that were so converted?  Would
it be close to steal the parts from an IM car? 
Ron Merrick

Hi Ron,

I've got a few shots of 3100's with bulkheads (NOT the 3000s; they're different cars, built ten years earlier, and which NEVER got bulkheads), including a top-down angle shot of 3121. The IM bulkheads will work; I just compared them to the prototype, and besides a couple of minor details they look VERY close.

Be careful as to which cars you add a bulkhead to. The NKP only converted 15 of these cars in March and April, 1960: 3105, 3106, 3115, 3116, 3121, 3124, 3126, 3128, 3155, 3160, 3177, 3184, 3186, 3188 and 3189.

Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

Only book I have is the one NKP shares with WAB and others, and all it shows is one of the 42' 12-stake flats as a TOFC car, p. 73.

Ron Merrick

I believe the NKP 3100 series bulkhead flats were as built and not converted but I'm not at home, will double check the NKP book later today.

Jeff Coleman

So, now, does anybody have a good end view of the bulkhead on the NKP 3000 series cars that were so converted? Would it be close to steal the parts from an IM car? It looks like one of those simple ones made from channel, but side-only views aren't usually good enough to tell.

There is a Hendrickson article on the Proto flats in June and August 1999 RMJ, but I believe it's the flats only and not later conversions.

Ron Merrick

Here's a bulkhead flat version:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nkp/nkp3116ajs.jpg

I'd use the A-Line style A, and those are the Tangent 70-ton trucks under the car pictured.

I believe the kit steps were designed to fit behind the carside, so you might discard those and add the A-line steps, after adding a bit of styrene behind the side if it's too thin to drill. (Mine all have the kit steps, and they don't look too thick to me, but I seem to have put wire grabs in the ones I can see on the railroad.

BTW, I have forgotten what I used to glue the deck on, but probably Shoe Goo or similar. Several of them have peeled up in a reverse curve (upward about an inch back of the end, then back down at the very end). The ones I've caught probably were repaired with ACC, but I just found a new curly one.