G-N versus Consist Data for train construction

Mike Brock <brockm@...>

After several days of reading various views on the value of the G-N
hypothesis AS FAR AS PROVIDING A GUIDE FOR BUILDING A BOX CAR FLEET, I think the following applies...not unlike Charlie
Vlk's conclusion.

First, a small minority [ including myself ] of modelers on the STMFC have
access to actual frt train consists. There are those that cover the UP from
Laramie to Rawlins in 1938, 1947, 1949, 1951, and for Cheyenne to
Laramie...1956. Given the relatively small number of trains covered...34 during about a month in
the 1949 book...compared to the number operating [ the ratio is about
1/35 ], the consist information simply is too small to reach definitive
conclusions about the other 34 trains in a given day...let alone what
happened during the other 11 months. OTOH, the G-N hypothesis does give a
possible population over the long run if one makes certain assumptions...for
example, that "away" cars were more or less distributed randomly among other RR's. The actual
train consists appear to deviate considerably at times from the G-N
hypothesis [ the infamous SP cars for example but others as well ] but,
again, this is a short run view.

Those that have actual consists might like to model them even with
compression. Uh oh. For those few who don't know [ surely they care <G> ], I have video of a UP frt train pulling 36 SP box cars in a train of 96 cars. That is 37.5% SP box cars. OK...if I assume a max train length [ compression due to layout size ] of 35 cars, the train will need 13 SP box cars and, given that I compress to 8 frt trains down from 35 in a day, I'll probably need about 6 more SP box cars so that they are represented in the other 7 trains. That means that I will need 19 SP box cars in my fleet. However, SP box cars only represent 4% of the total national fleet. So, if I use the G-N hypothesis as a guide I'll need about
475 box cars in order for me to provide the SP cars. However, I
find that an EJ&E box car is in one of the trains in my
frt conductor book. EJ&E box cars represent only .002 of the national fleet. Hence, [ 0.95 cars ] I can have almost one car [ well, I'll leave off one of the cut levers ]. However, there is an FEC box car showing in a video near Hermosa Tunnel in 1953. FEC had 190 box cars...or 0.0002 of the national fleet. My 475 car population will provide me with 0.095 cars. That might get me 4 ribs on an end. Nooooo problem. I'll just increase my box car population to 4750. That will just about get me the car [ again, missing a cut lever ] and frequent visits to a therapist in Orlando.

The G-N theory is interesting and useful because it tells us
that box cars populated the various RR's in proportions somewhat similar to the national fleet over "long" periods of time. It doesn't appear to help much in modeling trains because trains often were "designed"
for specific tasks [ a lumber train, for instance ] and such a train might draw cars from a year's population at rates not similar to other trains. IOW, a model lumber train on the UP
originating from Cal might require 15 SP box cars while a model merchandise train from the northwest might require no SP box cars. Those of us with frt train consists are fortunate IF we are modelers modeling real trains...even those compressed...because we can simply acquire the cars we need [ or try ]. Fortunately for me I only have consists for about 70 trains in two different yrs. Those without such consists are left to use the G-N hypothesis to provide a frt car population. I don't know what one without consists would do to build individual trains...I suppose some manipulation of the G-N data. It can be done, of course, but the frt train consists I have access to seem to show trains of cars NOT in the mode of distribution that G-N proposes. For example, my frt conductor book shows a train of 40 MTY reefers...all but 3 PFE, 2 box cars in the middle of the reefers [ one loaded GM&O going to Butte, MT ], 2 tank cars and 26 box cars loaded with bauxite ore headed to the Northwest...not one UP box car [ or PA ] in the mix. There were 4 CN box cars, however, and 3 Frisco, 3 Q and, of course, the required NP. Not exactly your national fleet. I would also think that some sort of "small number" factor would need to be used with the G-N. How else to get that FEC car?

Mike Brock

D&RGW General Arrangement Drawings for Flat Cars on eBay

rwitt_2000

Gentlemen:

There are two general arrangement drawings listed on eBay for the D&RGW.

Series 22200-22249 built 1951 with bulkheads for canister service (the
set includes a 8x10 photo), Item number:170472813001

Series 23000-23099 built 1957, Item number:170472814830

Happy bidding,

Bob Witt

Re: CGW 1934 X29

Clark Propst

Ron, the late CGW X29 style cars I have on the computer are all 87000s with Coil-Elliptic trucks.
Clark Propst

Clark Propst

One of the older local modelers told me about working Saturdays while still in school unloading box cars. Again, being thin he was put in the car to hand out the first pieces. He said sometimes he'd have to work for a 1/2 hr of longer to get the first piece out. He also said he really enjoyed the smell of the fresh wood.

NP 26619 LUMBER 119 ALBERT LEA BACK HAUL

The car listed above was in an M&StL Minneapolis to Peoria time freight. This car must be ping-ponging across the railroad waiting for a buyer?

Clark Propst

Greg Martin

I'm stumped. Why would there be no lumber on flat cars in Oct-Dec of 1951? Was this the time period after the Streamliner accident (a piece of lumber shifted on a flat car, and broke the windows of a passing Streamliner, showering the passengers with broken glass) ??

Regards,

-Jeff

Jeff,

You have to look at what generally shipped on flatcars during this era and understand the commodity as well as the industry. In all freight movements there is a correlation to the commodities. As Dennis said (and I agree and I am sure Tony will as well) that most cars loaded with dimensional lumber moved in boxcars (think weather protect and the weather of your snapshot period). The rule is timber moves on flatcars. Historically in the lumber business timber doesn't move much at all during late fall and winter, the inventory is run down to nearly nothing at the lumber yards, timber doesn't yard well. But if you were to move your snapshot forward the lumber industry does move in much higher volumes starting in late January through the last week of May, then it cycles down through the end of August, September is flat to down with a slight pick up about the 10th of October and if the market is good as well as the weather the market runs until the first week in December and then goes quiet. If the storms of November come early the market dies until late January again.

If the national economy has a recession as it did in the mid 50s all bets are off.

Greg Martin

Dave Nelson

.pdf's. They are from 1904, 1912, 1913, and 1917.

Use the search terms railway equipment register and specify full view only.

Dave Nelson

Re: CGW 1934 X29

mopacfirst

I'll refine my original question just a bit.

By the end of this time frame (1960), were there very many of the Dalman two-level trucks still around on these CGW cars? The CGW color guide suggests not, but I'm curious if this is a statistical quirk based on the photos that made it into the book.

The coil-elliptic spring truck, I can certainly see that.

Ron Merrick

--- In STMFC@..., "brianleppert@..." <brianleppert@...> wrote:

Ron, The CGW 85000 and 89000 series box cars came with Dalman 2-Level trucks (available from Tahoe Model Works). However, the 87000 series cars were built with Coil-Elliptic trucks, where a leaf spring is centered between the coil springs (also available from TMW).

Those leaf springs worked fine as long as they stayed lubricated, from what I've read. But they tended to dry out and were removed in later years, resulting in a double truss truck with a wide gap between the springs (and also from TMW).

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

Aley, Jeff A

First of all, "THANKS" to Tim, Tom, and Dennis for describing how lumberyards worked back in the 1950's.

Second of all, a quick perusal of several UP Frt Conductor's books showed something surprising:

There was PLENTY of lumber shipped in box cars, especially in SP cars (no surprise there).
But there were ZERO flat cars of lumber in the Traud 1951 book. We're talking about 35 trains and 2400 total cars here!

Then I looked at the other UP books (spreadsheets) that I have. ALL of the other books do show lumber on flat cars, in years both earlier and later (1941 Nelson, 1947 Fraley(?), and 1956 Novi).

I'm stumped. Why would there be no lumber on flat cars in Oct-Dec of 1951? Was this the time period after the Streamliner accident (a piece of lumber shifted on a flat car, and broke the windows of a passing Streamliner, showering the passengers with broken glass) ??

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of thomas christensen
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 6:25 PM
To: STMFC@...

--- On Tue, 4/13/10, soolinehistory <destorzek@...<mailto:destorzek%40mchsi.com>> wrote:

Speaking of lumber -- anyone know when the first "wrapped"
lumber loads began? I mean the neat stacks of same-length
pieces, all nicely wrapped up. I'm guessing it was sometime
in the 1950's, since that's when wrapped drywall loads on
flats appeared.
I still remember lumber in boxcars in 1959 or '60, maybe a couple years later. Drywall also originally was shipped in boxcars, which must have been an absolutely miserable job to unload. Drywall lent itself to shipping on bulkhead flats, since it was large flat sheets and it didn't have to be piled very high to max out the car's capacity. Lumber was a different story; while large timbers could and were shipped on flatcars, the pile of dimensional lumber got awfully high and tippy before the car's load limit was reached.

---

We received flat car loads of just about everything (wrapped and unwrapped) - 1x and 2x spruce/pine, timbers, scaffold planking.
Between the different lumber, moldings, and other items, 6-7 cars a week were normal.

Re: Freight car Distribution...help with ICC report

Aley, Jeff A

Tony,

It turns out (with a bit more digging through my personal archives) that the data is NOT from Tim Gilbert, but instead from Dave Nelson. This explains why my attempts with the oujia board have been unsuccessful.

And at the time (over 10 yrs ago!) Dave readily conceded that
[Quote]
The problem could be the regional
within each region (not too surprising a thought). The omission of these
variances makes the numbers above rather suspect. Perhaps they are good enough
as a general guideline, perhaps worthless. I'll leave that conclusion to
[End Quote]

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:25 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight car Distribution...help with ICC report

Aley, Jeff A wrote:
Yes it is a big assumption. I suggest a séance or
use of a oujia board to contact Tim Gilbert and ask him why he made
such an assumption, and what are the implications.
I realize that the alternative to the assumption is to ignore
the data. But certainly among the roads in that ICC grouping are quite
different situations as to bridge vs. originating and terminating
traffic.
That said, I will comment that I was intrigued with the
particular percentage, as it is not far from what I've calculated for
home road cars on the SP, based on photos. (Yeah, yeah, photos are a
skimpy data set, etc.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Freight car Distribution...help with ICC report

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Aley, Jeff A wrote:
Yes it is a big assumption. I suggest a séance or
use of a oujia board to contact Tim Gilbert and ask him why he made
such an assumption, and what are the implications.
I realize that the alternative to the assumption is to ignore
the data. But certainly among the roads in that ICC grouping are quite
different situations as to bridge vs. originating and terminating
traffic.
That said, I will comment that I was intrigued with the
particular percentage, as it is not far from what I've calculated for
home road cars on the SP, based on photos. (Yeah, yeah, photos are a
skimpy data set, etc.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: Freight car Distribution...help with ICC report

Aley, Jeff A

Tony,

Yes it is a big assumption. I suggest a séance or use of a oujia board to contact Tim Gilbert and ask him why he made such an assumption, and what are the implications.

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:12 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight car Distribution...help with ICC report

Aley, Jeff A wrote:
For each ICC region (e.g. "Central West"), the percentage of box
cars on home rails is given (28.50%).
exactly 28.50% of their cars on home rails.
Pretty giant assumption there, Jeff.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: G-N Hypothesis - Is it just for the "Main Line"?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Jim Dick wrote:
This situation happened in the PNW. A NP document listing reasons why additional fifty foot double door boxcars needed to be purchased gave the following: During the early 1940's and during WWII, defense shipping from east (of the Mississippi) and auto traffic from Detroit provided plenty of fifty foot double door boxcars the lumber mills craved. They could load these and send them home in the general direction. ( a well balanced siuation)

Then as the war traffic winded down and auto factories in California opened up (Richard Hendrickson's post 89730), this created a need for additional cars of this type.
And from what I have found, given a choice - the mills preferred fifty footers over forty footers. Perhaps Tony Thompson can comment on that regarding SP shippers. For NP/SP&S it certainly was true.
Yes, I have copies of some SP memos about confiscating empty 50-ft. double-door cars throughout the system, and moving them to Oregon for lumber loading. It's evident in both SP records and in the ORER that SP regularly purchased lots of flat cars and double-door cars, in significant part to protect lumber traffic. That's why lumber trains on the SP were VERY heavily home-road cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: Freight car Distribution...help with ICC report

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Aley, Jeff A wrote:
For each ICC region (e.g. "Central West"), the percentage of box cars on home rails is given (28.50%).
An assumption is made that each of the roads in the Central West had exactly 28.50% of their cars on home rails.
Pretty giant assumption there, Jeff.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: G-N Hypothesis - Is it just for the "Main Line"?

np328

- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:
Now if we take this example as fact -- for discussion purposes only -what we have is a situation where the inbounds and outbound are not well balanced, with the clear result there would be little need to hang on to home road boxcars at this location as there would always be plenty of empty foreign road cars on hand. One could also assume there might be locations where the reverse was true -- that is, almost no foreign road boxcars but a steady demand for empties. And with that in mind, lots of possibilities crop up: any line passing thru a good number of small towns, each of which
having one or more locations that could ship quite a few cars -- lumber mills, Dave Nelson

This situation happened in the PNW. A NP document listing reasons why additional fifty foot double door boxcars needed to be purchased gave the following: During the early 1940's and during WWII, defense shipping from east (of the Mississippi) and auto traffic from Detroit provided plenty of fifty foot double door boxcars the lumber mills craved. They could load these and send them home in the general direction. ( a well balanced siuation)

Then as the war traffic winded down and auto factories in California opened up (Richard Hendrickson's post 89730), this created a need for additional cars of this type.
And from what I have found, given a choice - the mills preferred fifty footers over forty footers. Perhaps Tony Thompson can comment on that regarding SP shippers. For NP/SP&S it certainly was true.

One other thing that I have noticed that is missing from these discussions - tha age of fleets. I have seen in correspondence that some railroads tended to have younger fleets of cars and these did have a higher demand by shippers. In many listings, records I have seen not only list the number of home road/competitors cars, but the age also. Not sure how that would be correlated, I can post scans of these listings if someone would like to see these.
Jim Dick - Roseville, MN

Re: Freight car Distribution

Charlie Vlk

The issuance of David Leider's fine history "Wisconsin Central in Illinois" has triggered some thinking about the traffic on the CB&Q that might be considered as an example of why Freight Car Distribution is not just a statistical exercise. The book gives in-depth background about the railroads building into Chicago in competition with the WC and the intrique of that era.

One would think that the GN and NP would have had financial motivation to channel traffic from the owning railroads to the Q from Minneapolis after Hill bought the Burlington.
But this was not the case..... he artificially controlled the existing traffic allocation to the SOO, M&StL, C&NW, MILW and CGW that existed prior to getting control of the Q.
A recent post by a BN retiree on the CB&Q list confirmed that this even-handed treatment of the competition persisted until the day of the BN merger, when in the middle of a recession the traffic on the Twin Cities Line doubled overnight at their expense.

While this may seem to argue in favor of a statistical solution, the point is that traffic patterns had political, economic, physical route, and regulatory overlays that influenced whose cars showed up where.

The UP/SP (and C&NW) have been cited as examples of this.

Since most of us model specific chunks of a real railroad or model our own road after one the best guide for fleet composition would be source evidence of what cars typically showed up on that line... wheel reports, photos of trains, yards, waybills, photos of industries. National statistics need to be tweaked with the local truth.

Charlie Vlk

Re: CGW 1934 X29

brianleppert@att.net

Ron, The CGW 85000 and 89000 series box cars came with Dalman 2-Level trucks (available from Tahoe Model Works). However, the 87000 series cars were built with Coil-Elliptic trucks, where a leaf spring is centered between the coil springs (also available from TMW).

Those leaf springs worked fine as long as they stayed lubricated, from what I've read. But they tended to dry out and were removed in later years, resulting in a double truss truck with a wide gap between the springs (and also from TMW).

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

--- In STMFC@..., "mopacfirst" <ron.merrick@...> wrote:

One more question about these cars.

The link to steamfreightcars.com shows one of these cars less than ten years after delivery. In the CGW Color Guide, several of these cars are shown near the end of their existence, and (whether rebuilt or not) almost all of them have a more conventional double-truss truck instead of the Dalman two-level. Is it fair to say that most of them had these trucks replaced, and if so when and why?

Ron Merrick

I am planning on modeling some Rock Island "hide loading" box cars, maybe by summer,lol! I can just imagine the smell of these cars in the hot summer!!

Rich Christie

--- On Tue, 4/13/10, Jim Hayes <jimhayes97225@...> wrote:

From: Jim Hayes <jimhayes97225@...>
To: STMFC@...
Date: Tuesday, April 13, 2010, 11:06 PM
Greg said
Tom, did you ever get carloads of 1x4 and 1x6x6' fence
boards of California
Incense Cedar in a box? I can still smell those SP boxes
with the "pencil
cedar" smell.

Which brings back memories of boxcar smells. In the Summer
of 1959 (whew,
just under the wire) I worked for a vinegar company in St.
Paul, Minnesota.
One method of shipping vinegar was in cleaned (my job) used
whiskey barrels
which arrived by boxcar. It was mid-Summer and hot and we
unload. Wow what a smell. By the time we finished we were
high just on the
fumes.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:27 PM, <tgregmrtn@...>
wrote:

Tom wrote:

Guys,
Although it's past the time frame of this group, I
worked in a wholesale
lumber yard on Florida's west coast during the early
to mid 1970's. I'll
relate some of my experiences based on the type
lumber. First a few givens.
The interior width and length of box cars, the IW is
about 9-2 and the IL is
about 40-6/50-6, plus or minus a few inches. Random
length lumber was not
length of the car, but
there were still a few inches of space for things to
move. At this time
1x2's and 1x3's were bundled 8 or 10 pieces with
string or tape. 1x12's
would layer 9 wide, 1x10's would layer 11 wide, and so
forth for the other
widths. Lengthwise in a 40 foot car there would be 2
16's and an 8, or 2
12's and a 16, or 2 14's and a 12, or whatever
combination equaled the IL.
The "pick-up-stick mess" was generally the top layers
getting thrown around
by heavy coupling or slack action. The end "lumber
doors" were for lengths
longer than 1/2 the IL plus 1/2 the door width.
1x and 2x Spruce/Pine - We unloaded 3 or 4 40 foot CP
boxcars of this a
below the top of the
door. Us "young skinny guys" would have the pleasure
crawling in on top the
didn't touch the inside of
the roof during the summer. A 3 or 4 man crew would
take about a day and a
1x and 2x Redwood - This was usually in a 50 foot
by forklift, but there
was some hand work to clear out for the forklift. In
good car, 2 men and a
forklift could be done in about 1/2 a day. If the
3x and larger Timbers - Most of the time these were 50
foot double door SP
to the redwood cars.
One memorable load was 1/3 a car of special order
6x12's 24 feet long that
was a hand job.
A few other observations:
(wrapped and unwrapped)
- 1x and 2x spruce/pine, timbers, scaffold planking.
Between the different lumber, moldings, and other
items, 6-7 cars a week
were normal.
layer of craft
paper, at which point you would close the door and
reseal it. Or you would
open one up and there would be a partial load with the
paper on top - LCL.
The "Thrall-door" boxcar was basically a bulkhead flat
car with a roof and
doors.
When moving cars, take some of the slack up on the
hand brake beforehand or
you will not stop before the derail.
You can punch a hole in a car or knock the door off
when trying to
open/close it with a forklift.

Tom Christensen

I find Tom's message amusing as he sounds like he
about the same time as mine as I was a junior in High
School when I started

I have an old promo booklet somewhere that was put
together by Weyerhaeuser
circa 1964 announcing "YARD PACK" which was showing
that they were
standardizing at least their packaging and the use of
paper wrap for Kiln
Dried Lumber. It does go beyond the scope of this list
so I won't go into
detail, just a note as to perhaps the very beginnings
of the paper wrap era,
not to say they were the first by any means. Paper
wrap in my recollection
was reserved for higher quality lumber what we called
"uppers" i.e. clears,
and common boards in all species.

I actually have a photo of a double door 50-foot GTW
box I will share with
lumber by hand and it
dates in the late 40s, perhaps early 50s. I have a
couple of other shots I
will share with them as well.

Tom your notes of the "young Skinny" guys getting the
the top layers of the car remind me of my first lumber
Boss (when I got to
be an "office guy" and no longer a "yard dog") Del
Windisch who was hired on
at the old Barr Lumber facility in the Wilmington/Long
Beach area after
arriving in the LA area in 1934 and he had the same
duty "top
hired on.

Dennis is correct for the most part that most
dimensional lumber ended up
in boxcars if for no other reason than its
marketability. Timbers seemed to
be reserved for flats but gondolas as well . Jim
Singer made me a photo copy
of a PRR gondola being loaded with timbers at
Simpson's Shelton, WA facility
(as best I can tell) with a gantry crane on piece at a
time, one layer at a
time. It was a promo photo from the WCLIB.

I suppose I was lucky as the lumber yard I worked for
did most of the
get the duty of
running the "boxcar special moving the lumber through
the car and handing it
off to a forklift on the ground as we never had a
door, lift the forklift into the car open both doors
so you maneuver in the
car and pray you didn't go out the backside. Broken
bands, well we were
union and the re stacking was done by the Lumber
Handlers not the forklift
drivers on the ground, their time was too valuable. I
wished I had a buck a
thoughts for ever car I had to hand stack and re band.
If you wanted ot
claim the SP for the damage, the agent would come out
and say."improper
bracing and blocking, call the mill guy..." In other

The early 70s were transition years for open top
few cars still had the "stacks with saplings and wire"
the new rule was
interlaced bands and stacked layers... again that goes
beyond the scope of
this list.

Tom, did you ever get carloads of 1x4 and 1x6x6' fence
boards of California
Incense Cedar in a box? I can still smell those SP
boxes with the "pencil
cedar" smell. And the Redwood, well by the end of the
stained blue after handling the green stock.

By the late 70s the Thrall Door Boxes were somewhat
common but again for
Redwood (LP cars)"uppers" or KD Fir/Larch out of
Bennett Lumber a rare sight
on the SP in Southern California. Centerbeam cars,
well the first one I ever
saw was unloaded at Randle Lumber behind us in
Huntington Beach and by gosh
it went over when they unloaded the wood all off one
the other and of course what was painted on the inside
huge note saying, "unload material evenly from both
sides at the same
time..." Oops!

Greg Martin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

STMFC-fullfeatured@...

Re: CGW 1934 X29

mopacfirst

One more question about these cars.

The link to steamfreightcars.com shows one of these cars less than ten years after delivery. In the CGW Color Guide, several of these cars are shown near the end of their existence, and (whether rebuilt or not) almost all of them have a more conventional double-truss truck instead of the Dalman two-level. Is it fair to say that most of them had these trucks replaced, and if so when and why?

Ron Merrick

Box/auto distribution 1938

Wendye Ware

Hi Everyone

Here is some info on the distribution of box and auto cars for trains on the U.P. mainline between Laramie and Rawlins in 1938. The data are compiled from three Freight Conductors' Train Books written by conductors Ferguson, Fraley, and Fitz. Ferguson's data are from May and June of 1938, while Fraley's and Fitz's are from September-October of the same year.

In the tables below the information from the train books is compared to national averages based on the January, 1938 ORER. The national values count only box, auto and ventilated cars in interchange service on Class I U.S. roads or their lessees.

The tables show the road initial, the number of box/auto cars in the conductors' books, the percentage these cars represent, and the national percentage. Only roads with 5 or more cars reported in the train books are listed.

Roads in which the percentage of cars tallied from the conductors' books exceeds the national percentage.
Road: Num; Book %; Nat %
SP: 201; 15.1%; 3.3%
CB&Q: 125; 9.4%; 3.0%
NYC: 99; 7.4%; 6.1%
MILW: 83; 6.2%; 4.7%
CNW: 64; 4.8%; 3.2%
WP: 54; 4.1%; 0.4%
GTW: 53; 4.0%; 1.3%
RI: 44; 3.3%; 3.1%
MP: 33; 2.5%; 2.3%
IC: 32; 2.4%; 2.3%
SLSF: 31; 2.3%; 2.0%
PM: 26; 2.0%; 1.5%
DT&I: 21; 1.6%; 0.3%
NKP: 15; 1.1%; 1.0%
T&P: 15; 1.1%; 0.5%
T&NO: 14; 1.1%; 1.0%
CGW: 8; 0.6%; 0.5%
CMO: 7; 0.5%; 0.5%
B&LE: 5; 0.4%; 0.0%

Roads in which the percentage of cars tallied from the conductors' books is less than the national percentage.
Road: Num; Book %; Nat %
PRR: 79; 5.9%; 10.4%
ATSF: 36; 2.7%; 4.9%
MC: 27; 2.0%; 2.5%
B&O: 24; 1.8%; 4.4%
NP: 24; 1.8%; 3.1%
SOUTHERN: 19; 1.4%; 3.6%
WABASH: 18; 1.4%; 1.6%
GN: 15; 1.1%; 3.5%
SOO: 15; 1.1%; 1.4%
ERIE: 13; 1.0%; 1.4%
L&N: 11; 0.8%; 2.2%
C&O: 9; 0.7%; 1.4%
CCC&STL: 7; 0.5%; 1.5%
N&W: 7; 0.5%; 1.0%
D&RGW: 6; 0.5%; 0.6%
M-K-T: 6; 0.5%; 0.6%
DL&W: 5; 0.4%; 1.3%

FWIW the percentage of box/auto cars that were UP is 41% - 935 cars of a total of 2,267. (1,332 cars were used to calculate the Book % in the tables.)

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Jim Hayes

Greg said
Tom, did you ever get carloads of 1x4 and 1x6x6' fence boards of California
Incense Cedar in a box? I can still smell those SP boxes with the "pencil
cedar" smell.

Which brings back memories of boxcar smells. In the Summer of 1959 (whew,
just under the wire) I worked for a vinegar company in St. Paul, Minnesota.
One method of shipping vinegar was in cleaned (my job) used whiskey barrels
which arrived by boxcar. It was mid-Summer and hot and we had a boxcar to
unload. Wow what a smell. By the time we finished we were high just on the
fumes.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 7:27 PM, <tgregmrtn@...> wrote:

Tom wrote:

Guys,
Although it's past the time frame of this group, I worked in a wholesale
lumber yard on Florida's west coast during the early to mid 1970's. I'll
relate some of my experiences based on the type lumber. First a few givens.
The interior width and length of box cars, the IW is about 9-2 and the IL is
about 40-6/50-6, plus or minus a few inches. Random length lumber was not
loaded randomly. It was loaded to fill the width and length of the car, but
there were still a few inches of space for things to move. At this time
1x2's and 1x3's were bundled 8 or 10 pieces with string or tape. 1x12's
would layer 9 wide, 1x10's would layer 11 wide, and so forth for the other
widths. Lengthwise in a 40 foot car there would be 2 16's and an 8, or 2
12's and a 16, or 2 14's and a 12, or whatever combination equaled the IL.
The "pick-up-stick mess" was generally the top layers getting thrown around
by heavy coupling or slack action. The end "lumber doors" were for lengths
longer than 1/2 the IL plus 1/2 the door width.
1x and 2x Spruce/Pine - We unloaded 3 or 4 40 foot CP boxcars of this a
week. They would be loaded to about 14 to 18 inches below the top of the
door. Us "young skinny guys" would have the pleasure crawling in on top the
lumber to begin the unloading, just make sure you didn't touch the inside of
the roof during the summer. A 3 or 4 man crew would take about a day and a
1x and 2x Redwood - This was usually in a 50 foot double door SP car, about
1 car every 2 weeks. These were loaded to be unloaded by forklift, but there
was some hand work to clear out for the forklift. In good car, 2 men and a
forklift could be done in about 1/2 a day. If the banding had broken or the
3x and larger Timbers - Most of the time these were 50 foot double door SP
One memorable load was 1/3 a car of special order 6x12's 24 feet long that
was a hand job.
A few other observations:
- 1x and 2x spruce/pine, timbers, scaffold planking.
Between the different lumber, moldings, and other items, 6-7 cars a week
were normal.
Occasionally while unloading a car you would come to a layer of craft
paper, at which point you would close the door and reseal it. Or you would
open one up and there would be a partial load with the paper on top - LCL.
The "Thrall-door" boxcar was basically a bulkhead flat car with a roof and
doors.
When moving cars, take some of the slack up on the hand brake beforehand or
you will not stop before the derail.
You can punch a hole in a car or knock the door off when trying to
open/close it with a forklift.

Tom Christensen

I find Tom's message amusing as he sounds like he started in the business
about the same time as mine as I was a junior in High School when I started

I have an old promo booklet somewhere that was put together by Weyerhaeuser
circa 1964 announcing "YARD PACK" which was showing that they were
standardizing at least their packaging and the use of paper wrap for Kiln
Dried Lumber. It does go beyond the scope of this list so I won't go into
detail, just a note as to perhaps the very beginnings of the paper wrap era,
not to say they were the first by any means. Paper wrap in my recollection
was reserved for higher quality lumber what we called "uppers" i.e. clears,
and common boards in all species.

I actually have a photo of a double door 50-foot GTW box I will share with
Tim, Dennis and Tom showing the unloading of dimension lumber by hand and it
dates in the late 40s, perhaps early 50s. I have a couple of other shots I
will share with them as well.

the top layers of the car remind me of my first lumber Boss (when I got to
be an "office guy" and no longer a "yard dog") Del Windisch who was hired on
at the old Barr Lumber facility in the Wilmington/Long Beach area after
arriving in the LA area in 1934 and he had the same duty "top

Dennis is correct for the most part that most dimensional lumber ended up
in boxcars if for no other reason than its marketability. Timbers seemed to
be reserved for flats but gondolas as well . Jim Singer made me a photo copy
of a PRR gondola being loaded with timbers at Simpson's Shelton, WA facility
(as best I can tell) with a gantry crane on piece at a time, one layer at a
time. It was a promo photo from the WCLIB.

I suppose I was lucky as the lumber yard I worked for did most of the
unloading with forklifts, and I was the chosen one to get the duty of
running the "boxcar special moving the lumber through the car and handing it
door, lift the forklift into the car open both doors so you maneuver in the
car and pray you didn't go out the backside. Broken bands, well we were
union and the re stacking was done by the Lumber Handlers not the forklift
drivers on the ground, their time was too valuable. I wished I had a buck a
thoughts for ever car I had to hand stack and re band. If you wanted ot
claim the SP for the damage, the agent would come out and say."improper
bracing and blocking, call the mill guy..." In other words your screwed...

The early 70s were transition years for open top loading rules, and only a
few cars still had the "stacks with saplings and wire" the new rule was
interlaced bands and stacked layers... again that goes beyond the scope of
this list.

Tom, did you ever get carloads of 1x4 and 1x6x6' fence boards of California
Incense Cedar in a box? I can still smell those SP boxes with the "pencil
cedar" smell. And the Redwood, well by the end of the day your hands were
stained blue after handling the green stock.

By the late 70s the Thrall Door Boxes were somewhat common but again for
Redwood (LP cars)"uppers" or KD Fir/Larch out of Bennett Lumber a rare sight
on the SP in Southern California. Centerbeam cars, well the first one I ever
saw was unloaded at Randle Lumber behind us in Huntington Beach and by gosh