16" guns were also transported to the US Army Aberdeen Proving Ground on the shores of upper Chesapeake Bay in Maryland, where they were quite often fired for years (even now?) for very high altitude, high trajectory testing. They could have been originally delivered by rail (PRR or B&O), or by water (the waters around the grounds are very, very shallow, however). I never figured out whether these guns were surplused from coastal defense duties, or were from Naval sources.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

Tim,

CN used top-mounted uncoupling levers on all of it's 40ft steel boxcars. Can't say why though.

Mark Heiden

"Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> 03/19/10 10:04 AM >>>

Anyone who has the book "Steel Rails to Victory" can see a photo of
loaded naval rifle on a 100T 12-axle flat. Unfortunately you can't read
the markings.

KL

Kurt,

Loaded? Isn't that a bit dangerous <VBG>

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Anyone who has the book "Steel Rails to Victory" can see a photo of loaded naval rifle on a 100T 12-axle flat. Unfortunately you can't read the markings.

KL

I'm curious about the position of the uncoupling lever on this
CN box car -- above the coupler. This is obviously a postwar
box car (built 1951) Was this a typical practice of the CN at
that time? Most other cars of this era have bottom uncoupling
levers.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250595958300

Tim O'Connor

Could it been for a scale model of a missle?



Al Kresse

--- In STMFC@..., "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> wrote:

Dennis,

Right, except that Baldwin used an alpha-numeric combination that
designated the weight and such. Porter's were just plain words. Usually
the first few words in the Porter catalogs are the real thing, but as
you go down the list the words turn gibberish.

We'd better drop this non-freight car discussion before Mike gets cheesed.

Kind regards,


Garth Groff

Not to prolong the discussion, but I had a chance to look at the book again "Baldwin Locomotives" published by Schiffer, which is just reprints of old Baldwin material. Each facsimile page was headed:

Record of Recent Construction No. 21, Page 5
Code Word, RECHTEROOG
Class 10 20/38-E-40

Record of Recent Construction No. 21, Page 7
Code Word, RECHTSAB
Class 10 25/46-D-6

Record of Recent Construction No. 21, Page 9
Code Word, RECHTERDIJ
Class 10 25/46-E-107

The "class" designator is rather well known, and relates to physical aspects of the locomotive, well, possibly many locomotives built to the same specifications. The "code word" seems to relate to THIS SPECIFIC PAGE, likely so the customer could easily reference what he was looking at.

Dennis

That's how he built my car.

Clark Propst

What difference does that make, Tom? I add my "Welcome home, Ben!"


SGL

Sorry Guys,
My note to Ben was meant to be off-list.

Tom Olsen

__._





E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514)
Database version: 6.14600
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Bruce, yours is a very insightful posting.

Though at the carrier that I've worked at in the running trades for 22 years and change, we still use many expressions and hand signals to this day that were around in the steam era.

Some people still hand-signal the motion of a stemwinder brake being operated to instruct a crew member to apply hand brakes.

It's common of even myself and other railway conductors to say "slack on the pin" or "on the pin" over the radio when making a coupling to this day. And surely you know that couplers still have a pin? The one that the knuckle pivots about when being opened or closed. It's sometimes a handy and ready tool for persuading a handbrake to release, or closing the cut-out cock on a defective control valve.

Most roads had short forms for long descriptors in the days of telegraphy. On CN, Portage La Prairie, Manitoba, was shortened to "P La Prairie", and Peterbourough, Ontario, shortened to "Peterboro".

The CN Form 3903 accident report had a letter preceding each question on it. Answers were often transmitted by simply the letter and answer.

With telegraphy, brevity was extemely important as a telegrapher would often have commercial messages to send/recieve, as well as train orders.

Steve Lucas.

Steve Lucas.

Group,
Not sure why yahoo is losing my posts, but I just wanted to thank everyone for helping with the ship prop question. I had completely forgotten about the large RC ship hobby. I have managed to find several props online that will likely work.

Sincerely,
Bob Heninger
Iowa City, IA

For a similar code system as used on the Great Western Railway in UK, see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_telegraphic_codes.>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_telegraphic_codes. Very
detailed and all about steam era freight cars (just not US!)

Regards, Viv Brice

_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of cvlk
Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 2:35 am
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Baobab (was: ... battleships)




Commercial telegraph terms such as "Baobab" did not stand for anything. It
was a system of distinct words that could be translated into precise
meanings that allowed more complex communication without having to send full
text with increased possiblity of transcription errors. Each company came up
with their own meanings for such words and probably adopted available lists
for their own use or simply used a dictionary to come up with their own key
words.
Sort of like Ikea and their nonsense names for products.....just a code
system.
Charlie Vlk

Does anyone know what "Baobab" actually stood for? What is it a contraction
of? Any attempt at Google just tells you about the tropical tree.

Paul/all

the article in question was by Stan Rydarowicz and appeared in the Sept 2001 issue of Railmodel Journal.

He combined a Red Caboose X-29 and a Mantua Heavy Reefer.

HTH,
Alan Monk,
London, UK

Sorry Guys,
My note to Ben was meant to be off-list.

Tom Olsen

Hi Ben,

I understand that you have returned from your sojurn in the Middle East. Welcome home!

Tom Olsen
Newark, Delaware

Doug is right concerning the definition of what a Baobab is. The PRR had it's own dictionary of words used to represent specific groups of words that the company telegraphers used when telegraph was the only method of communication in the days before the telephone.

Charlie has summed it up suscinctly in his email:

"It was a system of distinct words that could be translated into precise meanings that allowed more complex communication without having to send full text with increased possiblity of transcription errors. Each company came up with their own meanings for such words and probably adopted available lists for their own use or simply used a dictionary to come up with their own key words."

The term "Baobab" until several years ago was still used to denote an excessive dimension load. As time goes by, many of the old terms that were used in the past are going by the wayside as the older guys retire and die off!

You still hear of crews dropping pins when making couplings after cars have been humped, although there have not been pins in couplers in close to 100 years. It is just an expression that has hung on, but again, this also is dying out with the retirement of the older railroaders. There is a long list of terms that were quite common in railroading back between 1900 and the late '90s that are no longer used.

Regards,

Tom Olsen
Newark, Delaware

While looking at the flyers on Jim Hayes' site (thank you Jim) I got to wondering, would they have been shipped in one or two carloads at a time or a whole ships worth of pieces?

Thsnk you,

Ned Carey

Expanding briefly on Ben's comments, this subject has been kicked
around on the PRR Modeling and PRRPro(ject) lists a couple of times
over the past couple of years.

Bruce Smith is presently on vacation (GRRRRR!) otherwise he would
be chiming in along with Ben and me, I'm sure.

Bruce wrote a comprehensive article on building a couple of loaded
(with barrel) F22 Gun Flats in "The Keystone Modeler" No.32,
March 2006. Eldon Gatwood wrote an article on the prototype and
model F22's in TKM No. 26, September 2005.

Neither article is on the PRR Society web site any longer, but
they are available through the Society on CD. Contact Al Buchan
for info. Go to: http://www.prrths.com/

The PRR built 120 Heavy Duty F22 Flat Cars in 1913 primarily for
hauling Gun Barrels (Gun Tubes) between the Washington Navy Yard
in Washington, DC to west coast bases - Bremerton, WA - for
refitting the battle ship guns. This work was also performed on the
east coast and the PRR F22's hauled the barrels there, too.

Originally built to haul 14" barrels, the cars hauled the 16" barrels,
when they arrived on the scene.

Special Load Bolsters equipped the F22's and the barrels were
blocked with wooden saddles fixed to the Load Bolsters which allowed
the barrels to pivot slightly as the semi-permanently flats negotiated
curves. A PRR FM Flat Car usually acted as an idler car on the
muzzle end of the load. All of this info may be found in Eldon's
and Bruce's articles.

I believe that the Milwaukee Road had some assigned Gun Barrel
cars and Tony Thompson has verified that the SP had them, too.

Some brass F22's have been imported. Funaro & Camerlengo makes
resin kits of the F22's, and F&C and Sunshine make resin FM kits,
all in HO. The old MDC "Olde Tyme Shortie Flats" (now Athearn)
can be substituted for F22's (the "Hundred Foot Rule" needs to be
expanded about 5 times) but the MDC cars are probably only available
at swap meets or in the bottom of boxes somewhere. They are not
presently in production.

"Blatant Commercial Plug" -- Some additional model info on the F22 and
FM Cars may be found here -- http://www.rgspemkt.com/F22.html

Our 16" Barrel Loads w/Load Bolsters, barrel tie-down hoops, rings
and the other items needed to model these loads will be available
this summer. The Load Bolsters (Kit #207) have been available for about
a year. Other load photos may be found here:
http://www.rgspemkt.com/206.html

Resin 14" barrels (and 16", too) are available from another source and I
will check with him before I post his email address.

I'm sure Bruce, and others, may add more info on this interesting subject.
The 14 and 16 inch barrels needed to be re-lined after just 300 shots, so
there were a lot of gun barrel loads traveling on our railroads during a
number of decades of the 20th century.

BTW - Our Wood Floors for the Tangent Gons are available and
in production - Check www.laserkit.com - Sorry, I just had to
mention that.

Thanks -
John




John Hitzeman
President/Owner
American Model Builders, Inc.
LASERKit (tm)
Our 27th Year!
St. Louis, MO
www.rgspemkt.com
www.ambstlouis.net
www.laserkit.com
amermodel@...
laserkit@...

Bob,



I have thought of buying a brass propeller from Model Expo but have not.
They may also have plastic ones if weight is an issue.



Here is the link:



http://modelexpo-online.com/search.asp?SKW=cat1_MA%20cat2_G



Prices are $7 and $8 each for a 30 mm and 50 mm diameter which if my math is
right would scale out to be 8-1/2 feet and 14-1/4 feet in HO scale. Might
be right for a large boat and would look pretty sharp in a well car.



I seem to recall that Athearn offered a propeller at one time.



Allen Cain

Garth wrote:

Those big guns were good only for so many shots before they became worn

and inaccurate. A regular supply in various sizes had to be available
for refitting. One depot for storing them was at Hawthorn, Nevada, on
the SP. This would have been convenient to several West Coast refit
yards, such as San Francisco, Long Beach and San Diego. Could the PRR

or

Milwaukee gun flats have been used for delivery to Hawthorn from East
Coast foundries? I wonder how those tubes were later moved on the SP?

I don't recall any such special cars mentioned in Tony's SP book.

Garth,

Many 14" and 16" naval gun barrels were manufactured and all were
finished (lined) at the Washington Naval Yard (aka Wahington Naval Gun
Factory) in DC. Barrels being shipped from other places of manufacture
to WNY and from WNY to (most) east coast shipyards and west coast
storage facilites, traveled exclusively on PRR F22 gun flat "couplets"
(2 cars, drawbar coupled and equipped with appropriate hardware). The
Milwaukee road's home built 1942 welded gun flats were leased to the
Union Pacific immediately upon completion, and were assigned as
"couplets" to Pocatello. These cars moved gun barrels between Pocatello
and west coast ship yards. It is certainly conceivable that they also
served Hawthorne. Note that 14" guns fit completely on a couplet, but
16" guns required an additional idler car. I have yet to find a photo
of a large naval gun on another style flat. Note, that this does not
include coastal defense guns, which were sometimes shipped on other flat
cars, such as Watervliet Arsenal #1.

When battleships returned to port for refit, the guns were swapped out
for new ones and the old ones were shipped back to the WNY for any
needed repairs, as well as relining and then returned to storage depots.

Please note that battleship gun barrels were also shipped by barge from
the WNY to places like the testing facility at Dahlgren VA.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL