Date   

Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
Unbelievably invulnrable statement. Totally unassailable. The stuff of genius. First...statistically? Heck...that wins the day no matter what really happened. Second..."the great majority of coal hoppers traveled on their home roads". I'd go further and say ALL of them did . . .
Got me there, Mike. I meant to say, "MOSTLY traveled on their home roads." As you point out, the way I actually did phrase it, it's blindingly obvious--and uninformative.
To remind those with steam emerging from their ears, Andy Miller, with whom I agreed, stated that there are "many exceptions" to the home-road-only statement. But people are falling all over themselves to document exactly that.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Armand Premo
 

Richard,with all due respect, are we looking at a regional issue ?Before I go off half cocked ,isn't there a different mix of cars on western road trains than on eastern and midwestern roads?Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?





On Jul 3, 2009, at 2:11 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

> This whole thread is predicated on a dearth of discussion about
> coal cars??? What kind of a red herring is THAT? It seems to me
> we've been talking about coal cars more or less continuously for
> the last 12 years!!
>

Yes, and those of us who don't live in coal country are getting
mighty tired of it. I understand the interest (obsession?) with
hoppers on the part of those who model eastern and some midwestern
lines, and I'm happy to go on pushing the delete button when we have
these endless discussions of where N&W hoppers went and why. But
really, guys, coal hopper cars were (as I believe I've said here
before) less common in many parts of the far west than helium tank
cars or bulk wine tank cars. Those who doubt it can see my Wine Tank
Car clinic at Naperville in October, which includes a photo on the SP
at Fresno showing ±40 wine tank cars - and not a coal hopper in
sight. The fuels that powered almost everything west of the Front
Range, including most steam locomotives, were natural gas and oil
(or, as they say in Texas, "awl.") Much of that was moved in tank
cars, of which we don't have nearly enough variety in prototypical
tank car models, though things are a bit better now than they were
five years ago.

Richard Hendrickson

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Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Scott Pitzer
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
But
really, guys, coal hopper cars were (as I believe I've said here
before) less common in many parts of the far west than helium tank
cars or bulk wine tank cars. Those who doubt it can see my Wine Tank
Car clinic at Naperville in October, which includes a photo on the SP
at Fresno showing ±40 wine tank cars - and not a coal hopper in
sight. The fuels that powered almost everything west of the Front
Range, including most steam locomotives, were natural gas and oil
===============================================
But... but... a Kato ad for black-painted GS-4's said they got dirty pulling coal cars (as well as "grain hoppers.")

IF ONLY I could figure out who to believe!

Scott Pitzer


Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Terry Link <trlink@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Miller" <aslmmiller@...>
One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for
the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes
there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for
months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part
the only prototype modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers.
The only people interested in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on.
In that vein, note that the three most common PRR hoppers are readily
available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and the GLCA from Westerfiled and
newly released from F&C.



I just completed copying 2 conductors books from from the NYC Western
division 1953-1955 and put up the train consists here:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/freight-consists-western.htm



L&N hoppers were probably as common, if not more than NYC cars.
Besides L&N and NYC ( along with NYC relatives - P&LE, PMcK&Y, P&E and
B&A ), there were hoppers ( as well as gondolas loaded with coal ) from:

CIM, NC&StL, Southern, IC, MP, NKP, PRR, DL&W, L&A, L&M, MILW, BWCX, B&O,
RDG, ERIE, LV, C&NW, B&M, WM, SAL, MKT, CRR, VGN, N&W, CB&Q, C&O, GN and EJ&E ( and
maybe others I have missed. .


Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario, Canada
www.canadasouthern.com


Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor says:

This whole thread is predicated on a dearth of discussion about
coal cars??? What kind of a red herring is THAT? It seems to me
we've been talking about coal cars more or less continuously for
the last 12 years!!
Well...no. Only the last 6 or so. Nevertheless, they ARE steam era frt cars.

Mike Brock


Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tony Thompson reacts:

I knew the instant I read this that the coal-road modelers
would be screaming.
Well...it IS a rather hot day in summer. IOW, what else is there to do?

But statistically, Andy is precisely correct. The
great majority of coal hoppers traveled on their home roads.
Unbelievably invulnrable statement. Totally unassailable. The stuff of genius. First...statistically? Heck...that wins the day no matter what really happened. Second..."the great majority of coal hoppers traveled on their home roads". I'd go further and say ALL of them did. I'd even say that every UP box car traveled on their home road. Did either type of car go OFF their home road? Yep. Now...to be sure, I'd argue that every UP box car managed to find its way off UP tracks at some time but I would doubt that N&W hoppers engaged in carrying coal between the mines in West Va to Norfolk probably got mixed into similar traffic to the west, south and north. OTOH, as I have reporterd several times before, in 1948 N&W sent 22 million tons west, 10 million tons north to Great Lake ships, 10 million tons east through Norfolk, 2.5 million tons south. and 7.5 million northeast into Maryland, Wash DC and VA. So...consider the map. N&W rails stopped at Columbus, OH and did not reach west of Cincinnati. In addition, N&W tracks did not reach north of Hagerstown and, in fact, served little of VA. In order to reach the large cities of Maryland and even VA...they had to leave the friendly rails of N&W. So...of the 52 million tons of coal moved by N&W, I'll speculate that no more than the amount going into Maryland and VA stayed in the Cincinnati area...leaving 27.8% of the total going off N&W tracks to the west. The amount going north from Columbus is 19.2% of the total. The amount going south is 4.8% of the total. Add in, say, 6 million going into DC and Maryland...11.5% and you get the fact that about 63.3% of the coal shipped by N&W went off N&W tracks. Now...one can argue...how far but that doesn't really matter. The question is...what RR is being modeled and is it in the area served by coal moved by N&W to its "handoff" points? Certainly we know that solid trains of N&W hoppers moved on the NYC, B&O and Pennsy north to the lake ports. We also know N&W hoppers flooded onto the smaller midwestern RRs. It was the only way to get to the industrial areas of the midwest.

Now, what about the C&O? This is not nearly so simple. C&O served Chicago and the upper midwest and also the DC area in addition to going off shore at Newport News. I would guess that smaller RRs would still have received C&O hoppers in the midwest off the C&O mainlines.

Mike Brock


Ulrich gondolas [Was: Prototype for new resin kits]

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Incidentally, it occurs to me that I have two Ulrich kits pre- lettered for CN black gondolas. Is this an accurate paint scheme for CN Enterprise gondolas--if they had any? If they are accurate, I'd be happy to move them to a good home for a nominal price; otherwise I will repaint and reletter for SP or UP.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...>
 

The Rutland commonly had B&O coal hoppers running on their system,
especially ones delivered to the OLC division in Northern NY State.

CP received a lot of coal in B&O hoppers as well from the
Ogdensburg/Prescott ferry connection.

Alan


On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Armand Premo<armprem2@...> wrote:
   Andy,I must vehemently disagree.Pennsy and B&O hoppers were sent all over.I have several years of company coal reports which show heavy traffic by both the B&O and Pennsy hoppers among others .Coal was a common commodity contributing to a very high percentage of traffic on most railroads during the steam era.Some railroads actually sent their hoppers to mines.The N&W shipped a bulk of its coal to tidewater terminals ,but still sent some over land routes.Armand Premo
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Andrew Miller
 To: STMFC@...
 Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:09 AM
 Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?





 Al,

 One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by both ECW and BLI.

 regards,

 Andy Miller
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: al.kresse
 To: STMFC@...
 Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:36 AM
 Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?

 Folks,

 I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little discussion is about modeling coal cars.

 Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their lifetime, or other reason(s)?

 It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars (hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . . . and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than USRA cars.

 I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.

 I'd be interested in knowing why.

 Al Kresse

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------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





--
--
Alan Palmer
http://rrgeekdev.googlepages.com/home


Re: Prototype for new resin kits

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gary Ray wrote:
I'd like to see some SP G-50-9's, 10, 11, or 12 and G-50-3's or G-50-8's along with the previously mentioned SP F50-1,2,3s.
I continue to re-detail and reletter Ulrich cast metal G-50-9 and -10 cars, and with Archer rivets you could model classes G-50-11 and -12 also with the Ulrich body. I'd love to have styrene ones with scale grab irons, but in the interim we DO have a pretty accurate stand-in.
The G-50-8 would be interesting--it's an 8-panel gondola with plate ends--though SP only owned 500 of them, all on T&L Lines. The G-50-3 was also an 8-panel gon though with drop doors in the SP version; there SP had 830 cars and T&L Lines had 300. But the -3 cars were nearly gone by 1950, whereas the -8 cars were still around. If I had to choose between these two, I'd take the G-508 hands-down. But unlike the -3, I don't think UP bought any cars like this, so paint schemes would be limited.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Prototype for new resin kits

Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
 

Rich,

I believe F&C does an H25

regards,
Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: SUVCWORR@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Prototype for new resin kits








Accurate gons and stock cars.? There is a definite lack these.? We are awash in boxcars and tank cars.

On a specific car PRR H25.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: gn3397 <heninger@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, Jul 2, 2009 7:32 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Prototype for new resin kits

Group,
I was hoping to stir up a discussion about what prototypes everyone would
like to see produced as kits, resin or otherwise. I realize that we are awash in
excellent kits for many prototypes, and I don't mean for this discussion to
devolve into a "I can't believe they don't make X, Y, or Z!" rant. I just wonder
what everyone would like to see produced.

My list:

NC&St.L XM-32 boxcars
MILW 1929 single sheathed automobile boxcars
PRR X28a (and I wouldn't mind seeing separate ends for the Bowser X31 - I hate
trying to carve molded ladders off a car end)
NYC 9'4" IH USRA design steel boxcars
Reading XMu boxcar
IC/CNW 50' boxcars with 6' doors
L&A/KCS 50' boxcars with 9' doors
CB&Q XM-23, -27, and -30 boxcars

I know my list is composed entirely of boxcars, for the simple fact that is
the car type of which I am most knowledgable. What are the tankcars, gons, and
flats that we are missing?

Sincerely,
Bob Heninger
Iowa City, IA

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Erie #84571

Mark
 

I just received two Red Caboose model. Both Erie, ACF boxcar #84571 and 42' flatcar #8700.

Searched the messages and found the flatcar is NYC. The boxcar has 8' doors, 4-3-1 ends, riveted sides and diagonal panel roof.

The car looks like it needs a heavier sill under the door.

Any suggestions?

Mark Morgan


From the Delano photos

spsalso
 

In the rightmost photo that Dave Evans sited, there's what appears to me to be a pretty strange car. It's three cars from the left side and about 3 tracks from the rear--in front of the white-sided reefer (also interesting). It's got orange sides and looks like some sort of ventilated car and looks to be a 50 footer. Some kind of livestock car??? Milw MOW???

Definitely a fun photo. Oh, yeah, that looks like snow or maybe a white "powder" on the MP box in the foreground in the other photo. You'll note that it's also on the roofwalk, brake platform and the top of the top rib on the end. Hmmmm....

Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 3, 2009, at 2:11 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

This whole thread is predicated on a dearth of discussion about
coal cars??? What kind of a red herring is THAT? It seems to me
we've been talking about coal cars more or less continuously for
the last 12 years!!





Yes, and those of us who don't live in coal country are getting
mighty tired of it. I understand the interest (obsession?) with
hoppers on the part of those who model eastern and some midwestern
lines, and I'm happy to go on pushing the delete button when we have
these endless discussions of where N&W hoppers went and why. But
really, guys, coal hopper cars were (as I believe I've said here
before) less common in many parts of the far west than helium tank
cars or bulk wine tank cars. Those who doubt it can see my Wine Tank
Car clinic at Naperville in October, which includes a photo on the SP
at Fresno showing ±40 wine tank cars - and not a coal hopper in
sight. The fuels that powered almost everything west of the Front
Range, including most steam locomotives, were natural gas and oil
(or, as they say in Texas, "awl.") Much of that was moved in tank
cars, of which we don't have nearly enough variety in prototypical
tank car models, though things are a bit better now than they were
five years ago.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Reweigh Dates (was Re: B&O 26th St Terminal aerial view from 1951)

David Payne
 

In a message dated 7/2/2009 9:05:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
cepropst@... writes:

Big problem I've having is I'm running out of reweigh dates (he models 65)
Does anyone make a decal set of just reweigh symbols and dates?




At this time (1965), cars were required to be re-weighed at least every ???
years. What was the ???

They were also required to be re-weighed when re-built; correct?

Thanks.

DPayne

**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585087x1201462804/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=
JulystepsfooterNO62)


Re: the Minneapolis to Hutchinson, Minnesota, mixed train, 1950-1958

Thomas Baker
 

Anyone have a recommendation as to where I might obtain a photo of the Minneapolis to Hutchinson mixed train operated by the GN? I would like a shot of the entire train which could not have been excessively lengthy. Photo could be taken anywhere on the route.

Tom


Re: Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Mark
 

I agree, Rich. L&N hoppers use to go westbound to Lake Erie over the B&O. Wife told me to buy a video and wow EM-1 pulling out of Wheeling with a PRR coal car right behind her and shots of trains moving west through Columbus (FT set) with L&N coal cars.

That's why I have to have a small assortment of off road coal cars, let alone everything else.

Mark Morgan

--- On Fri, 7/3/09, SUVCWORR@... <SUVCWORR@...> wrote:

From: SUVCWORR@... <SUVCWORR@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 2:36 PM



















Andy,?



I am compelled to take a different position.? While the bulk of hoppers were captive, photographic evidence abounds supporting foreign road hoppers on major coal hauling roads.? An extreme example may be the photos of Tennessee Central hoppers in the PRR yard at Renovo.? Not only are they 400+ miles from home rails but there is no direct connection.? There are numerous examples of NYC, B&O, N&W, RDG, LV, D&LW, D&H cars on the PRR and the captive roads connecting to the PRR, e.g. C&I, BWMX etc.? While the PRR did provide cars to the anthracite mines in eastern Pennsylvania most of that "hard" coal was loaded into the "Anthracite Road" cars and traveled anywhere hard coal was used for home heating.? And coal was not the only commodity carried in open hoppers -- gravel and stone are two examples of other cargos.



Rich Orr



-----Original Message-----

From: Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@rcn. com>

To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com

Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:09 am

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?



Al,



One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the

most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there

were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a

N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype

modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested

in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three

most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and

the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by

both ECW and BLI.



regards,



Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----

From: al.kresse

To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com

Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:36 AM

Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?



Folks,



I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little

discussion is about modeling coal cars.



Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern

coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced

to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their

lifetime, or other reason(s)?



It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars

(hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You

can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . .

. and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons

rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to

spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas

and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than

USRA cars.



I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.



I'd be interested in knowing why.



Al Kresse







------------ --------- --------- ------



Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Railroad Model Craftsman July 2009

Mark
 

Just picked this up at LHS along with some zap and accelerator.
Front cover Old and Weary F-3's pulling Essential freight Cars #45.
AC&F type 11 tank cars. Excellent article.

Keep up the nice work Mr. Culotta.

Sincerely, Mark Morgan


Re: SP flat cars (was Prototype for new resin kits)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Hear, hear!!! Actually, if there were a good set of scale drawings, I would be able to scratchbuild a few. Freight cars are so much less scary now that we have Archer rivets... :-)
Um, Tim, there is a complete arrangement drawing for Class F-50-4 included on page 194 in my Vol. 3, but perhaps you didn't like that drawing? The SP lettering drawings are typically pretty accurate scale, and in Vol. 3 there is one for F-50 classes 5, 8, 9, 10 and 12, page 218. I'd guess all you need is there.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Prototype for new resin kits

Gary Ray <garyeray@...>
 

I'd like to see some SP G-50-9's, 10, 11, or 12 and G-50-3's or G-50-8's
along with the previously mentioned SP F50-1,2,3s.

Gary Ray


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Re: SP flat cars (was Prototype for new resin kits)

Tim O'Connor
 

I'd far rather see the later straight-side-sill
cars, starting with F-50-4. The design changed little through F-50-9
and there were a LOT of them.
Tony Thompson

Hear, hear!!! Actually, if there were a good set of scale drawings,
I would be able to scratchbuild a few. Freight cars are so much less
scary now that we have Archer rivets... :-)

Tim O'Connor

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