Resin manufacturers, on the other hand (and for the most part), seem to
continue to sell lots of kits, which all agree the overwhelming majority of
which will never get built.

A break-out discussion I also found interesting was the agreement that
perhaps 200-300 people out there are actually building those kits. I was
astonished, but the resin guys know far more people, and are far better
tapped into this network than I.

Elden

I think if you multiplied that number by 20 you'd still underestimate
the number of people who have built resin kits. Not everyone builds like
Bill Darnaby (wasn't he building a kit a day at one time?) but I'm quite
sure there are many who build but don't blow their horn about it...

Tim

And most

of the NMRA brass still cannot figure out how to speak politely to RPM
types.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

IMO, its always been that way and it can get worse. I plugged into RPM with Joe Delia at the 1986 NMRA convention in Boston. I entered a kitbashed caboose in the NMRA model contest. They trashed my model because of the paperwork I submitted. Little did I know but the decision maker for a major award was a supporter of RPM. I came in last in category in the NMRA contest but won the UTU Brass Lantern Award! I was encouraged to take my model to the RPM room (where there were a lot more models) and got a blue ribbon in the popular vote contest! Everyone was supportive and enthusiastic. I met really nice people that I still keep in contact with 23 years later. I took more interest in the steam era after looking over Richard H's ATSF models. The rest is history. (I go to NMRA nationals for the RPM guys!)
But there's more to the story. The NMRA told me to put on a suit, show up at the banquet and be prepared for photos during the awards.
My wife and I go home for my suit and show up at the banquet with Joe D in tow. They had me arrive at the beginning and told me that it would be about 3 hours before they got to me and that we couldn't eat because we didn't buy tickets with our registration. We couldn't even buy our way in.
We left for a nice Italian dinner at one of our favorite spots. The photos were done another day.
So I was a bad boy because I didn't understand the paperwork requirements and took first place at the RPM room and the UTU rep decided I had the best caboose to represent their organization despite a poor showing in the contest.
I won't ever enter a NMRA contest and I won't attain NMRA master model railroader (though I could qualify) because IMO they want peopoe to fit their mold. That's OK! Its a big hobby. They can have fun their way and we can have fun our way.
I have to go do some steam era model work now.
Steve Solombrino

Dave, Allen;

Sorry, I do not know of any source for those drawings, but I have a friend
that upgraded one of the breadbox cars, and found that the basic car was
pretty accurate. He just upgraded the details and added piping and such. He
did a set of decals, that I unfortunately never got a copy of. He also did a
B&LE car. Both turned out very nice.

I have also been stymied on several P&LE gon projects by the lack of decals.
You can use the Champ set, but it is not accurate for dimensional and weight
data (for the cars I wanted to do), so you may have to splice. No, it does
not contain any special data, like the "PIPE..." or container info, which is
what put my project on hold. I guess I could piece it together, but I have
less aggravating things to do.

The LifeLike Proto2000 Greenville gon is accurate for the P&LE's orders, with
the exception that the majority of P&LE cars had ladders instead of grabs on
the sides, and most P&LE gons had steel floors (8000-8499, 9000-10499,
10500-10999, 11000-11499, 12000-12999, 13000-13999), which you can see in the
photos on RPCyc and the P&LE gon book by Jack Polaritz. Series 40000-40999,
43000-43499 had wood floors. I cannot remember right now if 41000-41999 were
the nailable steel-floored cars, but of that series, 41091 and others had
"racks" for coil steel. I fabricated a steel floor from .005" sheet and
pounce wheeled the rivets (it's not like the floor is going to be that
critical as far as rivets go), and laminated it to the "wood" floor. The
P&LE nailable steel flooring cars you can simulate by dry-brushing steel over
a painted floor using the floor that comes with the kit. The spacing of the
"boards" is similar to the wood floor. 43000-43499 all had blocking and
steel covers for bar steel; 43000-43104 had bulkheads; 43250-43269 did not,
but also had cushioned underframes. 43500-43999 also had blocking and steel
covers, but set up for coil loading.

P&LE also had several groups of USRA steel gons, which Westerfield did one of
(the flat drop end cars), that also contains very nice decals for the early
scheme. I built one of these and it turned out very nice. Unfortunately, he
did not do the later, and more common, drop end with the reinforcement panel
at the bottom. I would have liked that car, too, but Al told me he just got
tired of doing those cars and never finished that one.

Those two types of gons dominated the P&LE gon fleet until the mid-late 60's,
when they started ordering new ones, and got some from Despatch Shops. The
tall bulkhead end cars are part of these later groups, although there were
some earlier conversions they did on earlier cars.

The 65' gons included series 16000-16499 and 49000-49499. I do not know of
any kit that matches these cars.

There was a group of Greenvilles (13165, 13211, 13511, 13650, 13878) that got
fitted for Youngstown coke containers, that I built, but have no decals to
finish. I used the Walthers coke containers, but do not have the small P&LE
lettering needed to finish them.

I have not checked out the Modeler's Choice decals, but plan to order some to
see how usable they are.

Elden Gatwood


I would be interested in the answer to Dave's original questions.

P&LE ? Gons ? Sounds very ON topic to me !

May we post directly to the group site about this?

THANKS!

Allen Smithee
California, U.S.A.


I've seen a few nice photos of P&LE bulkhead gons on this
group. I'd like to model some of these, covered gons and perform some heavy
modificaitons to the AHM / Bachman Integral Cover Gons to make them look more
realistic and prototypical. Are there any diagrams floating around out there
that show how the underframes and bulkheads were fabricated? Sizes and
locations of structural members? Also, doesn't seem like there's too many
good decals out there for P&LE gondolas. Any idea who has correct white
lettering for the mentioned gons, including "CHUSHION UNDERFRAME" and "PIPE
LOADING ONLY"?

Thanks for any information.

Dave

Group;

I was pretty surprised over the last few years, hearing from small and large
manufacturers, and the buying public, as part of our "serving" both groups,
what all agree is going on in the hobby.

Plastic manufacturers seem to agree that kits are dead, and they are not
going to waste any more time thinking about it.

Resin manufacturers, on the other hand (and for the most part), seem to
continue to sell lots of kits, which all agree the overwhelming majority of
which will never get built.

A break-out discussion I also found interesting was the agreement that
perhaps 200-300 people out there are actually building those kits. I was
astonished, but the resin guys know far more people, and are far better
tapped into this network than I.

The biggest thing that surprises me now days, though, is the "sit back and
wait for someone else to do it for me" attitude that the vast majority of MR
hobbyists now display. You should have heard some of the things folks said
to me at some of the recent meets! I know numerous folks in other hobbies
that build stuff; LOTS of stuff. What I hear from our own, nowdays, is "why
can't you get XYZ to do a RTR X29B in plastic?" I would say from these
dialogues, that a lot of people in this hobby are becoming simple collectors,
not builders.

Thank goodness for the prototype modelers!

Elden Gatwood
Chair, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee

Tony T wrote

I agree too. There is no more telling indictment of the NMRA
than the turnout of models at RPM meets all over the country. And most
of the NMRA brass still cannot figure out how to speak politely to RPM
types.

I have no contact with national NMRA folks, but the Boston "Hub"
regional NMRA is not only RPM friendly but for many years has given
talks and local meets that feature regional prototypes. And I also
found scores of wonderful prototype models at an NMRA regional in
Austin TX almost 20 years ago.

To paraphrase Tip O'Neil, "all modeling is local".

As for RTR vs kits, I think Kadee has the answer: an RTR model
that can be turned into a kit in about 5 minutes!

Tim O'Connor

Kurt,

If you are a tank modeler, are you familiar with the U.S. ARMY ORDNANCE MUSEUM, MUSEUM GUIDE & REFERENCE CD? This thing has photos of tanks and other heavy metal stuff preserved at Aberdeen, including some German, Italian and Japanese WWII pieces. These are the real deal, not models.

If interested, I can send you the order address.

I am not a tankist, and don't know much about the images on the disk (I'm into medieval bows and swords). My sweetie, who works for the Army, bought this disk as a gift when she went there for a seminar.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Kurt Laughlin wrote:

Jerry Michels wrote (replying to Charlie Vlk):

The Prototype Modelers movement far exceeds NMRA contest participation of years past and the level of craftsmanship exhibited by modelers of all ages tells me that we are in the Golden Age of Model Railroading no matter what area you are interested in

Amen to that Charlie!

I agree too. There is no more telling indictment of the NMRA than the turnout of models at RPM meets all over the country. And most of the NMRA brass still cannot figure out how to speak politely to RPM types.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Hello,

I have a copy of a photo of tank car E.C.X. 188 lettered for �Constantin
Refining Company, Tulsa, Okla.� It appears to be the builders photo
(Neg. 170141-A-1) for a car built by ACF under Lot Number 7749, dated
August 13th, 1915. Based upon the photographic evidence, I would
describe the car as an ACF Type 11, MCB Class II, 8000 gallons and
80,000 pounds capacity, equipped with 40 ton arch bar trucks and �K�
type brakes, and built of five vertical courses with single row rivets.

Similar looking cars are shown on pages 91 and 92 of Kaminski, Edward
S., TANK CARS: American Car and Foundry Company, 1865 to 1955.

In Epstein, Ralph C., GATX: A History of the General American
Transportation Corporation, 1898-1948, North River Press, 1948, on page
93, the growth of GATX included the absorption of the �Constantine Tank
Line of Oklahoma� in 1927 with its 1,061 tank cars.

Apparently, Eugene Constantin owned both the Refining Company and the
Tank Line from the early 1910s until 1927.

Any other information about either Constantin Refining Co. or Constantin
Tank Line and its tank cars would be appreciated.


Cheers,

David Turner
Keeping the S. P. & S. Rwy. alive in Santa Rosa, California

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Scott Pitzer" <scottp459@...>

wrote:

Several of these tales have mentioned the publisher's "hurry up" attitude, which surprised me

given the subject matter.

<snip>

The "hurry up" has to do with eating regularly. For some of the publishers we have mentioned,

their only source of

income is the two books per month they must publish in order to have a regular income.

Gene Green

The early in the day publisher we have mentioned has no fears about his next meal. For quite some
time.

SGL





E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441)
Database version: 6.12470
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I'll throw in my view from the tank/airplane hobby. . .

1. While there are a ton of conversion/correction kits in resin and photo-etched brass, it is a rare hobby shop that has even 100 items of the type in stock Most people get them from internet shops or shops that travel the shows selling in the vendor areas.
2. As I've said before, any tank/aircraft model part supplier (or car, or ship, for that matter) that doesn't use the Internet is someone with a longing to be an ex-supplier. This hobby has a bizarrely large number of "don't do computers" suppliers. (Any number > 0 is bizarre to me . . .)
3. The aftermarket suppliers have had some unusual competition since about 2000: More and more of the "they'll never make that as injection-molded kit" subjects are being released. There are a number of kits out there where your average hobby shop has more copies of the kit than the Army or Air Force made of the real vehicle. These aren't cottage industry resin kits but top-of-the-line injection molded kits.
4. One complication in Model RRing is that you have to build EVERYTHING to one extent or another, while in the other hobbies the modeler can concentrate on the vehicle. I think this dilutes the spirit to put as much effort into a box car as in your typical tank or fighter jet.
5. The Internet has helped greatly - fantastically - with research. I remember waiting for the twice monthly armor magazine to arrive and writing letters - and waiting. In contrast, yesterday afternoon I got wind of a heretofore "unknown" tank in upstate NY. Last night I emailed a guy - from a website forum - and asked he would be interested in stopping by to take some pics. Today I got an answer that he's going that way (to a hobby shop!) later this week and will take pix and email them. Previously that would eat up about three months span, I recon.

KL

Gene Green wrote:

The "hurry up" has to do with eating regularly. For some of the publishers we have mentioned, their only source of income is the two books per month they must publish in order to have a regular income.

Now there's a great reason to issue junk. Ah well, as with so many things, caveat emptor.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Jack-
And you, sir, have shown us a great model for documenting our own favorite railroad or segment thereof!!!
Thanks for sharing through your numerous articles in the model press!!
Charlie Vlk

Brian-
Yes, I've got the RPC library too, but for the purposes of this list, even though the sides were identical to the X29, other major dimensions varied according to the table included in that issue so calling them X29s isn't strictly kosher. They were 1923 ARA proposed standard design cars of NYC Lot 504-B.....the length over strikers and truck centers varied between them and there were no doubt appliance differences as well.
Charlie Vlk




Yes but the NYC sampled 100 of them. See the latest RPC for a picyure of one.
Brian Carlson

.

Jack is correct... except I didn't mention a NYC X29.... even a
Burlington fan knows that is a PRR prototype....<gggg>

That only proves my ignorance about any prototype except my own and my
complete reliance on others! <g>

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Everyone, would you pleas to consider trimming your posts so that we don't
have to scroll down through seven or eight pages of old posts to get at the
message? Please, have some internet courtesy!

Jerry Michels
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377034x1201454326/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=
MaystepsfooterNO62)

Regarding this seemingly never-ending thread. I'll suggest this. For
those who are lamenting the short supply of kits (no, they are not gone), get
together enough compatriots who will guarantee to buy a minimum of 300 kits
of any car InterMountain or Branchline makes, and the Amarillo Railroad
Museum will look into producing it for you. Any takers?

Jerry Michels
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377034x1201454326/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=
MaystepsfooterNO62)

The Prototype Modelers movement far exceeds NMRA contest participation of
years past and the level of craftsmanship exhibited by modelers of all ages
tells me that we are in the Golden Age of Model Railroading no matter what
area you are interested in

Amen to that Charlie!

Jerry Michels
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377034x1201454326/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=
MaystepsfooterNO62)

--- In STMFC@..., "Scott Pitzer" <scottp459@...> wrote:

Several of these tales have mentioned the publisher's "hurry up" attitude, which surprised me given the subject matter. <snip>

The "hurry up" has to do with eating regularly. For some of the publishers we have mentioned, their only source of income is the two books per month they must publish in order to have a regular income.

Gene Green

On Tue, 26 May 2009 15:58:08 -0500, Charlie Vlk wrote

Jack is correct... except I didn't mention a NYC X29.... even a
Burlington fan knows that is a PRR prototype....<gggg> The volume of
prototype data that keeps surfacing, both in print and digital, is

amazing!!!

Charlie Vlk

Yes but the NYC sampled 100 of them. See the latest RPC for a picyure of one.
Brian Carlson

Jack is correct... except I didn't mention a NYC X29.... even a Burlington fan knows that is a PRR prototype....<gggg>
The volume of prototype data that keeps surfacing, both in print and digital, is amazing!!!
Charlie Vlk