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Milwaukee, WI Photographs
Ernie Valentine
This may have been already covered. If so my apologies. I just joined list.
The is a collection of railroad and streetcar photos by Lyle Oberwise at the Milwaukee, WI Amtrak Depot (the wall by the vending machines). One of possible interest to this group is titled Menomonie River Yard 1946. It's a color photo of the MILW yards in 1946. I spent a good 45 minutes looking at it. Besides the usual midwest roads; a couple of highlights: In forground DT&I covered hopper. White spot on roof could be either white silica sand or cement. A WP DS box, looks like USRA(or clone). Hoppers from PRR. ERIE & RDG (Erie car looks almost new) A NH box in far background. A higher percentage of reefers that I would have expected, most of them heavily weathered. If anyone is in Milwaukee between now and December, it might be worth a look. Ernie Valentine [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: Stockcar Photos Uploaded - Drovers
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
James Dick wrote:
Regarding complaints of drovers, the two major complaints I have seen were complaints of drovers climbing on top of and riding on top cars while the train was in motion. The second complaint came from caboose crews regarding drovers having the interior lights on in cabooses so that they could read.I saw a note in the SP files at CSRM about drovers leaving a mess of trash in the cabooses they used. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Intermountain MILW Rib Side Boxcars
ken_olson54022 <kwolson@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
In a case like the above I always take note of who said what and adjust my credibility ratings accordingly. It makes my modeling life simpler every time the "BS" filter gets tuned a little finer. Ken Olson
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Re: Stockcar Photos Uploaded - Drovers
np328
Most of what I have read in NP records pretty much falls in
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line with what others have posted. Regarding complaints of drovers, the two major complaints I have seen were complaints of drovers climbing on top of and riding on top cars while the train was in motion. The second complaint came from caboose crews regarding drovers having the interior lights on in cabooses so that they could read. One crew complaint letter spoke of "drovers always asking that the lights be on after dark and everyone of them seems to have a dimestore novel in the back pocket". (Zane Grey perhaps?) The interior light reflected from the lights affected the ability of crews to see out and properly observe the train. With bay window cabooses, this was a major problem, with cupola equipped cabooses less of a problem. The NP must have valued this traffic as they spent time and money to rebuild some older cabooses into dedicated drovers cars. There are some pictures of these BN (NP) drovers cars rebuilt from bay window cabooses (which had been already rebuilt prior during WWII from obsolete boxcars) at this site <http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/> Plug in this RVN search number - RVN29792 While you are in this site, grab a cup of coffee and take a look around. Lots of good stuff, lots of different railroads, done by a most talented photographer. James Dick - St. Paul
--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:
Folks, Being raised in the subs of Chicago, and having relatives in Redfield, South Dakota, who tell me that my grandfather would ride the train with his cattle or pigs to the "stock yard" for insuring a fair auction with the big boys . . . . should know more about these drovers. Where they hired to travel with livestock or were they the owners of the livestock? or both? When did they stop using those large cabooses (saw one in a museum in Saint Cloud, Wisc?) with extra bunk beds? Al Kresse
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Re: Reefer Block trains on Southeastern Lines-photos and Time Tables sought
water.kresse@...
Bill,
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As mentioned before, my memory is short lived, but I believe there was at least a second train, not just No. 97 during the peach season. The C&O and CC&O FAST FREIGHT or TIMED FREIGHT train numbers were coordinated at some date it appears. They also worked together to shorten total in transit times (and needed re-icing stops) from the groves to the market over time. There are notes referencing last locations were un-assigned produce would be handled (i.e. the C&O wanted someone to charge when they got to splitting up for the Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, etc. produce markets). You also didn't want meat reefers coming out of Chicago or Louisville wanting to be iced at the same time as the northbound produce reefers. Al
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From: "lnbill" <bwelch@...> Dear Al: I cannot say for certain if the CC&O's Challengers were used specificaly for peach movements as I am uncertain if there were other produce trains aside from #97. I am just beginning to look into this aspect of FGE/WFE/BRE's business. Bill --- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote: Peach Specials and such? I've seen pix of Clinchfield 4-6-6-4's pulling southbound C&O Fast Freights with reefers with a single 2-8- 4s up the hill into their Elkton(?) C&O-Clinchfield exchange yard. Express/ Western Fruit Express/Burlington Refrigerator Express reeferthat had trains of nothing but reefer blocks. For example theClinchfield's Train #97 pulled by one of their 4-6-6-4's or the SAL's "Theown with southeastern photos of these specific trains and others andDavid Salter who lives somewhere in Colorado owns the photos of these twoMr. Salter?the schedules of these trains, so I am curious if there are collectorspay all insurance and postage costs associated with such help. Orperhaps you know of collectors that I can reach out to.answer questions like this. I can tell everyone that all sorts onincredible treasures have come my way over the last several months and I amme and that baring something happening to me, this thing will getdone.
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Re: Reefer Block trains on Southeastern Lines-photos and Time Tables sought
lnbill <bwelch@...>
Dear Al:
I cannot say for certain if the CC&O's Challengers were used specificaly for peach movements as I am uncertain if there were other produce trains aside from #97. I am just beginning to look into this aspect of FGE/WFE/BRE's business. Bill --- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote: Peach Specials and such? I've seen pix of Clinchfield 4-6-6-4's pulling southbound C&O Fast Freights with reefers with a single 2-8- 4s up the hill into their Elkton(?) C&O-Clinchfield exchange yard. Express/ Western Fruit Express/Burlington Refrigerator Express reeferthat had trains of nothing but reefer blocks. For example theClinchfield's Train #97 pulled by one of their 4-6-6-4's or the SAL's "Theown with southeastern photos of these specific trains and others andDavid Salter who lives somewhere in Colorado owns the photos of these twoMr. Salter?the schedules of these trains, so I am curious if there are collectorspay all insurance and postage costs associated with such help. Orperhaps you know of collectors that I can reach out to.answer questions like this. I can tell everyone that all sorts onincredible treasures have come my way over the last several months and I amme and that baring something happening to me, this thing will getdone.
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Re: Reefer Block trains on Southeastern Lines-photos and Time Tables sought
water.kresse@...
Al,
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How old is this book and who is the publisher? C&O agents up north would consolidate these time tables for the various southeastern rwys interconnecting with the C&O (and later, C&O and B&O) and publish them as typical times at the beginning of each SE "veggie and fruit produce" shipping season. The C&O-Chinchfield-FGE operation appears to have been very tightly coordinated and received great attention in C&O Chf Engr letter files supporting AFE's when there were bottlenecks in the C&O's yards. What I find interesting in these files was that the FGE was asking the C&O to expand their re-icing facilities for quicker re-icings supporting the Southeast to Midwestern produce market specials as the FGE was testing mechanical refrigeration in the mid/late-50s. Al Kresse
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From: "al_brown03" <abrown@...> Goforth's "When Steam Ran the Clinchfield", pp 69 and 85, shows Clinchfield Challengers with northbound reefer blocks operating as first-class Train 97, the "Florida Perishable". Both photos are credited to Floyd Bruner. The same book, pp 5-6, shows a timetable. Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla. --- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote: Peach Specials and such? I've seen pix of Clinchfield 4-6-6-4's pulling southbound C&O Fast Freights with reefers with a single 2-8- 4s up the hill into their Elkton(?) C&O-Clinchfield exchange yard. that had trains of nothing but reefer blocks. For example theClinchfield's Train #97 pulled by one of their 4-6-6-4's or the SAL's "Theown with southeastern photos of these specific trains and others andDavid Salter who lives somewhere in Colorado owns the photos of these twothe schedules of these trains, so I am curious if there are collectorsperhaps you know of collectors that I can reach out to.answer questions like this. I can tell everyone that all sorts onincredible treasures have come my way over the last several months and I amme and that baring something happening to me, this thing will get done.
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Re: Reefer Block trains on Southeastern Lines-photos and Time Tables sought
al_brown03
Goforth's "When Steam Ran the Clinchfield", pp 69 and 85, shows
Clinchfield Challengers with northbound reefer blocks operating as first-class Train 97, the "Florida Perishable". Both photos are credited to Floyd Bruner. The same book, pp 5-6, shows a timetable. Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla. --- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote: Peach Specials and such? I've seen pix of Clinchfield 4-6-6-4's pulling southbound C&O Fast Freights with reefers with a single 2-8- 4s up the hill into their Elkton(?) C&O-Clinchfield exchange yard. that had trains of nothing but reefer blocks. For example theClinchfield's Train #97 pulled by one of their 4-6-6-4's or the SAL's "Theown with southeastern photos of these specific trains and others andDavid Salter who lives somewhere in Colorado owns the photos of these twothe schedules of these trains, so I am curious if there are collectorsperhaps you know of collectors that I can reach out to.answer questions like this. I can tell everyone that all sorts onincredible treasures have come my way over the last several months and I amme and that baring something happening to me, this thing will get done.
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The Keystone Modeler - September 2008
benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
The September 2008 issue of The Keystone Modeler, featuring "Class
X37B, the Sunshine Kit" by Elden Gatwood is online at http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm Ben Hom
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Re: Reefer Block trains on Southeastern Lines-photos and Time Tables sought
water.kresse@...
Bill,
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Did the Clinchfield actually use their Challanger's to pull their Peach Specials and such? I've seen pix of Clinchfield 4-6-6-4's pulling southbound C&O Fast Freights with reefers with a single 2-8-4s up the hill into their Elkton(?) C&O-Clinchfield exchange yard. Al
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From: "lnbill" <bwelch@...> As a part of the book I am researching on the Fruit Growers Express/ Western Fruit Express/Burlington Refrigerator Express reefer consortium, I would love to have photos of the various railroads that had trains of nothing but reefer blocks. For example the Clinchfield's Train #97 pulled by one of their 4-6-6-4's or the SAL's "The Marketer." Frank Audrey and R.D Sharpless are credited in many of the books I own with southeastern photos of these specific trains and others and David Salter who lives somewhere in Colorado owns the photos of these two men. Does anyone on this list know how to be get in contact with Mr. Salter? Also, it would seem that readers would enjoy information regarding the schedules of these trains, so I am curious if there are collectors among the freight car group of Time Tables for the Southern, Clinchfield (or CC&O), ACL, SAL, CofG, FEC and other roads in this region that moved large numbers of reefers northerly that would be willing to share time tables with me to scan? I would of course pay all insurance and postage costs associated with such help. Or perhaps you know of collectors that I can reach out to. Please respond to bwelch@... if you can help. I would appreciate not getting inquiries about the book as between my paying job, building models, and assembling resources, I feel like I cannot answer questions like this. I can tell everyone that all sorts on incredible treasures have come my way over the last several months and I am grateful beyond words for how generous people have been in helping me and that baring something happening to me, this thing will get done. Thank you for any help you can be! Bill Welch
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Re: Reefer Block trains on Southeastern Lines-photos and Time Tables sought
water.kresse@...
Bill,
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Relative to time tables, the C&O/B&O time tables and advertisements for specific seasons with agents are available through Tom Dixon, via TLC Publishing. I only have Zerox copies. The C&O advertised the "Chinchfield Route" and definitely had coordination. I used and referenced them in my two C&O History Magazine articles on th FGE re-icing stations at Clifton Forge and Russell. I offered you copies of these articles, but because of website problems on your end, I do not believe I received a response. I had to chop a lot out my articles to stay within page limits. I believe the Penn RR re-icing station in Columbus, is a near copy of the C&O's CliftonForge platform . . . implying a "standard" 1935 platform design from FGE's engineering offices. I'm looking for C&O Stevens Yard and Peru Yard (and the new 1000 ft long "phantom" 1956-ish Russell westbound) re-icing platform photos to wrap up the C&O's side of the story prior to mechanical refrig taking over. Please contact me off line. Al Kresse Romeo, Michigan
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From: "lnbill" <bwelch@...> As a part of the book I am researching on the Fruit Growers Express/ Western Fruit Express/Burlington Refrigerator Express reefer consortium, I would love to have photos of the various railroads that had trains of nothing but reefer blocks. For example the Clinchfield's Train #97 pulled by one of their 4-6-6-4's or the SAL's "The Marketer." Frank Audrey and R.D Sharpless are credited in many of the books I own with southeastern photos of these specific trains and others and David Salter who lives somewhere in Colorado owns the photos of these two men. Does anyone on this list know how to be get in contact with Mr. Salter? Also, it would seem that readers would enjoy information regarding the schedules of these trains, so I am curious if there are collectors among the freight car group of Time Tables for the Southern, Clinchfield (or CC&O), ACL, SAL, CofG, FEC and other roads in this region that moved large numbers of reefers northerly that would be willing to share time tables with me to scan? I would of course pay all insurance and postage costs associated with such help. Or perhaps you know of collectors that I can reach out to. Please respond to bwelch@... if you can help. I would appreciate not getting inquiries about the book as between my paying job, building models, and assembling resources, I feel like I cannot answer questions like this. I can tell everyone that all sorts on incredible treasures have come my way over the last several months and I am grateful beyond words for how generous people have been in helping me and that baring something happening to me, this thing will get done. Thank you for any help you can be! Bill Welch
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Re: Stockcar Photos Uploaded
Charlie Vlk
The CB&Q had "Drovers Cars" which were built to the standard 30 Ft wood waycar plan (1906 is one year they were built).
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The old Trains, Inc. (later Signal House and LMB) CB&Q Wood Waycar was actually built following the Drovers Car of 1906 and has the end windows and stove on the side opposite normal wood waycars, The window on the end at the dry hopper (toilet) should be a high small one in any case. The Q Drovers Cars differed from an ordinary waycar only in having more bunks (double deck), and there was a bunk/seat facing rearwards where there would normally be an equipment locker. The conductor's desk and normal railroad-related supplies (flags, fusees, lanterns, etc..) were also not stored in the car, although there was a normal cupola with standard seats. They also had "boarding cars" which were waycar-like in construction but longer and riding on standard No.2 passenger trucks. They did not have cupolas and it is not certain if these were used as drovers cars or were strictly camp cars for work train service. The passenger combines that had cupolas could have been used for drovers but probably were "branchline waycars" used in mixed trains on secondary lines. Model Railroaders tend to confuse the term "Drovers Caboose" with any caboose that has a baggage door on the side. Many, if not most, drovers cabooses did not have baggage doors, although their inclusion would have made it easier for the cowboys to load their saddles and gear onboard. Charlie Vlk
----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson To: STMFC@... Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Stockcar Photos Uploaded Dennis Storzek wrote: > Not all railroads used the classic long drover's caboose. Some roads > just accommodated the drovers in the regular caboose (not popular with > the crews, I'm sure) . . . On the SP, a second standard caboose was often attached for the drovers' use. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: 9/10/2008 6:00 AM
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Reefer Block trains on Southeastern Lines-photos and Time Tables sought
lnbill <bwelch@...>
As a part of the book I am researching on the Fruit Growers Express/
Western Fruit Express/Burlington Refrigerator Express reefer consortium, I would love to have photos of the various railroads that had trains of nothing but reefer blocks. For example the Clinchfield's Train #97 pulled by one of their 4-6-6-4's or the SAL's "The Marketer." Frank Audrey and R.D Sharpless are credited in many of the books I own with southeastern photos of these specific trains and others and David Salter who lives somewhere in Colorado owns the photos of these two men. Does anyone on this list know how to be get in contact with Mr. Salter? Also, it would seem that readers would enjoy information regarding the schedules of these trains, so I am curious if there are collectors among the freight car group of Time Tables for the Southern, Clinchfield (or CC&O), ACL, SAL, CofG, FEC and other roads in this region that moved large numbers of reefers northerly that would be willing to share time tables with me to scan? I would of course pay all insurance and postage costs associated with such help. Or perhaps you know of collectors that I can reach out to. Please respond to bwelch@... if you can help. I would appreciate not getting inquiries about the book as between my paying job, building models, and assembling resources, I feel like I cannot answer questions like this. I can tell everyone that all sorts on incredible treasures have come my way over the last several months and I am grateful beyond words for how generous people have been in helping me and that baring something happening to me, this thing will get done. Thank you for any help you can be! Bill Welch
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Re: Stockcar Photos Uploaded
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Dennis Storzek wrote:
Not all railroads used the classic long drover's caboose. Some roads just accommodated the drovers in the regular caboose (not popular with the crews, I'm sure) . . .On the SP, a second standard caboose was often attached for the drovers' use. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Stockcar Photos Uploaded
Dennis Storzek
--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:
Redfield, South Dakota, who tell me that my grandfather would ride the train with his cattle or pigs to the "stock yard" for insuring a fair auction with the big boys . . . . should know more about these drovers. Where they hired to travel with livestock or were they the owners of the livestock? or both? When did they stop using those large cabooses (saw one in a museum in Saint Cloud, Wisc?) with extra bunk beds? Drovers could be either owners or employees. If I recall what I read correctly, each shipment of a carload or more entitled one drover to free transportation, with a coupon good for one way coach fare back to his point of origin. Not all railroads used the classic long drover's caboose. Some roads just accommodated the drovers in the regular caboose (not popular with the crews, I'm sure) while others, such as the Soo Line rebuilt old coaches for the service. On the Soo, the drovers cars had all the seats removed from one end of the car and permanent bunks built in their place. The drovers were responsible for supplying their own blankets and bedding. There was an account of a stock trip on the Soo Line "wheat line" across northern North Dakota a couple years ago in The SOO, the magazine of the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society. Back issues can be ordered here: http://sooline.org/publications/theSOO/past.html You want Spring 2004, Vol.26 No.2 Dennis
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Re: Stockcar Photos Uploaded
water.kresse@...
Folks,
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Being raised in the subs of Chicago, and having relatives in Redfield, South Dakota, who tell me that my grandfather would ride the train with his cattle or pigs to the "stock yard" for insuring a fair auction with the big boys . . . . should know more about these drovers. Where they hired to travel with livestock or were they the owners of the livestock? or both? When did they stop using those large cabooses (saw one in a museum in Saint Cloud, Wisc?) with extra bunk beds? Al Kresse
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From: "Andy Sperandeo" <asperandeo@...> Hi Al, That door at the top of the end was called a drover's door, and its purpose was to let stockmen accompanying a shipment look in to see if the animals were okay. Later classes of similar cars -- and there were a lot of them -- came with toe holes cut into the end siding below the drover's door. The Sk-Q class of 250 cars (ATSF 68600-68849) was built in 1928 by the Pennsylvania Car Co. (of Kansas City!). So long, Andy
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Re: PSC Hose Brackets
pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
If they look as good as they sound, I'm prepared to buy a great pile
of them. A gross or more. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Pierre Oliver --- In STMFC@..., Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...> wrote: to eliminate broken air hoses laying around the layout. Not bullet proof, but close. Dennis Storzek and advocate with PSC Denny Anspach. good since I ordered them sight-unseen. Yesterday I put my first setonto a car I was building and I think they look great. It took some slowto the bracket but I managed to eventually get a #76 hole drilled. Ialso managed to get a plastic (Detail Associates I think) air hoseattached. us guys who hate the look of Kadee trip pins. I forget who wasmentioned about working with PSC to get this part done but a big THANK YOU toyou. There are 8 castings in a package.
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Re: PSC Hose Brackets
Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
Tom,
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Yes, they look great. I use PSC brass air hoses in the to eliminate broken air hoses laying around the layout. Not bullet proof, but close. Credit for the project should go to pattern makers Chad Boas, Dennis Storzek and advocate with PSC Denny Anspach. Buy lots of them so PSC will listen when Denny speaks. Mont Switzer
--- On Wed, 9/10/08, Tom Lawler <tjlawler@...> wrote:
From: Tom Lawler <tjlawler@...> Subject: [STMFC] PSC Hose Brackets To: "Steam Era Freight Cars Group" <STMFC@...> Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 10:17 AM Hi all, I ordered and received a bunch of the new PSC Hose Brackets after hearing about them on this list. I was really hoping they looked good since I ordered them sight-unseen. Yesterday I put my first set onto a car I was building and I think they look great. It took some slow drilling open up the casting where the U bolt attaches the air hose to the bracket but I managed to eventually get a #76 hole drilled. I also managed to get a plastic (Detail Associates I think) air hose attached. All-in-all very nice looking and a part that was sorely needed for us guys who hate the look of Kadee trip pins. I forget who was mentioned about working with PSC to get this part done but a big THANK YOU to you. There are 8 castings in a package. Tom Lawler E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10640e http://www.pctools. com/en/spyware- doctor/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: PSC Hose Brackets
Dennis Storzek
--- In STMFC@..., Frank Greene <frgreene290@...> wrote:
PSC doesn't actually show them on their web site, but the Part No. is 39156. Who wants to take a photo of them and put it in the Photos section along with my prototype photos? Dennis
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Re: Stockcar Photos Uploaded
Charlie Vlk
The Illinois Railway Museum has restored ATSF 60394 and it is in like new condition (no loads yet).
IIRC it has the toehold holes in the ends. Charlie Vlk http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?freight=Atchison+Topeka+&+Santa+Fe+Railroad=60394
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