Date   

Re: Auto box cars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote:
"So Ben from wheel reports, how about these for starters?

UP 475300
UP 475000-475499, Class A-50-19, built 1947. Starting point would be a
C&BT postwar double-door boxcar model with rectangular panel roof or
Branchline 8 ft door model. Soph Marty photo from the RPI website:
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/displayimage.php?i=20501#

ACL 52600
ACL 52128-52827, Class O-23, built 1942. The Athearn (ex-MDC) model
would be a
better starting point for this car than the Red Caboose model as the
prototype had an IH of 10 ft 4 in. Photo from the pay side of the RPI
website:
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/displayimage.php?i=20706#


Ben Hom


Re: 40' Auto Box

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 6/19/2008 3:00:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
jaguar66@... writes:

It shows the common ways of placing cars within a box car during the
pre-WWII period. The image is from the D&RGW Manual of Procedures,
1940.


DIck,

This is a standard RR form following the recommendations of the AAR's
Freight Claims Division used to record damage to autos that may have occurred
during shipping or unloading within cars equipped with auto loading devices. Any
intial damage done during the loading process was also recorded and sent
along with the auto(s) loaded within the car.

The diagram to the left represents a car equipped with Evans Auto-Loaders
and a typical four car load. The diagram to the right is for a typical load of
three autos small enough to be configured in this fashion. If the load had
contained three larger autos -- two of them would have been loaded and
positioned on the racks while the third was secured to the floor toward one end (or
the other) depending on the location of the car's floor tie-downs.

The list below the diagrams is that of the more common minor damages that
occurred during shipment.

Kind Regards,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI




**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)


Re: Auto box cars

rwitt_2000
 

Ben Hom replied to

Armand Premo asked:
"Actually I was looking for a more or less generic 40 footer that
could be easily kit bashed for several roads."

NYC 69000
NYC 68000-69349, Lot 738-B, converted 1945 from Lots 590-B, 594-B and
610-B built in 1929-1930. No kit available; looks to be a
challenging kitbash from a Westerfield NYC automobile boxcar,
splicing the sides to get a 10 ft IH car and adding new doors and
ends. The Red Caboose model isn't a terribly good starting point as
the prototype has the double line side rivet pattern common to the
NYC "family" of 1920s-1930s boxcars. Photos are of Lot 610-B cars.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-738.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-55999.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-199384.jpg
There is a photo of NYC 88429 at the Canada Southern site from the Jay
Williams collection that looks similar to the Lot 738-B at:

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-88429.jpg
<http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-88429.jpg>
Some of the modeling problems would be resolved if we had more NYC
boxcars as resin kits. They do have an interesting fleet of boxcars.

Also notice in the photo the RI boxcar 23844 with "dart-naught" ends
with a little rib below the top rib.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana


Re: Auto box cars

Bill Schneider <branchline@...>
 

Hmmmm... Seems a Branchline 8' door 40' undec with a set of our double doors and a new side sill would work too... I might try that...!

Thanks Ben,

Bill Schneider

NYC 70026
NYC 70000-70999, Lot 760-B built 1947. I'd need another photo to
c>onfirm the ends and roof, but it looks like you can use the C&BT
postwar double door boxcar as a starting point.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-760.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-70000.jpg
Thanks to Terry Link for maintaining this information online.
More on the other cars later - it takes time to run this stuff down,
and this isn't the only thing on my "to do" list.
Ben Hom


Re: Auto box cars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Armand Premo asked:
"Actually I was looking for a more or less generic 40 footer that
could be easily kit bashed for several roads."

An alternate that will require more work but is the Athearn (ex-MDC)
40 ft automobile boxcar:
http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH70172

This model was done by MDC around the same time they retooled their
pre-war AAR boxcar; the doors are molded onto the carbody. I
couldn't find any listing for undec kits on the Athearn website, but
you may be able to find some old MDC stock out there.

"While I have some resin cars none are of those I had in mind. So Ben
from wheel reports, how about these for starters?

NYC 69000
NYC 68000-69349, Lot 738-B, converted 1945 from Lots 590-B, 594-B and
610-B built in 1929-1930. No kit available; looks to be a
challenging kitbash from a Westerfield NYC automobile boxcar,
splicing the sides to get a 10 ft IH car and adding new doors and
ends. The Red Caboose model isn't a terribly good starting point as
the prototype has the double line side rivet pattern common to the
NYC "family" of 1920s-1930s boxcars. Photos are of Lot 610-B cars.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-738.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-55999.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-199384.jpg

NYC 70026
NYC 70000-70999, Lot 760-B built 1947. I'd need another photo to
confirm the ends and roof, but it looks like you can use the C&BT
postwar double door boxcar as a starting point.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-760.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-70000.jpg

Thanks to Terry Link for maintaining this information online.

More on the other cars later - it takes time to run this stuff down,
and this isn't the only thing on my "to do" list.


Ben Hom


Re: 40'Autobox cars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
"Interestingly, at least on the PRR, the cars with end doors were
50' or longer (X33, X33a, X38a, X40c)"

Not entirely true. Class X25A had end doors.


Ben Hom


Re: 40'Autobox cars

Bruce Smith
 

On Jun 19, 2008, at 6:06 AM, armprem1 wrote:

Thank you all.Open the spigot and then comes the flood. (Information
that is)We have yet to mention those cars with end doors to facilitate
loading.How many models are there?How many roads rostered them?Armand
Premo
Armand,

The end door automobile cars were definitely a minority of the population and I doubt that many of them were also equipped with auto loaders (although I note that the X40c shown at http:// prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=RailClassics/ X40c.jpg&fr=clX40 appears to have both). The end doors were usually used when the cargo was too big to easily maneuver through the double side doors, hence the cargo would not have been appropriate for loader racks. That made these cars useful for delivery of larger vehicles such as the firetrucks Elden mentioned for the PRR X30, as well as smaller trucks and vehicles like busses. I have seen a photo of a DUWK being loaded/unloaded via an end door and the very first US Army Air Force jet, the Bell XP-59A was delivered to Muroc Army Airfield for testing in 1942 in an L&N end door auto car. Interestingly, at least on the PRR, the cars with end doors were 50' or longer (X33, X33a, X38a, X40c)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: 40'Autobox cars

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 6/19/2008 8:46:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
smithbf@... writes:

That made these cars useful for delivery of larger vehicles such as the fire
trucks Elden mentioned for the PRR X30, as well as smaller trucks and
vehicles like busses.
PRR also added Type "F" Auto-Loaders and sixteen tiedowns to sixty foot
36991 (no end doors) and utilized it to haul six automobiles. The car was listed
(at least) as early as July, 1947 and was off the roster (so equipped) by
October, 1950. My guess is this was assigned to a special service or may have
lost favor due to it's bulk within loading facilities built to accommodate
forty and fifty foot cars.

Thanks to A.T. Kott for the info.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI





**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)


Re: 40' Auto Box

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 6/18/2008 9:42:47 AM Central Daylight Time,
b.hom@... writes:

This was obviously extremely inefficient; the development of the
Evans Auto Loader doubled the carrying capacity of a 40 ft car from
two to four cars ("two up and two down"). The catch was that this
required a taller car to accomodate loaded automobiles and provide
headroom to stow the empty racks.

Shipping two cars would have been highly inefficient and that's why is was
seldom done. The photo you refer to may have been some special or LCL type,
but was not typical of the time period. The minimum tariff requirement during
this period was 12,500 lb., and most manufacturers met this with multiple
vehicle loads.

Many autos were shipped "stripped" down and packed into cars to be completed
upon delivery. Most that were shipped complete were tilted within cars and
held in position with reusable "decking" devices with both the decking device
and auto wired and nailed securely to the car floor and walls.

Nearly every manufacturer of the period owned patents on their own designs
of such devices. Many auto cars of the period were also equipped with
stirrups mounted to car lines or one of many center roof beam designs allowing for
the lifting of vehicles in order to position the decking devices. They were
seldom jacked into position, the vehicles were lifted with the aid of chain
block devices attached to the stirrups or roof beams. Both Chicago Cleveland
and Hutchins were responsible for early designs of roofs with these built in
devices.

The Evans Auto-Loader did not double the capacity of cars it only assured a
fairly efficient, permanent loading device able to be stored allowing for
other lading. And, yes, the utilization of Evans Auto-Loaders would help to
expedite the use of taller cars, but there were enough installations into 10' IH
cars to disprove the notion that the cars needed to be "taller" in order to
utilize loaders.

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI





**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)


Re: 40'Autobox cars

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 6/19/2008 6:07:06 AM Central Daylight Time,
armprem@... writes:

We have yet to mention those cars with end doors to facilitate
loading. How many models are there? How many roads rostered them?
Less than 10% of cars equipped with Auto-Loaders had end doors. The end
doors were not used to facilitate loading of autos or small trucks onto racks.
A load of three vehicles could have been loaded thru end doors, but it would
have been mechanically impossible to load the fourth within a forty foot car,
and it's doubtful that is was possible within the confines of a fifty footer
either. There was simply not enough clearance under a loaded rack to allow
another vehicle to pass under it completely and the support legs could not
have been secured properly to support the racked vehicle in a longitudinal
position anyway.

Most of these types were dual purpose cars allowing for three to four autos
or small trucks loaded thru the side doors, or larger vehicles loaded thru the
end doors and likely secured in positions on the floor only with racks
secured in the ceiling. Auto loading docks at larger facilities were designed for
side loading with separate trackage for end door loading. It was simply
inefficient to switch end door cars in numbers utilized for auto loading.

CP, CB&Q, Erie, LV, MC, NYC, SLSF, SRR owned cars with both end doors and
Auto-Loaders (post WWII) All, aside from the NYC cars, were equipped with Evans
loaders and the vast majority of these cars were 40 footers. The SRR
40200-40249 cars were the only fifty foot cars with end doors that I have found
that were equipped for loading up to five vehicles. Many roads operated fifty
foot and forty foot cars with end doors with floor tiedowns sans racks
including the Santa Fe and RI. Others operated a good number of side door only cars
in the same fashion which were usually assigned to truck loading facilities.
Many of such cars were originally equipped with Auto-Loaders which were
removed or stored "permanently".

Regards,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI






**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)


Re: Santa Fe Tank Car

David North <davenorth@...>
 

Looks like it might be the PSC much-maligned 16K gallon brass tankcar. I see
them go for 40-75 dollars on ebay.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



Hi Andy,

That is exactly what it is.

Iron Horse Models by Precision Scale Models.

Label says 16'000 gallons Tank Car

Cheers

Dave North


40'Autobox cars

armprem
 

Thank you all.Open the spigot and then comes the flood. (Information
that is)We have yet to mention those cars with end doors to facilitate
loading.How many models are there?How many roads rostered them?Armand
Premo


Re: question for the oldest members

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Ed--

The two cars that I posted the photos of were in company service by the
time that I photographed them.

I am looking at a photo of Palmerston, Ontario taken in Sept., 1958.
It shows many CN cars, including two of these steel-frame 503500-series
40' cars. One seems to have its paint darkened from CN Red #11 to a
colour similar to Modelflex IC brown, but in good shape. The other car
has the first five boards or so from the bottom of the car freshly re-
painted standard CN (freight car) Red #11, the weight stencilling on
this part of the car being new. The rest of this car is a dirty,
blackened FC red with the reporting marks nearly impossible to read.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

The pictures of 2 CN single sheathed box cars lead me to this
question.

Was it common to find wood sided cars with much of the paint missing
in
revenue service when the car had years of service remaining?

We see pictures of wood sided cars with a lot of paint missing - in
museums, MOW service, last years of service .......

Ed


Re: Santa Fe Tank Car

James Fellows
 

This info is of great help. Any idea's for road names? and were they all built for captive service? If I can use it with it being a real stretch for on a 1950's era northern New England layout, I will get rid of it. At least I can have a more accurate description for e bay.

Thanks,

Jim Fellows

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Santa Fe Tank Car


On Jun 18, 2008, at 5:59 PM, James Fellows wrote:

> I posted a photo of it a while ago in the photo are of the web site:
>
> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/view/7ca9?b=1
>
> I believe it is the Pecos River model. It is brass. I would
> entertain any decent offers on it. No box, foam or trucks.
>

No, it's not the PRB model of the Tk-M, as it has no rivets - the
Santa Fe Tk-M class tank cars were riveted. Also, it's rather
crudely detailed; note the turned brass "lumps" representing the
safety valves and manway cover. I don't know who made it but it
apparently represents one of the postwar 16,500 gal. fuel oil cars
with welded tanks built by GATC for the Santa Fe as classes Tk-N and
Tk-O and, IIRC, for several other RRs as well which were in need of
diesel fuel cars in the late 1940s and early '50s.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: 40' Auto Box

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ben Hom wrote:
Early automobile boxcars held only two finished automobiles. There's a great two-page photo spread in Jack Amerine & Jeff Freeman's "Pennsylvania's X-29 [sic] And Other X's In The Family" in the October 1978 issue of Prototype Modeler showing the loading of automobiles c. 1920.
This may be true, Ben, but very shortly methods were developed using wooden "hurdles" so that one car could be slipped beneath another which had been raised up. Certainly during the 1920s 40-foot cars were handling four cars by this method. The Evans Auto Loader did not emerge until the end of that decade. It was, of course, much quicker for loading and thus a great advantage over the wooden appliances, but it did NOT increase capacity.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Santa Fe Tank Car

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jun 18, 2008, at 5:59 PM, James Fellows wrote:

I posted a photo of it a while ago in the photo are of the web site:

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/view/7ca9?b=1

I believe it is the Pecos River model. It is brass. I would
entertain any decent offers on it. No box, foam or trucks.







No, it's not the PRB model of the Tk-M, as it has no rivets - the
Santa Fe Tk-M class tank cars were riveted. Also, it's rather
crudely detailed; note the turned brass "lumps" representing the
safety valves and manway cover. I don't know who made it but it
apparently represents one of the postwar 16,500 gal. fuel oil cars
with welded tanks built by GATC for the Santa Fe as classes Tk-N and
Tk-O and, IIRC, for several other RRs as well which were in need of
diesel fuel cars in the late 1940s and early '50s.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Santa Fe Tank Car

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

I posted a photo of it a while ago in the photo are of the web site:

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/view/7ca9?b=1

I believe it is the Pecos River model. It is brass. I would
entertain any decent offers on it. No box, foam or trucks.

Jim Fellows
I'm holding a PRB Tk-M in my hands now, and its dome is much lower
relative to the tank diameter than the one on your model. There are a
number of other minor differences as well, but your model is definitely
not a PRB Tk-M.

Tom Madden


Re: Santa Fe Tank Car

Andy Carlson
 

Looks like it might be the PSC much-maligned 16K gallon brass tankcar. I see them go for 40-75 dollars on ebay.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

James Fellows <jamesfellows@...> wrote: I posted a photo of it a while ago in the photo are of the web site:

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/view/7ca9?b=1

I believe it is the Pecos River model. It is brass. I would entertain any decent offers on it. No box, foam or trucks.

Jim Fellows

----- Original Message -----
From: benjaminfrank_hom
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Santa Fe Tank Car

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
"I'm curious about the origin of the model; AFAIK, the only accurate
models of these cars were Pecos River Brass imports dating back to the
mid-'90s; there have never been any plastic models that were remotely
close. If what you have is a PRB car, some Santa Fe modeler somewhere
would very much like to have it. Otherwise, it's a generic model you
can probably paint and letter to represent a prototype car that would
have turned up in Northern New England."

Athearn did a special run of models in Santa Fe Work Train paint and
lettering in 2001 including a tank car; no picture was available on the
Athearn website, but it identifies the tank car as Stock No. ATH1130.
http://tinyurl.com/6bakq3

Ben Hom


Re: Santa Fe Tank Car

James Fellows
 

I posted a photo of it a while ago in the photo are of the web site:

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/view/7ca9?b=1

I believe it is the Pecos River model. It is brass. I would entertain any decent offers on it. No box, foam or trucks.

Jim Fellows

----- Original Message -----
From: benjaminfrank_hom
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Santa Fe Tank Car


Richard Hendrickson wrote:
"I'm curious about the origin of the model; AFAIK, the only accurate
models of these cars were Pecos River Brass imports dating back to the
mid-'90s; there have never been any plastic models that were remotely
close. If what you have is a PRB car, some Santa Fe modeler somewhere
would very much like to have it. Otherwise, it's a generic model you
can probably paint and letter to represent a prototype car that would
have turned up in Northern New England."

Athearn did a special run of models in Santa Fe Work Train paint and
lettering in 2001 including a tank car; no picture was available on the
Athearn website, but it identifies the tank car as Stock No. ATH1130.
http://tinyurl.com/6bakq3

Ben Hom


Re: 40' Auto Box

water.kresse@...
 

It depends --

With two Auto-Loader racks, you might get four or three automobiles in there (only three 1948 Buick V-8 Roadmasters in a 40-ft 6" box)

Some automobile box cars were only equipped with a single Auto-Loader rack. They might get two light, dual-wheel rear axle trucks, less boxes, in there.

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
On Jun 18, 2008, at 6:58 AM, Paul Catapano wrote:

In keeping with Mike Brock's encouragement to ask dumb questions,
How many cars did a 40' Auto Box hold?
Four? Two up and Two Down?
Auto parts? When shipping auto parts did they tend to ship parts in
one size of car and finished auto's in another?
Paul, I will add to the responses of others that, as autos grew
larger in the 1950s, the biggest ones (e.g., Cadillacs and Lincolns)
wouldn't fit in 40' cars and were shipped four at a time in 50' rack-
equipped auto cars.

Richard Hendrickson

121981 - 122000 of 195443